becomming christian from intense fear

[Nadiine]

as far as the other verses quoted in Nadines post they all used the word aion or aionios in the original greek, and many scholars have reasearched these words and discovered that they do not in and of themselves signify eternal. IE the revelations texts actually in the KJV are translated "forever and ever" suggesting that there is more than forever. The original says something like aion of the aions, aion when translated correctly means age so we have age of the ages. this phrase seems to me to be referring to the millenial reign of Christ as it is the most exalted age o9f the ages.
you can find more info on this at
Jesus saves all mankind, the truly Good News, Christian universalism--Ultimate Reconcilation--Doctrine of Inclusion--Restitution of all--Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, Gospel of the Bible
http://hopebeyondhell.net
and talk with some people about this and other UR questions at
http://wisefiretv
blessings in Christ

Jesus does NOT save all mankind - it's refuted all over scripture
and people seem to forget there's an "unpardonable sin" that is
NEVER forgiven in any age.

Instead of typing out all my info, I have a page link
that helps refute this "aion" problem and reveal the serious
flaw in using it the way they would like to (to support a created doctrine)

universalist contradiction of "aion."

and another page on "aionion"
http://www.carm.org/religious-movements/universalism/look-word-aionion

(from main page: http://www.carm.org/religious-movements/universalism)

 

[red77]

Jesus does NOT save all mankind - it's refuted all over scripture
and people seem to forget there's an "unpardonable sin" that is
NEVER forgiven in any age.

Instead of typing out all my info, I have a page link
that helps refute this "aion" problem and reveal the serious
flaw in using it the way they would like to (to support a created doctrine)

universalist contradiction of "aion."

and another page on "aionion"
A look at the word "aionion" | Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry

(from main page: http://www.carm.org/religious-movements/universalism)

It's actually scripture that says that Jesus came to save the world Nadiine. It's a bold claim to say that Jesus couldn't fulfill it. God declares that He is the saviour of ALL men especially of those who believe. You would have it mean "only".

I will ask you this once more. Would it annoy you if all people were reconciled to God?

 

[david_x]

It's actually scripture that says that Jesus came to save the world Nadiine. It's a bold claim to say that Jesus couldn't fulfill it. God declares that He is the saviour of ALL men especially of those who believe. You would have it mean "only".

I will ask you this once more. Would it annoy you if all people were reconciled to God?

That all men might receive eternal life. Can not be given without consent.

 

[red77]

That all men might receive eternal life. Can not be given without consent.

Is God the saviour of all men or not. Is it solely believers?

 

[jarrettcpr]

There is definitely a lot of fear out there. Both for the believer and the non-believer.

For me, a believer and maybe for others out there we see the scripture that says depart from me, and those who say Lord Lord will not all enter the Kingdom of Heaven/God.

Me personally, I wonder about those passages. I thought if you believed Jesus is Lord and died for your sins and also understand you are a sinning machine, than you go to heaven. In those passages it seems like there is 'works' involved than simply saved by faith/belief.

It's hard to know if you're actually saved. There's no real way know for sure. I sometimes wonder if you're scared of hell than that makes you saved, b/c it assumes you believe there is a God, and what Jesus was saying is real, and therefore makes you a believer, but then in those passages even people that called him Lord did not enter the Kingdom of God.

 

[david_x]

Is God the saviour of all men or not. Is it solely believers?

God is the savior to all.

Not all are saved.

 

[Nadiine]

Is God the saviour of all men or not. Is it solely believers?

Satan is also the ENEMY of all men - it certainly doesn't prove that
Satan conquers or owns everyone or ruins everyone...

GOD IS SAVIOUR - It happens to be a Title; and He is one's Saviour
IF (and only if)
man repents and recieves so great a salvation as Christ
has made provision.

Salvation is NOT by force.

He is CREATOR of all as well - it sure doesn't make Atheists
and Hindu's agree that He's their Creator....

 

[preistsplace]

God is the savior to all.

