Be in pain and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion

[Bible2]

eclipsenow said in post #40:

You have no biblical evidence for using Gematrial numbers.

The Biblical evidence for employing gematria with regard to the 666 in Revelation was given in the 2nd part of post #34.

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eclipsenow said in post #40:

You gave no biblical evidence for Android Anti-Christs.

The Biblical evidence for an android "image" of the singular, future Antichrist was given in the 2nd part of post #36.

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eclipsenow said in post #40:

You gave no biblical evidence for your discussion about microchips.

The Biblical evidence for why the mark of the beast won't be microchips was given in post #36.

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eclipsenow said in post #40:

You gave no biblical evidence for scarification.

The Biblical evidence for why the mark could be applied via scarification was given in post #36.

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eclipsenow said in post #40:

You gave no biblical evidence for what to do about Christians who are FORCED (in your scenario) to get a tattoo on their head under restraints and / or drugs.

The Biblical evidence for why a mark forced on us against our will won't result in the loss of our salvation was given in the 2nd part of post #36.

Also, if the mark is forced on us against our will, such as through scarification while we're under restraints, as soon as we're released we should go away and deface the mark, such as with further scarification (by our own hand) in the sign of the Cross, placed across the mark.

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eclipsenow said in post #40:

You gave no biblical evidence for why we should read ANY of Revelation in the future, apart, of course, from the glorious return of Jesus on Judgement Day.

Revelation chapters 6-22 are about (to us) still-future events, "things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1).

Just as the glorious return of Jesus in Revelation 19 has never been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled almost entirely literally in our future, so the highly-detailed events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6-18 have never been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled almost entirely literally in our future. See the end of post #39.

Also, the events of the future tribulation in Matthew 24 have never been fulfilled. For in Matthew 24:15, Jesus said that the church "shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place" (Matthew 24:15). Jesus was referring back to Daniel 11:31, when the man commonly called the Antichrist will with his followers attack a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices offered in front of it, and place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31). The Antichrist himself will also sit in the temple and proclaim himself God (Daniel 11:36, 2 Thessalonians 2:4). These things have never happened.

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While Jesus was speaking with the apostles in the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21), in Jesus' mind all believers of all times are one (John 17:20-21, Ephesians 4:4-5). The events foretold by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse didn't happen in the lifetime of the apostles, or any time since then. They will happen in the future. For example, Luke 21:24 refers to the same future treading down of Jerusalem by the Gentiles as Revelation 11:2b. And Luke 19:44 wasn't fulfilled in 70 AD or any time since then, for the stones of the Wailing Wall in Jerusalem still stand one on top of the other, just as they did when Jesus spoke that prophecy. Luke 19:44 requires that every wall in Jerusalem will be destroyed in the future. This could occur at the very end of the coming tribulation, right before and/or at the second coming of Jesus (Zechariah 14:2-21).

(Continued in next post)

 

[Bible2]

(Continued from prior post)

Regarding other never-fulfilled events of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18/Matthew 24, it will begin with a horrible war, which, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, will end up killing a fourth of the world (Revelation 6:4-8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons.

After that, there will be a terrible series of natural disasters historically unprecedented in their magnitude, such as a gigantic volcanic eruption (Revelation 6:12-14), possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera, and then the collapse into the ocean of another volcano (Revelation 8:8-9), possibly one of the Canary Islands, the collapse of which could set up a huge tsunami which could destroy the Eastern seaboard of the U.S. If such a tsunami occurs, it could cause a string of awful, Fukushima-style nuclear-meltdown radiation disasters in the nuclear power plants and their nuclear-waste storage facilities along the Eastern seaboard of the U.S. Also, if the tsunami breaks open the germ-containment structures on Plum Island, just off the coast of Connecticut, especially-deadly viruses and bacteria could be washed inland and spread across the U.S. as they infect animals and people.

After the volcanic activity and possible tsunami, a comet will strike the earth (Revelation 8:10-11), possibly in the U.S./Canadian Great Lakes region. As the comet falls from the sky it will look like a great star, or like a burning lamp in the sky (Revelation 8:10). It will strike a region of the earth which contains a third of the world's fresh surface water (Revelation 8:10b), and it will contain some poisonous element which will poison that third of the world's fresh surface water so that many who drink from it will die (Revelation 8:11b).

After that will come a one-two punch of what the world could initially try to interpret as being two different alien invasions, the first "aliens" being weird locust-like beings which will suddenly swarm up from the bottomless pit of the earth to torment mankind with excruciating stings for five months (Revelation 9:2-10). They will be led by a fallen angel named Abaddon (Revelation 9:11). The world could see the weird locust-like beings coming up from the ground as aliens who had been hibernating for thousands of years in a cavern deep within the earth's crust. The locust-like beings won't kill anyone, but they will make those they sting want to die the pain will be so bad (Revelation 9:5-6).

After the locust-like beings have stung mankind for five months, an army of 200,000,000 weird horse-like beings will come upon the earth and kill a third of mankind (Revelation 9:16-19). This army will be led by four powerful fallen angels who will be released from being bound at the Euphrates river (Revelation 9:14-15). If the army of horse-like beings descends from the sky in spaceships, the world could at first see them as a different race of aliens, but the Antichrist could (falsely) say that they're the main army of YHWH. In fact, the army could be loyal to Lucifer/Satan instead. The four fallen angels could employ the army to make mankind completely desperate before its complete takeover by Lucifer (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) mid-tribulation (Revelation 12:9-13:18).

For when the army of 200,000,000 weird horse-like beings starts killing a third of mankind (Revelation 9:16-19), then could also begin the biggest deception ever wrought upon mankind (besides the original one in Eden: Genesis 3). For the Antichrist, who by that time could have managed to have been elected as the President of a Mediterranean Union formed by the joining of the European Union with an Arab Union stretching from Oman to Morocco, could announce to the world that he has sent a mental distress call to (what he could call) "My Father, our Lord Lucifer, to come with his legions of angels and rescue mankind from this murderous army of YHWH".

It's at this point that Lucifer (Satan) and his angels could be cast down out of heaven to the earth for good after losing a war in heaven (Revelation 12:7-9). But instead of coming down as a defeated force, they could descend for all the world to see in magnificent, gigantic golden spaceships onto the "Champ de Mars" (Mars being the same as Marduk, the chief god of ancient Babylon), the large open area in front of the Eiffel Tower in Paris. And Lucifer, a literal, seven-headed dragon (Revelation 12:3,9) could emerge in great splendor and command his legions of angels to destroy the army of 200,000,000 weird horse-like beings.

Lucifer could then confirm that he has come to rescue mankind because the Antichrist, who he could say is his only-begotten "Son", was able to send out a mental distress call to his "Father" Lucifer in heaven to come to the rescue with his legions of angels (like an Antichrist counterfeit of Matthew 26:53: "Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?"). Lucifer and the Antichrist could then be received wholeheartedly by the unsaved world as the saviors of mankind. And the unsaved world could be left thinking (mistakenly) that Lucifer and his angels were more powerful than even the main army of YHWH.

Lucifer and the Antichrist, along with the Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet, will then deceive the world into actually worshipping Lucifer (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast), and a speaking image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-16, Revelation 19:20, 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And everyone will be made to receive a mark of the Antichrist either on their right hand or forehead, consisting of either the Antichrist's name or some representation of the gematrial number of his name (Revelation 13:16-18).

During his worldwide reign, the Antichrist will turn the world against YHWH, speaking terrible things against him (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). The Antichrist could lie and say that it was YHWH who sent against mankind not only the army of 200,000,000 weird horse-like beings, but all the preceding, natural disasters of the tribulation (Revelation 6:12-14, Revelation 8:7-12), when in fact it could be Lucifer and his fallen angels who did all of that from behind the scenes, so that they could subsequently arrive on the world stage as if they were the good guys come to rescue mankind from YHWH.

They could promise mankind that they will help it to defeat YHWH and to escape (what they could call) "YHWH's vile prison house of this material universe, and return to the heavenly, spiritual realm of bliss, the Pleroma, where mankind existed in pure-spirit form from all eternity, before by some mishap mankind fell into YHWH's trap and became enmeshed in the material realm". This lie is what Gnosticism teaches. The Antichrist will be a Gnostic, for he will revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36) and deny that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3). The Antichrist will at the same time also be a Luciferian, for he will bring the world into the worship of Lucifer (Satan) the dragon (Revelation 13:4). The Antichrist could present him to the world as (in his words) "Our Lord Lucifer, the Savior of mankind. He will free us from YHWH's tyranny and lead us back into the Pleroma to live in bliss forever".

After Lucifer and the Antichrist have completely deceived the world and ruled it ruthlessly for 3.5 years (Revelation 13:4-18), YHWH will send his seven vials of wrath (also called the seven last plagues: Revelation 21:9) against the unsaved world (Revelation 16). Those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at the time of the vials, still waiting for Jesus' second coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15), will go into protective chambers which they will have built for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had built for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7).

Near the end of the vials of wrath, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer (the dragon), the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13), and these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the armies of the world to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) in an attempt to fight and defeat YHWH himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). After gathering together at Armageddon, the armies will then travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus Christ (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:21-20:6).

Jesus could return 1,335 days after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place of a third Jewish temple (Daniel 12:11-12, Matthew 24:15). The 75 days between the end of the 1,260 days of the worldwide reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:5-8, Revelation 12:6) and the return of Jesus (Revelation 19:7-21) could be taken up by the seven vials of God's wrath which will be poured out on the Antichrist and his followers (Revelation 16).

When Jesus returns, immediately after the coming tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18/Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7-21), he will descend bodily from heaven on a white horse (1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 19:7-21, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) with all the holy angels (Matthew 25:31, 2 Thessalonians 1:7) for all the world to see (Matthew 24:27,30, Revelation 1:7). Then those in the church will be resurrected or changed in the twinkling of an eye into immortal bodies (1 Thessalonians 4:16, 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Revelation 20:4-6). Then the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1) only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge the church (Psalms 50:4-5, cf. Mark 13:27, 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48) and then marry the church (Revelation 19:7) in the clouds, before the church mounts white horses and descends back down from sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he wages war against, and completely defeats, the armies of the world (Revelation 19:19,21). Jesus will at that time also defeat the Antichrist and the False Prophet (Revelation 19:20), and will have Lucifer/Satan bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3).

Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the just-resurrected and married church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9, 1 Corinthians 15:54), while the birds will feast on the corpses of the defeated armies of the world (Revelation 19:17-18). Then Jesus and the resurrected and changed church (1 Corinthians 15:51-53), including those in the church who had been beheaded by the Antichrist, will rule the surviving nations with a rod of iron for the full 1,000 years of the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2).

After the 1,000 years are over, Lucifer/Satan will be released from the bottomless pit and by deception bring about the Gog/Magog rebellion, only to be defeated for the last time (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39). At least seven years after the defeat of the Gog/Magog rebellion (Ezekiel 39:9b), the great white throne judgment will occur, in which all those who hadn't been resurrected and judged at Jesus' return will be resurrected and judged (Revelation 20:11-15). After the great white throne judgment, God will create a new heaven (a new first heaven: a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1, 2 Peter 3:10b,13).

Then God the Father will descend from the third heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:3), and he will dwell on the new earth with Jesus and the church in New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:3). In one area outside the walls of New Jerusalem on the new earth will be the lake of fire (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8) in which all of unsaved humanity will be punished forever in fire and brimstone with Lucifer/Satan and his fallen angels (Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).

 

[Bible2]

eclipsenow said in post #40:

. . . you ignored all the other verses Calvin quotes that show true Christians *will* persevere to the end.

Note that no scripture requires that every truly saved person will necessarily persevere to the end.

Calvinism's mistaken doctrine of OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) through assured perseverance unwittingly ends up logically requiring that saved people are robots. For if saved people can't possibly choose to do evil to the point where they can ultimately lose their salvation, then they no longer have free will.

Also, the mistaken doctrine of assured perseverance unwittingly ends up logically requiring that a Christian can have no present assurance that he's truly saved. For if a Christian who doesn't persevere unto the end was never truly saved, then no Christian can presently have the assurance that he's truly saved, because no Christian can know if he will persevere unto the end. Down the road he could still fail to persevere, and so end up showing that all the time he was only a fake Christian, a self-deceived hypocrite.

But under true, Biblical doctrine, every believer in the gospel (of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31) can know with perfect assurance that he's presently saved (1 John 5:13, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) if when he became a believer in the gospel he repented from his sins (1 John 3:6) and confessed them to God (1 John 1:9). And he can be sure that as a saved person he can never be separated from the love of God, so long as he loves God (Romans 8:28-39), which means actually obeying him (1 John 5:3, John 14:21-24).

And no matter how many tests a saved person fails during his lifetime (sometime subsequent to his initial repentance), even if he fails and commits sin 70 times 7 times in a single day (cf. Matthew 18:21-22, Luke 17:4), he can be sure that so long as he sincerely repents from every sin and confesses it to God, he will be completely forgiven (1 John 1:9). He will only lose his salvation in the end if he wrongly employs his free will to do something like committing a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or becoming utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6, 2 Timothy 2:12).

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eclipsenow said in post #40:

That's the work of the Holy Spirit.

While God makes it possible for saved people to do the right thing (Philippians 2:13, John 15:4-5), God doesn't take away their free will, turning them into robots, or into macabre flesh puppets, mere marionettes which he forces to dance across the stage as he pulls on their strings. Thank God that, instead, he leaves all saved people as his real children with free will. And because he leaves them with free will, they themselves have to choose each and every day for the rest of their lives to deny themselves, to take up their crosses themselves, and to continue to follow Jesus unto the end (Luke 9:23, Matthew 24:13). But there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (e.g. Matthew 25:26,30, Luke 12:45-46, Luke 8:13).

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eclipsenow said in post #40:

So, let me see, this verse was no good for anyone who spoke Latin because it was intended to be interpreted by the English?

Revelation 13:17c-18 can be properly interpreted (as requiring the employment of gematria) even by people who don't speak English. For example, Irenaeus (born c. 140 AD) said "this number [666] being found in all the most approved and ancient copies [of Revelation], and those men who saw John face to face bearing their testimony; while reason also leads us to conclude that the number of the name of the beast, according to the Greek mode of calculation by the [value of] the letters contained in it, will amount to six hundred and sixty and six" (Against Heresies 5:30:1).

This mode of calculation, or method of gematria, is the same in the Greek alphabet, the Hebrew alphabet, and any other alphabet: the first nine letters in the alphabet are 1 through 9, the next nine letters are 10 through 90 (counting by tens), and the rest of the letters are 100, 200, 300, etc., to the end of the alphabet.

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But the gematrial principle of Revelation 13:17c-18 most likely should be employed in the English alphabet during the future time of the Antichrist, for the reasons given in the 2nd part of post #39.

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eclipsenow said in post #40:

The verse says to calculate a NUMBER, not a name!

The number of a name (Revelation 13:17c-18, Revelation 15:2), which is ascertained through gematria.

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eclipsenow said in post #40:

Keep in mind that the footnote to the NIV [e] says "Or is humanity’s number".

The original Greek of Revelation 13:18 can mean that 666 is "the number of a man", meaning the gematrial number of the name (Revelation 13:17c-18) of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast). 666 isn't the gematrial number of the names of all men.

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eclipsenow said in post #40:

Man was created on the Sixth Day.

So were all the other land animals (Genesis 1:24-27).

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eclipsenow said in post #40:

Man works six days.

So do some draft animals. And both man and they can work seven days if man wants to.

Regarding keeping the sabbath, believers, both Jews and Gentiles, don't need to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law sabbath, because even the letter of the ten commandments written and engraven in stones (2 Corinthians 3:7, Deuteronomy 4:13) was part of the abolished Old Covenant Mosaic law ministration of death (2 Corinthians 3:6-7, e.g. Numbers 15:32-36) which has been replaced by the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34) ministration of the spirit (2 Corinthians 3:6-18), in which Christians are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, and keep the spirit (Romans 7:6) of all the Old Covenant Mosaic law commandments by loving others (Romans 13:8-10).

Saying that believers have to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law sabbath is just as wrong as, for example, saying that believers have to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law circumcision (Acts 15:1-11). If believers keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law sabbath thinking that they have to, they're as fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4) as those believers who keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law circumcision thinking that they have to (Galatians 5:2). They've become debtors to perform the letter of the entire Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 5:3); they've placed themselves under its curse (Galatians 3:10).

So no believer should ever desire to go back into bondage under the letter of any part of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 4:21-5:8). Believers need to keep the sabbath only in spirit, not in the letter (Romans 7:6). Believers must never judge other believers for not keeping the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law sabbath (Colossians 2:16), which letter was abolished as a requirement on the New Covenant Cross of Jesus Christ, along with all the rest of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Colossians 2:14-17, Ephesians 2:15-16, Hebrews 7:18-19, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 10), for its letter is merely a shadow; now it all comes down to Jesus Christ himself (Colossians 2:17).

Jesus' New Covenant sabbath rest (Matthew 11:28-30), which all believers enter into by faith (Hebrews 4:3-4), exceeds in righteousness (cf. Matthew 5:20) the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law sabbath. For under the New Covenant sabbath, Christians must cease from their own works every day of the week (Hebrews 4:3,10, Luke 9:23). And they can esteem every day of the week (Romans 14:5).

Christians should be worshipping God every day of the week (Hebrews 13:15, cf. Psalms 145:2), and they should be meeting together every day of the week (Hebrews 3:13, Hebrews 10:25), at least in some fashion (Matthew 18:20).

The early church started assembling together on the Lord's day (commonly called Sunday) instead of on the sabbath (commonly called Saturday) because the Lord's day was the day on which Jesus Christ rose from the dead: "no longer observing the sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him" (Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians, chapter 9. Ignatius was a contemporary of John the apostle; cf. John's reference to "the Lord's day" in Revelation 1:10).

But it's not a requirement for Christians to assemble together only on the Lord's day, or to esteem the Lord's day above every other day of the week. It's also okay for Christians to choose to assemble together on the sabbath because they esteem the sabbath above every other day of the week. It's also okay for Christians to esteem every day of the week. Christians are never to judge each other over this matter, but are simply to do what they believe Jesus wants them as individuals to do (Romans 14:4-13). So the point is not for Christians to esteem days, but to focus upon the person of Jesus Christ himself (Colossians 2:16-17).