Not all are saved.

If God is the savior of all then all are saved. If even one perishes then he is not the savior of all. The traditional veiw reads into 1 Timothy 4:10 by saying that it only means offered.

 

[Nadiine]

It's actually scripture that says that Jesus came to save the world Nadiine. It's a bold claim to say that Jesus couldn't fulfill it. God declares that He is the saviour of ALL men especially of those who believe. You would have it mean "only".

I will ask you this once more. Would it annoy you if all people were reconciled to God?

What annoys me is when scripture is ignored and manipulated to
suit people's preferences.

So with that said, let's read the actual verse you're using
IN ITS PROPER CONTEXT:

John 3:16-18
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in him should not perish,
but have everlasting life.
17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world;
but that the world through him might be saved.
18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that
believeth not is condemned already,
because he hath not believed in the name
of the only begotten Son of God.

So what we see here is that Christ came to save, but those who
refuse to and do not believe in Jesus Christ are condemned.

His will is that ALL come to repentance - but His permissive will
is that He allows people the ability to reject Him and suffer those
consequences.

This is why you see so many other verses speaking about the
lost and their eventual fate; they die in their sins.
This is also why you see Christ speak about the narrow and
wide paths - the majority take the wide gate into destruction,
the minority take the path to eternal life.

God's ultimate will is for the best of everyone; but clearly,
that is not what ends up happening by His permissive will
that allows people choice and pain.

 

[preistsplace]

Satan is also the ENEMY of all men - it certainly doesn't prove that
Satan conquers or owns everyone or ruins everyone...

GOD IS SAVIOUR - It happens to be a Title; and He is one's Saviour
IF (and only if)
man repents and recieves so great a salvation as Christ
has made provision.

Salvation is NOT by force.

He is CREATOR of all as well - it sure doesn't make Atheists
and Hindu's agree that He's their Creator....

God is Savior of all is the verse we are talking about here...
Savior is a title when it is quantified by all your argument becomes very shaky.
The use of the Satan analogy is completely useless to your arguement
as he is the enemy to all and does not need permision to be the Enemy.
And salvation is not by force. Eventually all seeing the truth will come to it

 

[Nadiine]

If God is the savior of all then all are saved. If even one perishes then he is not the savior of all. The traditional veiw reads into 1 Timothy 4:10 by saying that it only means offered.

That's so false!

Let's use your reasoning here:
2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds
of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel
of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

So since Satan is called 'the god of this world', does that then
mean that Satan is my God and everyone elses?
hmmm.

God is the LIGHT of the world too... it sure doesn't mean all men
SEE the truth about God either.

God is CREATOR of all men - it certainly doesn't prove that all
agree God created them or anything else. Or that God is given
credit by them for such.

See Romans 1 where BECAUSE man refuses to admit He is God
thru visible creation, that God literally turns them over to a
reprobate mind and their own depravity.
I hardly call that people recognizing Him as their Creator OR
accepting Him as Creator.

The fact is that God literally IS ______________ [fill in blank] ALL
these things to all people whether they like it or not or acknowledge
it or not - and that's ONLY BECAUSE IT IS THE TRUTH.
But it never means that all accept Him as such. We see that all thru the
Bible in both testaments.

What we have here is people taking one verse and twisting it
to mean one thing only, while having to utterly ignore the
plethora of other verses that say just the opposite.

 

[Nadiine]

God is Savior of all is the verse we are talking about here...
Savior is a title when it is quantified by all your argument becomes very shaky.
The use of the Satan analogy is completely useless to your arguement
as he is the enemy to all and does not need permision to be the Enemy.
And salvation is not by force. Eventually all seeing the truth will come to it

and HOW do they SEE this truth?

Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—

Thru FAITH. What is salvation? SALVATION IS BY FAITH.

What is faith?
Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

You're version of faith & salvation is when people have died and are IN the
afterlife (see Luke 16), God is literally, visibly PROVEN where they
see God literally on His throne and are facing their inevitable, inescapable judgment!
They literally cannot say any longer that this is not the true God,
they then know that they are guilty before this God for their rejection of
Christ and have sinned.