 

[Bible2]

eclipsenow said in post #40:

. . . here the number is repeated 3 times . . .

In the original Greek Textus Receptus, the number of the Antichrist's name (Revelation 13:17c-18) isn't represented by one number repeated three times, but by three different Greek letters (Chi, Xi, and Stigma), the gematrial values of which (600, 60, and 6) must be added together to arrive at the total number (six hundred and sixty-six) we represent today in decimal notation and Arabic numerals as 666. Before the West adopted decimal notation and Arabic numerals, the West used Roman numerals, in which the number six hundred and sixty-six was represented by DCLXVI.

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eclipsenow said in post #40:

. . . this is mankind trying to impersonate the trinity (777).

The number of the Antichrist's name is six hundred and sixty-six (Revelation 13:17c-18), which could be represented in some cases in a disguised form that looks like "777". For the sixth letter of the ancient Hebrew alphabet (Vav) represents the number 6, but it looks like a "7".

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eclipsenow said in post #40:

If the Mark of the Beast is a literal scarification of the forehead, is the Mark of the Lord?

The mark of the Lord, while it won't have to be applied by scarification, could still be a literal, visible mark. For just as Exodus 28:36-38 shows that God's name (in a phrase "engraved" on a gold plate on a mitre) was placed visibly "on" the forehead of Aaron himself (Exodus 28:38), so Revelation 3:12 shows that, sometime in the future, God's name will be "written" (grapho) directly "on" (epi) each overcomer himself, on "him" (autos); and Revelation 22:4 shows that it will be written on his forehead.

The "writing" (grapho) in Revelation 3:12 (cf. Revelation 22:4) can be literal, just as the "writing" (grapho) in its immediate context was literal (Revelation 3:7,14).

But before this is fulfilled, there will be a Luciferian counterfeit of it, during the Antichrist's future, worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), when it will be the Antichrist's name which will be marked (Revelation 14:11c) directly "on" (epi) some people's foreheads (Revelation 13:16-17), probably through scarification. For one of the definitions of "charagma" (the original Greek word used in Revelation 13:16 to refer to the mark) is a scratch or etching, and scarification is the scratching or etching (i.e. the cutting) of the skin to leave a permanent mark. The reason people will be given the mark in Revelation 13:16, in the context of what had been shown just previously in Revelation 13:4,8,15, will be to serve as a visible indicator to other people that they're loyal worshippers of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) himself (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9) and of the Antichrist and his image (Revelation 13:4,8,15), just as some Luciferians today put a mark on themselves by scarification.

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eclipsenow said in post #40:

Chapter 14.

1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. ///

Are you saying I'm not saved if I don't have a literal mark on my forehead?

No, because that mark will be applied in the future.

Just as Revelation 14:1 means that Jesus Christ (the "Lamb": Revelation 13:8b, John 1:29) and the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church (Revelation 14:4) will at the mid-point of the coming tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18 be literally standing on (epi) the heavenly Mt. Zion (cf. Hebrews 12:22), before the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:5, TR), so Revelation 14:1 means that the 144,000 will have the name of YHWH literally written on (epi) their foreheads.

Eventually, sometime in the future, sometime after Revelation 14:1 occurs, all obedient Christians (not just the 144,000) will have the name of God literally written on (epi) their foreheads (Revelation 22:4) by Jesus Christ himself (Revelation 3:12).

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eclipsenow said in post #40:

. . . the 144,000 is again a number to figure the meaning of . . .

As was pointed out in post #32, the number 144,000 in Revelation 7:4 and Revelation 14:1,3 is a literal number of people, which will consist of twelve groups with 12,000 people in each group (Revelation 7:5-8).

Similarly, the 144,000 will be literal male virgins, never having had intercourse with women (Revelation 14:4), just as 1 Corinthians 7:25 refers to literal virgins.

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See post #32's detailed look at the 144,000.

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eclipsenow said in post #40:

By the way, since when did God have Seven Spirits of God? Why is that literal! I thought there was only 1 Holy Spirit!

The one Holy Spirit of God can at the same time be seven Spirits of God (Isaiah 11:2, Revelation 1:4, Revelation 3:1, Revelation 4:5, Revelation 5:6), just as the one God can at the same time be three Persons (Matthew 28:19).

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eclipsenow said in post #40:

But it is revealed through symbolism.

Revelation is almost entirely literal. See the last part of post #39.

 

[eclipsenow]

The Biblical evidence for employing gematria with regard to the 666 in Revelation was given in the 2nd part of post #34.

There was NO biblical evidence, and just saying there there was does not mean there actually was!

The Biblical evidence for an android "image" of the singular, future Antichrist was given in the 2nd part of post #36.

Ha ha! That's just FUNNY coming from someone who says we are to read Revelation LITERALLY! Hey, if you can just look up the Ancient Greek for 'Android' for us, that would be great. Same for microchip please.

Also, if the mark is forced on us against our will, such as through scarification while we're under restraints, as soon as we're released we should go away and deface the mark, such as with further scarification (by our own hand) in the sign of the Cross, placed across the mark.

Well, I guess it's good to know that works can save us then! ;-)

Revelation chapters 6-22 are about (to us) still-future events, "things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1).

Just repeating the *same* failed arguments doesn't make them right.

Revelation has no more 'future prediction' in it than the basic gospel: trust in Jesus Christ or perish on the Day of Judgement, because on one MYSTERIOUS day, the Lord will return. See, there is no language shift between the passages that talk about Jesus having 7 horns and 7 eyes and a sword coming out of his mouth and the rest of the book. It's all the same style. It's all highly symbolic biblical imagery! I can at least point to other places in the bible where these things occurred and give a theological reason why they are placed together, and what they mean.

YOU, on the other hand, do VIOLENCE to the passages by insisting on talking about 'androids' and 'microchips'! Oh the irony! Yet YOU are the one saying we need to read these verses LITERALLY? Really? Wow. I suggest you look the word 'literal' up in a dictionary!

Matthew 24 is Jesus simply predicting the fall of the temple, which is intimately connected with Daniel 9. Daniel 9 explains that Israel can only be forgiven fully after Israel is restored in their 'year of jubilee' (every 49th year, or 7 * 7's). Then Daniel 9 predicts the WONDERFUL news that Israel will be FULLY forgiven, a 10 Times Jubilee year, 70 7's. But it will come at a cost. The Messiah will be cut off. He will also make a New Covenant which will put an end to sacrifice. Why? Because he is the ULTIMATE sacrifice! As Jesus said, he would destroy the TRUE temple and raise it again in 3 days. As Jesus said to Peter, we need to forgive people just like God forgives us, SEVENTY TIMES SEVEN!

So Jesus picks all of these details up in Matthew 24, as he sadly gazes down on Jerusalem and thinks of his death. He's the reason the temple is going to be destroyed! HE is the 'abomination that causes desolation', the original cause of the destruction of the Holy Place, because HE is the true Holy Place!

So Matthew 24 is not really an end times timetable, but yet another glimpse of the gospel. Jesus DOES jump in his thinking to the end of history on judgement Day, but that's only to complete the gospel and contrast his final return with all the silly imposters that would come throughout history.

So try again! The Olivet Discourse DID happen in the lifetime of the apostles, apart from the final Judgement Day. (Of course!) The destruction of the temple falls under 'these things' that would happen in that generation. The irony is that the Day of the Lord is the complete and shocking surprise that we will have NO WARNING about towards the end of Chapter 24. How people can read this upside down and inside out to somehow become a PREDICTION of his return I simply do not know!

PS: Appealing to the existence of the "Wailing Wall" is a bit of special pleading really. That's just silly. It's an outside wall of the temple mount, not the temple itself. The temple is gone. The Olivett prophecies about the abomination were fulfilled. Jesus died, and then Titus came and stuck an eagle in the courtyard and the soldiers sacrificed to the Eagle standard as to a god. There are layers of 'abomination' here, too inter-related to pull apart. It's all fulfilled in multiple historical layers, but fulfilled it is.

I REFUSE TO READ OR ADDRESS ANYTHING MORE THAN 1 POST AT A TIME.

THIS IS A PLACE FOR CONVERSATION.

THIS IS NOT A PLACE WHERE YOU GET TO LECTURE ME WITH ENDLESS PAGES OF YOUR OPINIONS.

TRY TO BE CONCISE.

(QUICKLY CLOSES BROWSER TO ESCAPE THE ENDLESS PAGES OF SPAM!)

 

[Bible2]

eclipsenow said in post #45:

There was NO biblical evidence, and just saying there there was does not mean there actually was!

Note that the Biblical evidence for the use of gematria in Revelation 13:17c-18 (Textus Receptus) is in those verses themselves, as was indicated in the 2nd part of post #34.

That's just FUNNY coming from someone who says we are to read Revelation LITERALLY! Hey, if you can just look up the Ancient Greek for 'Android' for us, that would be great.

Note that the original Greek word translated as "image" in Revelation 13:14-15 could be fulfilled literally by an android image, as was shown in the 2nd part of post #36.

Same for microchip please.

Note that it hasn't been said that the mark of the beast will be a microchip. See post #36.

Well, I guess it's good to know that works can save us then! ;-)

While initial salvation is by grace through faith without works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:1-5), both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law) are required in order to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21). See post #38.

Revelation has no more 'future prediction' in it than the basic gospel: trust in Jesus Christ or perish on the Day of Judgement, because on one MYSTERIOUS day, the Lord will return.

Actually, only Revelation 19 is about the return of the Lord. The preceding chapters 6-18 are about the future tribulation which will precede his return.

Regarding "on one MYSTERIOUS day, the Lord will return", are you thinking of, for example, Matthew 24:36,42,44? If so, note that Jesus had just finished saying that his return won't happen until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30). So in Matthew 24:42,44, Jesus could mean that only if believers don't watch (stay awake, spiritually) during the tribulation, his second coming will happen at an hour they don't know/think not (cf. the if principle of Revelation 3:3b). In the immediate context of Matthew 24:42,44, Jesus suggests that it is possible for believers to know when his second coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a, cf. 1 Thessalonians 5:4).

Also, Jesus says "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36), he doesn't say "of that day and hour no man will know". So it's possible that at some point in the future some believers will come to know the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus' second coming before it happens. (For more, see the "knowing" part of christianforums.com/blogs/u77506-e15103/ .)

See, there is no language shift between the passages that talk about Jesus having 7 horns and 7 eyes and a sword coming out of his mouth and the rest of the book. It's all the same style. It's all highly symbolic biblical imagery!

Actually, Revelation is almost entirely literal. See the last part of post #39.

I can at least point to other places in the bible where these things occurred and give a theological reason why they are placed together, and what they mean.

Then please present your view of what each of the tribulation details in Revelation chapters 6-18 means.

YOU, on the other hand, do VIOLENCE to the passages by insisting on talking about 'androids' and 'microchips'! Oh the irony! Yet YOU are the one saying we need to read these verses LITERALLY? Really? Wow. I suggest you look the word 'literal' up in a dictionary!

Note that saying that the "image" in Revelation 13:14-15 could be fulfilled literally by an android image does no violence to those verses. See the 2nd part of post #36.

Also, note again that it hasn't been said that the mark of the beast will be a microchip. See post #36.

Matthew 24 is Jesus simply predicting the fall of the temple, which is intimately connected with Daniel 9.

Regarding Daniel 9:27's "he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease", that refers first to Jesus' crucifixion, which caused the Old Covenant Mosaic law's animal sacrifices for sin to cease, as far as God was concerned (Hebrews 10:8,9,10,18, Matthew 26:28). But the unbelieving Jews kept on offering those animal sacrifices anyway, for decades after the Crucifixion, until the second temple was destroyed in 70 AD.

Daniel 9:27's "he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" also includes reference to when, in the future, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty of Daniel 9:27a/Daniel 11:23a, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack a third Jewish temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices offered in front of it, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place of the temple (Daniel 9:27c, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

Daniel 9 explains that Israel can only be forgiven fully after Israel is restored in their 'year of jubilee' (every 49th year, or 7 * 7's).

Actually, the year of jubile was every 50th year (Leviticus 25:11).

Also, note that Daniel 9 makes no reference to the year of jubile.

Then Daniel 9 predicts the WONDERFUL news that Israel will be FULLY forgiven, a 10 Times Jubilee year, 70 7's.

Note that a ten times jubile year would be 500 years.

But it will come at a cost. The Messiah will be cut off. He will also make a New Covenant which will put an end to sacrifice. Why? Because he is the ULTIMATE sacrifice!

In Daniel 9:26, the original Hebrew word (karath, H3772) translated as "cut off" can refer to when a peace treaty/covenant is "made" (e.g. Genesis 21:27b). The first-century AD fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a was at the Crucifixion, when the true Messiah (Jesus) made the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17), which covenant was the first-century AD fulfillment of the covenant in Daniel 9:27a.

The future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a will be when the Antichrist makes a peace treaty, which will be the future fulfillment of the covenant in Daniel 9:27a and the league in Daniel 11:23a, with a future ultra-Orthodox Jewish (false) Messiah in Jerusalem, after he and his followers are defeated by the Antichrist (Daniel 11:22-23a). So the future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a can refer to this false Messiah being "cut off" in the sense of his being "covenanted", i.e. peace-treatied.

This treaty will allow him and his followers to keep a third Jewish temple (which they will have built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount by that time, after destroying all the Muslim structures there), and to continue to perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of the temple for at least seven more years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims so they can rebuild the (by that time destroyed) Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there.

After "cutting" this treaty (Daniel 9:26a), the Antichrist could appear before the "many" (Daniel 9:27) nations gathered at a session of the U.N. General Assembly, and "confirm" (Daniel 9:27) with them that for at least seven years he will keep this treaty with the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem. He could use this as purported proof to the world that he is, in his words, "a man of peace", and "no Hitler".

As Jesus said, he would destroy the TRUE temple and raise it again in 3 days.

Note that in John 2:19, Jesus made no reference to a single "true" temple, because there's more than one. For while Jesus' individual human body is a temple of God (John 2:21), at the time of Jesus' first coming, his body-temple co-existed with the second temple building in Jerusalem, which was also indwelt by God at the same time (Matthew 23:21). And his body-temple also co-existed (and still co-exists today) with the literal temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19). There is now also the church-as-a-whole figurative temple building (Ephesians 2:21), and the temple of every Christian's individual human body (1 Corinthians 6:19). There will also be a third, earthly, literal temple building in Jerusalem during the future tribulation (Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, 2 Thessalonians 2:4).

As Jesus said to Peter, we need to forgive people just like God forgives us, SEVENTY TIMES SEVEN!

Amen (Matthew 18:21-35, cf. Matthew 6:15).

So Jesus picks all of these details up in Matthew 24, as he sadly gazes down on Jerusalem and thinks of his death. He's the reason the temple is going to be destroyed! HE is the 'abomination that causes desolation', the original cause of the destruction of the Holy Place, because HE is the true Holy Place!

Note that there's more than one true holy place, because there's more than one true temple of God (see above).

Also, Matthew 24:15 is referring back to Daniel 11:31.

The abomination of desolation in Daniel 11:31 was typically fulfilled by the abomination of desolation in 1 Maccabees 1:54, which occurred in the holy place of the second temple building at the time of Antiochus IV Epiphanes. But per Matthew 24:15, the church will see the abomination of desolation in Daniel 11:31 fulfilled (antitypically) in the future, when the church will see the abomination of desolation "stand" "in" the holy place of the temple building (which will exist in the future).

This future abomination of desolation could be a standing, android image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15) which his followers ("they") will place in the holy place of the third Jewish temple (Daniel 11:31) to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15), after "they" have stopped the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices which the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel will have restarted in front of the temple (Daniel 11:31). This image will "pollute" the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31). The Antichrist will then fulfill Daniel 11:36/2 Thessalonians 2:4 by sitting himself in the temple and proclaiming himself God. He will then rule and be worshipped by all the nations of the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-8), and will physically overcome Biblical Christians in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4).

Also, from the day on which (antitypically) "the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days" (Daniel 12:11-12, cf. Revelation 16:15).

Also, because the Antichrist will fulfill Daniel 11:31 antitypically and will fulfill Daniel 11:36 for the first (and only) time, then he will also fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 (the first part of it antitypically, and the rest for the first and only time) when he arises on the world stage, because that passage refers to the career of the same man. And since the Antichrist will fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 when he arises on the world stage, then just preceding his arising on the world stage, Daniel 11:13-19 could be antitypically fulfilled by an Iraqi Baathist General defeating and occupying Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17, the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

So Matthew 24 is not really an end times timetable, but yet another glimpse of the gospel. Jesus DOES jump in his thinking to the end of history on judgement Day, but that's only to complete the gospel and contrast his final return with all the silly imposters that would come throughout history.

So try again! The Olivet Discourse DID happen in the lifetime of the apostles, apart from the final Judgement Day. (Of course!) The destruction of the temple falls under 'these things' that would happen in that generation. The irony is that the Day of the Lord is the complete and shocking surprise that we will have NO WARNING about towards the end of Chapter 24. How people can read this upside down and inside out to somehow become a PREDICTION of his return I simply do not know!

Actually, Matthew 24 is an end-times timetable, just as the highly-detailed events of Revelation chapters 6-19 are, insofar as they both show what has to happen during the (still-unfulfilled) tribulation before Jesus' return immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7-20:6).

See the last part of post #41.

PS: Appealing to the existence of the "Wailing Wall" is a bit of special pleading really. That's just silly. It's an outside wall of the temple mount, not the temple itself. The temple is gone. The Olivett prophecies about the abomination were fulfilled. Jesus died, and then Titus came and stuck an eagle in the courtyard and the soldiers sacrificed to the Eagle standard as to a god. There are layers of 'abomination' here, too inter-related to pull apart. It's all fulfilled in multiple historical layers, but fulfilled it is.

Actually, the abomination of desolation (Daniel 11:31/Matthew 24:15) hasn't been antitypically fulfilled yet, but will be when Daniel 11:36/2 Thessalonians 2:4 is also fulfilled (for the first and only time) in our future.

Also, Matthew 24:2 included the Western or Wailing Wall (which still stands one stone upon another), for Matthew 24:2 isn't referring only to the single temple building in the center of the Temple Mount, but to "all these things", all the plural "buildings"/structures/oikodome (G3619) of the entire temple complex (Matthew 24:1).