How is that faith? They're going to be saying and doing anything to
avoid their fate - I'd "repent" too!
We're told to recieve Christ NOW before we harden our hearts,
OR before God stops striving with us.

In Luke 16, Proof Positive was NOT sent to the rich man's family
members (letting the dead go back to warn his family of the place
he ended up), instead he was told this:
27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house,
28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they
will not also come to this place of torment.'
29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets;
let them listen to them.'
30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them,
they will repent.'
31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets,
they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

No visible proof positive of the fate of condemnation would be sent -
it could further be argued that even if they HAD such proof, it
wouldn't convince them to repent!
(it could be that even seeing God face to face wouldn't bring genuine repentance to the lost).

Judas also "repented", but Jesus said in John 17 that Judas was
the only one who was LOST - the son of perdition.
Hardly the words which describe a truly repentant man that
went on to be with the Lord! Judas met and walked with Christ -
Yet wasn't born again!

Then we have the gnashing of teeth in Gehenna. . . again, that isn't
repentance, it's ANGST and derision against God. They're furious.

You see it when God is sending judgments on the rebellious world,

even in knowing God is behind the punishments, this is their response:

1. Revelation 9:20
   And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
   Revelation 9:19-21 (in Context) Revelation 9 (Whole Chapter)
2. Revelation 16:9
   And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
   Revelation 16:8-10 (in Context) Revelation 16 (Whole Chapter)
3. Revelation 16:11
   And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
   

You see it right there! *CAPPING* MEN KNOW GOD IS BEHIND THE JUDGMENTS,
YET BLASPHEME HIM INSTEAD OF REPENTING.
These aren't repentant people even when they know God is true.
How much does it take to prove that people do not love or want YHWY?

Sorry but there is just too much overwhelming evidence that
contradicts universal salvation -
it far outweighs the manipulated verse phrases we find taken out
of their context so often.

Again, you NEED to produce this doctrine where it's clearly taught -
you need it to be defined at the end of Revelation in the
chronological account of judgment and restoration of the creation.

Sadly for Universalists, it just doesn't exist anywhere but in
sentences that get 'read-into' to make it mean what they
want to be the truth.

 

[david_x]

If God is the savior of all then all are saved. If even one perishes then he is not the savior of all. The traditional veiw reads into 1 Timothy 4:10 by saying that it only means offered.

You're right, I misspoke.

God is the savior to all.

 

[preistsplace]

You're right, I misspoke.

God is the savior to all.

that of course is not how scripture puts it (although I can understand where you are coming from)
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

It says he will have all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth.

1Ti 4:9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
1Ti 4:11 These things command and teach.
and also that he is the savior of all especially those that believe.
blessings in Christ

 

[david_x]

That's not what they say, at all.

context, context, context.

 

[preistsplace]

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

 

[angrylittlefisherman]

I would suggest that we grow and mature, so as a child I obeyed my father in fear of a spanking, but as I grew older and matured I recognized that obedience was righteosness and that I loved my father and hence disobeying him hurt my father, so I obeyed, no longer out of fear but out of love. I think that this can be the case with motivations for belief in Christ and the obeying of His Commands. (See the Gospel of St. John Chapter 14)

 

[preistsplace]

That's so false!

Let's use your reasoning here:
2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds
of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel
of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

So since Satan is called 'the god of this world', does that then
mean that Satan is my God and everyone elses?
hmmm.

it means that while here to some extent you are under his power...or have you given up sin all together(I say this as it is A constant battle for the bveliever to live a righteous life)

God is the LIGHT of the world too... it sure doesn't mean all men
SEE the truth about God either.

no some live in darkness

What we have here is people taking one verse and twisting it
to mean one thing only, while having to utterly ignore the
plethora of other verses that say just the opposite.

the same could be said of your position