Indeed, Matthew 24:2 could even have been spoken right next to the Wailing Wall, for it was spoken just after Jesus had departed from the temple complex (Matthew 24:1), and one of the main temple complex exit ramps (called Wilson's Arch and bridge by archaeologists) exited the temple complex just to the north of the Wailing Wall (see the temple complex map insert in the December, 2008 issue of National Geographic magazine).

Also, the "here" in Matthew 24:2 included not just the entire temple complex, but every structure throughout the whole city of Jerusalem, for the similar statement by Jesus in Luke 19:44 applied to the whole city (Luke 19:41-44).

 

[eclipsenow]

Note that the Biblical evidence for the use of gematria in Revelation 13:17c-18 (Textus Receptus) is in those verses themselves, as was indicated in the 2nd part of post #34.

You mean verse 3, Chapter 9, of Book 10 of post 1020459 of yours?? Oh dear, somehow I missed it. Could you just copy and paste it? If I go back and witness the full extent of your spam I might get a little cranky.

Note that the original Greek word translated as "image" in Revelation 13:14-15 could be fulfilled literally by an android image, as was shown in the 2nd part of post #36.

You're having us on, aren't you? Are you *sure* you know what the word literally actually means?

I read a lot of sci-fi, and I've never heard of Androids being referred to as 'images' before. That's just silly. You're inserting your own wild ideas into the text. I want you to either find the word Android in the text, or retract this silliness immediately.

While initial salvation is by grace through faith without works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:1-5), both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law) are required in order to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21). See post #38.

Continuing to trust in Christ is essential, yes, but it's a gift of God nevertheless. But you're just dodging the issue! I don't read anywhere else in the bible that says a tattoo on my head can send me to hell! I don't see how that even fits with the gospel!

Actually, Revelation is almost entirely literal. See the last part of post #39.

Oh, *right*, like Jesus has a sword coming out of his mouth and 7 horns and 7 eyes. Oh, what? THAT bit is Symbolic? Really? Gee, and when the writing and imagery ALL through Revelation has multiple uses of seven and horns and eyes and other Jewish power and number symbols, exactly WHY are you reading those verses 'literally' (which you aren't doing anyway, you only CLAIM to) and not the verses about Jesus having 7 eyes and 7 horns? Hmmm? Everything ELSE in the book reads EXACTLY the same way! There are 7's and not-quite-sevens (666) and half 7's (3.5 years) and 10's and 12's and 12 times 12 times 1000 and all manner of SYMBOLIC Jewish numbers, let alone the imagery.

To claim this is literal is just ridiculous and anti-reason and anti-thinking and anti-bible! It's just STUBBORN! It's like reading Jane Austen to understand evolutionary biology, or the toaster manual to understand the Australian Federal Constitution. It just doesn't work. It's just plain wrong, and any 'deductions' from reading one type of literature in an unintended way is going to come out with completely wonky results. It's going to be like trying to paint a landscape when you're blind, or wearing red-eye glasses.

Then please present your view of what each of the tribulation details in Revelation chapters 6-18 means.

OK, and this is from Dr Paul Barnett's book "Apocalypse Now and then". Paul Barnett was a bishop in the Sydney Anglican church and a Historian at Macquarie University.

///Each theme mentions the number 7, just as Jesus did earlier in the book with 7 eyes and 7 horns, and just as John chose to write to the universal church through the symbolism of 7 individual churches with their own unique problems.

So we have the number 7 cropping up again, which means God's eternal perfect plan unfolding in history. These events are under God's control, and that means it is OK. Each of these themes are explored in 7 stages or images, and when the next sequence of 7 starts up just 'reset your clock' to cover the 'last days' all over again. (From Jesus resurrection to the end of the world).

The rough plot:

7 Seals depicting TYRANNY; Rev 6-7
7 trumpets depicting CHAOS IN CREATION 8-11
7 signs depicting PERSECUTION OF BELIEVERS 12-14
7 plagues depicting DESTRUCTION OF THE EARTH 15-16///

Actually, only Revelation 19 is about the return of the Lord. The preceding chapters 6-18 are about the future tribulation which will precede his return.

Once again, here are the 3 reasons I'm not a futurist.

Problems with Futurism.
1: Revelation becomes IRRELEVANT for the majority of Christians.
The MOST serious side effect of unthinking futurism is that the book of Revelation then becomes utterly irrelevant for the vast majority of Christian history. If only our generation has the world order and political situation through which to finally understand this otherwise mysterious book, then what GOOD has it been for the church for the last 2000 years? Futurists would turn today's geo-politics into the lens through which we are to understand the bible. That's just so upside down and back to front one hardly knows where to begin conversing with these people!

2: Revelation becomes PATRONISING & NASTY to today's suffering Christians.
Futurists deny that John was writing to *his* generation about things that are about to happen "soon" for "The time is near" (See Chapter 1). Instead, they rip it out of the Roman context and stick the book down somewhere 2000 years later! Instead comforting Christians suffering under the Romans back then, it rubs their noses in it and proclaims, "You think YOU'VE got it bad! Just wait till you see how bad they have it in this thing we call the TRIBULATION!" Insisting the TRIBULATION is actually in the far future makes a mockery of all those who have already suffered unspeakable loss for His name.

Try telling Richard Wurmbrant that he didn't live through a 'tribulation'. Try telling Christian parents who watched their kids get butchered in former Communist and Muslim countries. Try telling someone who watched their family get buried alive in Africa, and had to watch their children begging for their lives as they choked up dirt in their last breaths.

The futurist declares that Revelation's got nothing for them now. It's a boring timetable about the FUTURE, and how those poor Christians are going to suffer EVEN MORE! (Or get miraculously raptured away... which would make me ask why I had to go through it and they didn't!)

3: Revelation fails to reinterpret the Messiah Christologically!
The Reformation Theologians and great Reformed Calvinist thinkers of today are Amil. They read the obvious biblical symbolism in Revelation and see a theological sermon, not a future timetable. This sermon covers a lot of ground, but much of it is Christological and helps the early Jews understand who the Messiah really was as the suffering Servant king, and how that all works with fulfilling the LONG TERM security of God's spiritual people. Jewish Christians were often confused about why Jesus was taking so long to kick out the Romans. The fact that God's Kingdom was now 'not of this world' often escaped them. Revelation explains all this.

Futurists would strip this sermon of it's power and turn it into a boring, arbitrary, lifeless timetable. To which I reply, eeerrh? So what? Especially if it's not going to happen in my lifetime?

So, other than tossing around a bunch of Scriptures that also confirm a Reformed Amil approach, they are the top 3 reasons I'm not a futurist!

Instead, Revelation describes the imminent Roman persecution of Christians with a lot of symbolic writing and Old Testament metaphors thrown in. It describes our danger from political persecution, worldly philosophies, the pleasures of wealth and even from God's judgement against this world in natural disasters. However, God's people are ultimately safe, and God is judging this world right now even as we wait for the FINAL judgement. God is in control, even when bad things happen. So trust Him! John said it was about things that were going to happen SOON, in his generation, and that the TIME WAS NEAR!

That's the message, in a nutshell. So it has plenty to say to Christians in ALL situations and ages and circumstances, even us in the filthy rich west. In vivid picture language, it warns us not to trust in money or worldly security. It warns us natural disasters can pluck us or our loved ones out of history and into eternity at ANY moment; but that ultimately, we are eternally secure.

I find it a disturbing book precisely because it doesn't describe some distant future timetable that I can largely ignore, but instead offers a general description of life anywhere, any time. These things could happen to me and to my family; and God would not have broken any promises to me! He warned me. In his love, God wrote this letter to warn me that we live in desperate times. We really do live in the Last Days, and have done since Peter declared it to be the Last Day's when the Holy Spirit first came on the church 2000 years ago. (Acts 2).

The future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a will be when the Antichrist makes a peace treaty,

You've just inserted over 2000 years into the text. Hey, what gives? I thought you read the bible LITERALLY!!!!???

You futurist's just can't practice what you preach.

 

[eclipsenow]

Actually, the abomination of desolation (Daniel 11:31/Matthew 24:15) hasn't been antitypically fulfilled yet, but will be when Daniel 11:36/2 Thessalonians 2:4 is also fulfilled (for the first and only time) in our future.

Actually, the abomination of Desolation HAS happened because the temple that Jesus and the disciples were looking at with THEIR OWN EYES was destroyed, in 70 AD.

Actually, Jesus was ACTUALLY talking about THAT temple, not some 3rd and as yet hypothetical temple of your own imagination. It's a difficult passage because Jesus keeps jumping back and forth between discussing the Disciple's generation that would witness 'these things' and the far future generation of 'that day'. Note the difference. These things V that day. 'These things' will happen soon and there are SIGNS! When speaking of the abomination he speaks of you and Judea and running to the mountains and your flight. He is speaking to the disciples generation!

32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

The difficulty is that this passage is split by Jesus referring to the last day to show how utterly impossible it would be to impersonate him. The disciples asked about the end of the age, and to them the end of the temple is the end of the age. The end of the temple is HUGE to them! They are looking at it, RIGHT THERE, and asking about THAT temple! (None of the temple talk is about something 2000 years later! That's just a RIDICULOUS assertion for someone who pretends to read the bible literally!)

So Jesus refers to 'that day' and the generation of 'that day'.

He speaks a little more distantly of that day. It's not you or Judea or run to the mountains. It's 'people'.

36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

So rather than being signs of the Lord's imminent return, the abomination was something that occurred in the disciples generation. Otherwise verses 36 to 41 above contradict the rest of the passage! Otherwise Jesus was only joking when he said he would come like a thief in the night. Even HE doesn't know when he's going to return, so how can he warn us about 'abomination's and anti-christ's and all that jazz? Hmmm?

 

[Bible2]

eclipsenow said in post #47:

You mean verse 3, Chapter 9, of Book 10 of post 1020459 of yours?

No, the 2nd part of post #34.

Oh dear, somehow I missed it.

That's okay. It's still there.

Are you *sure* you know what the word literally actually means?

Yes. Revelation 13:14-15 could be fulfilled literally by an android image, as was shown in the 2nd part of post #36.

I've never heard of Androids being referred to as 'images' before.

The original Greek word (eikon, G1504) translated as the "image" of the beast (Revelation 13:15) simply means something that is made in the likeness of something else, such as the image of a man engraved on a coin (Luke 20:24). So an android made in the likeness of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) could be referred to as being an image of the Antichrist.

Continuing to trust in Christ is essential, yes, but it's a gift of God nevertheless.

There's no assurance that Christians will continue in the faith (which is a gift of God: Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65, 1 Corinthians 3:5b) unto the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23), instead of wrongly employing their free will to depart from the faith, to no longer believe, to commit apostasy (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, 2 Timothy 4:3-4, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Hebrews 3:12, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6, 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

I don't read anywhere else in the bible that says a tattoo on my head can send me to hell!

It hasn't been said that the mark of the beast will be a tattoo. But the Bible does show that our salvation will be taken away if we worship the Antichrist and his image, and by our own volition receive his mark on our forehead or hand (Revelation 14:9-12; in the original Greek, "receive" in Revelation 14:9 is in the active voice, not the passive voice).

I don't see how that even fits with the gospel!

It fits, because the gospel doesn't teach OSAS.

Oh, *right*, like Jesus has a sword coming out of his mouth and 7 horns and 7 eyes.

Revelation 19:15,21's sword could be a literal, spiritual sword, like the literal, spiritual sword in Genesis 3:24, while Revelation 5:6's seven horns and seven eyes could be symbolic.

Everything ELSE in the book reads EXACTLY the same way!

Revelation is almost entirely literal. See the last part of post #39.

There are 7's and not-quite-sevens (666) and half 7's (3.5 years) and 10's and 12's and 12 times 12 times 1000 and all manner of SYMBOLIC Jewish numbers . . .

The 666, the 3.5 years, and the 144,000 in Revelation are literal numbers.

It just doesn't work.

It works well.

John chose to write to the universal church through the symbolism of 7 individual churches with their own unique problems.

The seven epistles to seven churches in Revelation chapters 2-3 were sent to seven literal, first-century local church congregations in seven cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b), just as Paul wrote epistles to seven literal, first-century local church congregations in seven places in the Roman Empire: Rome, Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus, Philippi, Colosse, and Thessalonica.

7 Seals depicting TYRANNY; Rev 6-7

Please present your view of what each of the different details in Revelation chapters 6-7 depicts with regard to tyranny.

7 trumpets depicting CHAOS IN CREATION 8-11

Please present your view of what each of the different details in Revelation chapters 8-11 depicts with regard to chaos.

7 signs depicting PERSECUTION OF BELIEVERS 12-14

Please present your view of what each of the different details in Revelation chapters 12-14 depicts with regard to persecution.

7 plagues depicting DESTRUCTION OF THE EARTH 15-16

Please present your view of what each of the different details in Revelation chapters 15-16 depicts with regard to the destruction of the earth.

The MOST serious side effect of unthinking futurism is that the book of Revelation then becomes utterly irrelevant for the vast majority of Christian history.

Just as the glorious return of Jesus in Revelation 19:7-20:3 has always been relevant to Christians (because all scripture is profitable: 2 Timothy 3:16) despite the fact that it has never been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled (and almost entirely literally) in our future, so the highly-detailed events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6-18 have always been relevant to Christians despite the fact that they've never been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled (and almost entirely literally) in our future. Also, Christians don't have to experience every literal event in scripture, whether past literal events (e.g. Genesis chapters 1-11) or future literal events (e.g. Revelation chapters 6-18) in order for every scripture to be profitable to Christians (2 Timothy 3:16).

If only our generation has the world order and political situation through which to finally understand this otherwise mysterious book, then what GOOD has it been for the church for the last 2000 years?

Revelation isn't a mysterious book, but is an unsealed book (Revelation 22:10) (see the last paragraph of post #39).

Futurists would turn today's geo-politics into the lens through which we are to understand the bible.

Futurists look at today's geopolitics only to help them consider different ways for how the never-fulfilled, yet still understandable, geopolitical prophecies in Revelation chapters 6-18 might be fulfilled in our future.

Futurists deny that John was writing to *his* generation about things that are about to happen "soon" for "The time is near" (See Chapter 1).

Part of what Revelation chapters 2-3 foretold could have begun unfolding "shortly" after John saw his vision (Revelation 1:1,3), near the end of the first century AD. For the letters to the seven literal, first-century local church congregations (Revelation chapters 2-3) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) could have foretold a first-century persecution (Revelation 2:10, Revelation 3:10) under the Roman Emperor Domitian which happened shortly after John saw his vision around 95 AD, near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c). But even all the (to us) still-future events of the coming tribulation and the subsequent second coming (Revelation chapters 6-19) will unfold "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) or "quickly" (Revelation 22:20) after John saw his vision. For from the viewpoint of God, even the passing of some 2,000 years is like the passing of only two days (2 Peter 3:8). Christians should look at the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6-19 from the viewpoint of God, not men, for whom the passing of some 2,000 years seems like a long delay for its fulfillment (cf. 2 Peter 3:9).

Try telling Richard Wurmbrant that he didn't live through a 'tribulation'.

He did, just as others have, and others are. But it's still true that no past or present tribulation (or tribulations) in the general sense (Acts 14:22, John 16:33, Romans 5:3, Ephesians 3:13, 2 Thessalonians 1:4) has ever fulfilled the highly-detailed and chronological prophecies of the specific tribulation described in Revelation chapters 6-18.

(Or get miraculously raptured away... which would make me ask why I had to go through it and they didn't!)

Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18/Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' second coming and the physical resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7-20:6, 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 is referring to the same second coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which is referring to the same second coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church and the Antichrist sits in a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15-31, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place of a third Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the worldwide reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26), the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31, Mark 13:27), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

The Reformation Theologians and great Reformed Calvinist thinkers of today are Amil.

The millennium will be literal, and it will begin after Jesus' second coming (Revelation 19:7-20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21) (see the "Regarding the millennium" part of post #31).

They read the obvious biblical symbolism in Revelation and see a theological sermon, not a future timetable.

Revelation is almost entirely literal (see the last part of post #39).

This sermon covers a lot of ground, but much of it is Christological and helps the early Jews understand who the Messiah really was as the suffering Servant king . . .

Revelation chapters 6-22 are about future events, "things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1).

The fact that God's Kingdom was now 'not of this world' often escaped them.

John 18:36 meant that Jesus' future physical reign on the earth, with the just-physically-resurrected church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), won't be of this world in the sense that it won't come by worldly means, such as by the church fighting physically to establish it (cf. 2 Corinthians 10:3-4a, Matthew 26:52, Matthew 5:39). Instead, it will come only by Jesus returning from heaven to establish it (Revelation 19:7-20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21). Also, after the millennium and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-15), a new earth will be created and God's kingdom will be on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-22:5).

Futurists would strip this sermon of it's power and turn it into a boring, arbitrary, lifeless timetable.

Revelation chapters 6-22 are a fascinating, very specific, and lively timetable of future events.

To which I reply, eeerrh? So what? Especially if it's not going to happen in my lifetime?

Do Christians say "So what?" to, for example, Genesis chapters 1-11, simply because those events didn't happen in their lifetime?

I find it a disturbing book precisely because it doesn't describe some distant future timetable . . .

It may no longer be distant (from a merely-human point of view) to us today, for Matthew 24:34 could mean that the temporal generation that saw the 1948 re-establishment of Israel (which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree: Matthew 24:32-34, cf. Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9, Matthew 21:19,43) won't pass until the fulfillment of the future tribulation and the second coming, which Jesus had just finished describing in Matthew 24:5-31 (and which he would later show in great detail in Revelation chapters 6-19). A temporal generation may not pass until 70 or 80 years (Psalms 90:10), or 120 years (Genesis 6:3).

The idea that the 1948 generation won't pass until the second coming doesn't require that the second coming will occur right before (like one year) before the generation will pass: i.e. 69, or 79, or 119 years after 1948; in 2017, 2027, or 2067. And if the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18/Matthew 24, which will immediately precede the second coming (Matthew 24:29-31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7-20:6), will last seven years, the first year of the tribulation didn't have to be in 2011, and won't have to be in 2021, or 2061, but could be in a future year (e.g. 2020) earlier than 2021.

I find it a disturbing book precisely because it doesn't describe some distant future timetable that I can largely ignore, but instead offers a general description of life anywhere, any time.

Regarding "a general description", Revelation isn't general, but very specific. That's why it's so highly detailed and so long in Revelation chapters 6-22. To reduce all of it to "the church will suffer and Jesus will return and bring a final judgment" renders all of the myriad and amazing details in Revelation chapters 6-22 utterly useless. It's like throwing Revelation's chapters 6-22 into the trash, just to be done with them.

We really do live in the Last Days . . .

That's right (see the "the last days" part of post #31). But still, the highly-detailed events of Revelation chapters 6-22 haven't been fulfilled yet.

You've just inserted over 2000 years into the text. Hey, what gives? I thought you read the bible LITERALLY!!!!???

Yes, the future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a, when the Antichrist makes a peace treaty, will be a literal fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a.

You futurist's just can't practice what you preach.

How so?

 

[Bible2]

eclipsenow said in post #48:

Actually, the abomination of Desolation HAS happened because the temple that Jesus and the disciples were looking at with THEIR OWN EYES was destroyed, in 70 AD.

The abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31) hasn't been fulfilled antitypically, even though the second temple was destroyed in 70 AD. See the "abomination that causes desolation" part of post #46.

Jesus was ACTUALLY talking about THAT temple . . .

He wasn't, because the abomination of desolation wasn't fulfilled in that temple.

Jesus was ACTUALLY talking about THAT temple, not some 3rd and as yet hypothetical temple of your own imagination.

Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 require that there will be a third Jewish temple building in Jerusalem during the future tribulation. It will coexist with the church like the second Jewish temple did (Luke 24:53, Acts 22:17) and like the temple building in heaven does (Revelation 11:19). It could be built on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem by the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel after they clear the site by destroying the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque.

Shortly after the ultra-Orthodox Jews complete the third temple, the Antichrist could attack and defeat them and a false Messiah leading them (Daniel 11:22). Then the Antichrist could "cut" a peace treaty with them and their false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:23a) permitting them to keep the temple and to continue to perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of it for at least seven more years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims so that the Muslims can rebuild the Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. The ultra-Orthodox Jews could grudgingly agree to this, if the only other option is for them to lose the temple entirely. They could then build a huge wall between the temple and the southern part of the Temple Mount, in order to keep the temple from being defiled.

But then, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place of the temple (Daniel 9:27b, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

He is speaking to the disciples generation!

While Jesus was speaking with the apostles in the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21), in Jesus' mind all believers of all times are one (John 17:20-21, Ephesians 4:4-5). The events foretold by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse didn't happen in the lifetime of the apostles, or any time since then. They will happen in the future. For example, Luke 21:24 refers to the same future treading down of Jerusalem by the Gentiles as Revelation 11:2b. Also, Matthew 24:2 wasn't fulfilled in 70 AD or any time since then, because the stones of the second temple complex's Western (today called the Wailing) Wall still stand one on top of the other, just as they did when Jesus spoke that prophecy (see the "Matthew 24:2" part of post #46).

When speaking of the abomination he speaks of you and Judea and running to the mountains and your flight.

Regarding Matthew 24:16, there are many churches in Judaea (southern Israel) today. Matthew 24:16 is referring to those in the church, both Jewish believers and Gentile believers, who will still be living in Judaea at the future point in time when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place of a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). The Antichrist's persecution of believers could begin in Jerusalem and Judaea right after the abomination of desolation is set up and the Antichrist himself sits in the temple and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). So to avoid this persecution (Matthew 10:23a), those in the church living in Judaea should flee immediately after they see the abomination of desolation set up (Matthew 24:15-16), which event could occur mid-tribulation and mark the start of the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5b,7b). Eventually, the Antichrist's persecution of believers will reach every nation around the world (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), so the basic principle of Matthew 24:16 of fleeing (the Antichrist's persecution) would be applicable to believers around the world.

Just as the woman in Revelation 12:6 represents many different people in the church all around the world, so the protected wilderness place she flees to represents many different protected wilderness places all around the world. When those in the church living in Judaea see the abomination of desolation set up, they should flee into places in the wilderness east of Judaea, the mountains (Matthew 24:16) of Jordan. And those in the church who will be living in places in the world other than Judaea should flee into other wilderness places, mountainous places (Ezekiel 7:16), in the regions of the world where they live.

And they should have prepared beforehand hideouts in these wilderness/mountain places, hideouts already fully stocked with all the emergency supplies of food, water, warm clothing, etc., that they and their families and fellow Christians will need to survive (1 Timothy 5:8, Matthew 24:45-46, cf. Genesis 41:48,36, Genesis 45:7) until Jesus returns, possibly on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). For they shouldn't carry any supplies with them when they flee (Matthew 24:17-18). They should flee as unhindered and quickly as possible, knowing that when the abomination of desolation is set up, that could signal the beginning of the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18), when he will be given power to make war against all those in the church that he can get his hands on, and to overcome them and kill them in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13).

The disciples asked about the end of the age, and to them the end of the temple is the end of the age.

While the apostles asked Jesus about the end of the age (Matthew 24:3), he didn't tell them that the end of the age would occur when the second temple was destroyed, or (as it sometimes claimed) immediately at his second coming. He didn't say when it would occur, just as he didn't tell them many other things during his ministry (John 16:12). It wouldn't be until much later that he would show the apostle John, through the vision in the book of Revelation, that the end of the age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until over 1,000 years after his second coming (Revelation 19:7-20:15).

Also, from God's point of view, there was no transition period (as is sometimes claimed), no overlap at all (Hebrews 10:9b, Hebrews 7:12), between the time of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law and the time of the New Covenant. Instead, the time of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law ended at the moment Jesus died on the Cross (Matthew 27:50-51a) and abolished the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Hebrews 7:18-19, 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), which was the same moment that he brought the New Covenant into effect (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17, Hebrews 10:19-20, Matthew 27:51a).

So rather than being signs of the Lord's imminent return, the abomination was something that occurred in the disciples generation. Otherwise verses 36 to 41 above contradict the rest of the passage!

The abomination of desolation wasn't something that was fulfilled in the apostles temporal generation. And this doesn't require that Matthew 24:26-41 contradicts the rest of the passage (see the "Matthew 24:36,42,44" part of post #46). Also, compare the following two verses:

"...of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36).
"...the things of God knoweth no man" (1 Corinthians 2:11).

If we claim that the first verse means that no man will ever know the date of Jesus' second coming until it happens, then to be consistent we would have to also claim that the second verse means that no man, not even believers, can know the things of God until the second coming happens. But who would say that? For the Holy Spirit can currently reveal to believers the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:12-13), he can currently guide believers into all truth and show them what will happen in the future (John 16:13), including the date of Jesus' second coming before it happens. For Jesus suggests that it's possible for believers to know when his second coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a, cf. 1 Thessalonians 5:4). Also, what Amos 3:7 says would include the second coming: i.e., surely God the Father won't send Jesus back without having first revealed to some believers the secret of the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus' second coming. It could occur on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in a third Jewish temple (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15).

Otherwise Jesus was only joking when he said he would come like a thief in the night.

Jesus' coming as a thief in the night means that he will come even upon Christians when they aren't expecting him if they stop watching (staying awake, spiritually). Compare the principle of: "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee" (Revelation 3:3b). Also, some in the church will still be alive on the earth during the final stage of the tribulation, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). So his coming won't overtake them like a thief (1 Thessalonians 5:4, Matthew 24:43). With regard to Jesus coming as a thief to the unsaved world, when it isn't expecting him (1 Thessalonians 5:2-4, Matthew 24:39), nothing requires that the unsaved world will be expecting Jesus' second coming after the tribulation. For during the tribulation the unsaved world could come to believe that Jesus has already returned and is already on the earth (Matthew 24:24-26).

Even HE doesn't know when he's going to return, so how can he warn us about 'abomination's and anti-christ's and all that jazz? Hmmm?

At the time of the Olivet Discourse, Jesus didn't know the date (as in the year, month, and day) of his return (Mark 13:32), but he did know that he would return immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31), and that the tribulation would include the (antitypical) fulfillment of the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

Also, regarding Jesus not knowing, before his resurrection, the date he would return (Mark 13:32), that was because at his incarnation (John 1:14), Jesus temporarily laid aside (Philippians 2:6-8) his divine omniscience with regard to his own conscious human knowledge (Mark 13:32) in order to completely share in our mortal human condition (Hebrews 2:17) and be tempted in every way that humans are tempted (Hebrews 4:15). Nonetheless, he still remained God (John 10:30, John 1:1,14, 1 Timothy 3:16). And after his resurrection into fully-human immortality (Luke 24:39), he regained his divine omniscience (Colossians 2:2b-3), just as he regained his divine omnipotence (Matthew 28:18). And so now he does know the date of his return.

 

[dana b]

So much of Micah 4 seems to fit current events
- a nation people flow into
- a nation which other nations imitate
- a nation where people live in peace
- a nation where people walk in the name of their own gods
- a mighty nation which rebukes other nations and removes their weapons
- a mighty nation which goes to Babylon in war
- a mighty nation which many nations are gathered against
- a nation which has lost leadership

Micah 4: But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.

For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.

In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted;

And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.

Now why dost thou cry out aloud? is there no king in thee? is thy counseller perished? for pangs have taken thee as a woman in travail.

Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.

Now also many nations are gathered against thee, that say, Let her be defiled, and let our eye look upon Zion.

But they know not the thoughts of the LORD, neither understand they his counsel: for he shall gather them as the sheaves into the floor.

Arise and thresh, O daughter of Zion: for I will make thine horn iron, and I will make thy hoofs brass: and thou shalt beat in pieces many people: and I will consecrate their gain unto the LORD, and their substance unto the Lord of the whole earth.
​

These verses above describe the beginning of the Christian Millennium that has begun as of the year 2000AD. European Christian regenerated Israel is today the woman of Rev.12;1, flying the crown of 12 stars upon her head. The Moon(Old Testament Law) lies under her feet. And she is clothed in the Sun, Christianity.

She is being delivered, who has seen such a thing? Can a nation be established in a day. Well it has. European Christian Israel has finally come about.

 

[eclipsenow]

Revelation chapters 6-22 are about (to us) still-future events, "things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1).

Just as the glorious return of Jesus in Revelation 19 has never been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled almost entirely literally in our future, so the highly-detailed events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6-18 have never been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled almost entirely literally in our future. See the end of post #39.

Mere assertion does not form an argument. You can repeat "6-18 are in the future because they have not happened yet" a thousand times and yet still not have formed an argument, not clearly explained WHY you think they are 'detailed events'.

1. SERMON ANALOGY
The scholars I read simply do not see the language of Revelation as a specific timetable, but a generic sermon. It's almost the same as if a Pastor were giving a sermon full of football analogies. "Right, where are we in this battle against sin, Satan, and the world against God? Are we at half time? No! We're at the end of the game, God's team has won, and we're just playing in extra-time for that last extra point. We've won! The match is over! Christ is only seconds away from blowing the final whistle!" That is Revelation! Now just replace the sporting symbolism with classical Jewish number and image symbolism, and you have the vibe of the book. Remember, John said it was to begin soon, because the time was near! He never, not once, gives grounds to insert 2000 years into his writing, simply because it is not about now. It's about the whole period between Jesus death and resurrection and his return. It's not a straight march through time but a waltz in big, sweeping, generic descriptions. Not predictions. That's why it's written in such easily identifiable biblical symbols! That's why it's so repetitive! That's why it doesn't actually work as a timeline, because judgement day keeps repeating over and over and God's enemies keep getting wiped out! (Especially in Chapters 17 through 20).

2. NOT DETAILED AT ALL
The highly symbolic language is absolutely NOT a series of "highly-detailed events", otherwise why do you futurists all tear each other apart all day long in disagreement? Rather than recognising the biblical symbolism in the passage, you guys reach practice creative writing courses. You grab a few newspaper headlines, grab a few images from Revelation, reach deep into your subconscious, and then like magic start relating whatever comes to mind as some kind of fact. It's subjective, individualistic, and untestable against the pages of scripture. This is your hermeneutic. But it does no-one any good today, let alone 2000 years ago when this modern world of ours didnt' even exist! Other futurists all come to different conclusions (surprise surprise), and we may as well burn the book of Revelation for all the good it does futurists!

3. JOHN EXPECTS ALL CHRISTIANS TO UNDERSTAND IT!
Jesus is the one worthy to break the seal. That ancient prophecy of Daniel's is finally fulfilled and revealled. This is it! And what is it about? Some subjectively driven, untestable collection of Newspaper headlines from 2020 that no earlier Christians could possibly understand? No way! This was meant to be encouraging to John's generation! So what does John tell us in the introduction!? The time is near, and also:

Revelation 1
He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.

John is to testify as the last eye-witness to Jesus time on earth and his gospel! "The Testimony of Jesus Christ!"

Whatever Revelation says, it is going to be primarily about the gospel! Not some silly future timetable! I know it is the gospel because it is repeated throughout the entire book in various biblical images. There's even a few chapters in the middle that recap the gospel like a little gospel tract in the middle of all the suffering, just to remind us who this is all about.
So that's how Sydney Anglicans tend to read Revelation. The Evangelical Reformed bible believing ones anyway.

There is no time to discuss Matthew 24 in detail as this thread is already way off course. But I'll just make the point that the disciples were asking about that temple, 2000 years ago, and that Jesus replied with specific language about what would happen in their generation about that temple. It's not about some still unbuilt, still hypothetical, third temple of 2034 AD or whatever. As IF they were asking about that! No, Jesus answers their question about their temple being destroyed. They one they were staring at with glazed eyes like country-boys blinded by the big city lights. That temple! And Titus wiped it out after having his soldiers bow down and sacrifice to the Eagle standard.

Because, after all, he DID say that the temple was actually his body, and he would destroy it and raise it again in 3 days. Not only that, Paul and the author of Hebrews also spiritualise the temple as being fulfilled in Jesus, the whole sacrificial covenant being fulfilled in Jesus, and the idea of the High Priesthood and temple and sacrificial system now being seated in heaven for us as the perfect mediator, Jesus!

The fantastically ironic thing is that Jesus talks about the temple being destroyed in their generation ("these things") but then switches to the far-future when he talks about "that day", and he CLEARLY says there will be NO warning about that day! So the abomination that causes desolation not only applies to the temple the disciples were asking about, before their VERY EYES!, but also CANNOT be some far future event that warns us of when the Lord might return. Because there is no warning!

36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. 42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

How ironic that futurists try to rip the clear prophecy of Jesus that Rome would destroy the temple so out of context, and shove it into our future 2000 years later about a temple that hasn't even been built, a temple that our whole culture seems to be looking out for because of Tim LaHaye's silly novels, and then Jesus says that they WILL NOT KNOW when he is about to return!

That's a complete fail if you ask me!

 

[Douggg]

Revelation 6-22 is about actual future events, not analogies.

Doug

 

[Codger]

Mere assertion does not form an argument. You can repeat "6-18 are in the future because they have not happened yet" a thousand times and yet still not have formed an argument, not clearly explained WHY you think they are 'detailed events'.

1. SERMON ANALOGY
The scholars I read simply do not see the language of Revelation as a specific timetable, but a generic sermon. It's almost the same as if a Pastor were giving a sermon full of football analogies. "Right, where are we in this battle against sin, Satan, and the world against God? Are we at half time? No! We're at the end of the game, God's team has won, and we're just playing in extra-time for that last extra point. We've won! The match is over! Christ is only seconds away from blowing the final whistle!" That is Revelation! Now just replace the sporting symbolism with classical Jewish number and image symbolism, and you have the vibe of the book. Remember, John said it was to begin soon, because the time was near! He never, not once, gives grounds to insert 2000 years into his writing, simply because it is not about now. It's about the whole period between Jesus death and resurrection and his return. It's not a straight march through time but a waltz in big, sweeping, generic descriptions. Not predictions. That's why it's written in such easily identifiable biblical symbols! That's why it's so repetitive! That's why it doesn't actually work as a timeline, because judgement day keeps repeating over and over and God's enemies keep getting wiped out! (Especially in Chapters 17 through 20).

2. NOT DETAILED AT ALL
The highly symbolic language is absolutely NOT a series of "highly-detailed events", otherwise why do you futurists all tear each other apart all day long in disagreement? Rather than recognising the biblical symbolism in the passage, you guys reach practice creative writing courses. You grab a few newspaper headlines, grab a few images from Revelation, reach deep into your subconscious, and then like magic start relating whatever comes to mind as some kind of fact. It's subjective, individualistic, and untestable against the pages of scripture. This is your hermeneutic. But it does no-one any good today, let alone 2000 years ago when this modern world of ours didnt' even exist! Other futurists all come to different conclusions (surprise surprise), and we may as well burn the book of Revelation for all the good it does futurists!

3. JOHN EXPECTS ALL CHRISTIANS TO UNDERSTAND IT!
Jesus is the one worthy to break the seal. That ancient prophecy of Daniel's is finally fulfilled and revealled. This is it! And what is it about? Some subjectively driven, untestable collection of Newspaper headlines from 2020 that no earlier Christians could possibly understand? No way! This was meant to be encouraging to John's generation! So what does John tell us in the introduction!? The time is near, and also:

Revelation 1
He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw--that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.

John is to testify as the last eye-witness to Jesus time on earth and his gospel! "The Testimony of Jesus Christ!"

Whatever Revelation says, it is going to be primarily about the gospel! Not some silly future timetable! I know it is the gospel because it is repeated throughout the entire book in various biblical images. There's even a few chapters in the middle that recap the gospel like a little gospel tract in the middle of all the suffering, just to remind us who this is all about.
So that's how Sydney Anglicans tend to read Revelation. The Evangelical Reformed bible believing ones anyway.

There is no time to discuss Matthew 24 in detail as this thread is already way off course. But I'll just make the point that the disciples were asking about that temple, 2000 years ago, and that Jesus replied with specific language about what would happen in their generation about that temple. It's not about some still unbuilt, still hypothetical, third temple of 2034 AD or whatever. As IF they were asking about that! No, Jesus answers their question about their temple being destroyed. They one they were staring at with glazed eyes like country-boys blinded by the big city lights. That temple! And Titus wiped it out after having his soldiers bow down and sacrifice to the Eagle standard.

Because, after all, he DID say that the temple was actually his body, and he would destroy it and raise it again in 3 days. Not only that, Paul and the author of Hebrews also spiritualise the temple as being fulfilled in Jesus, the whole sacrificial covenant being fulfilled in Jesus, and the idea of the High Priesthood and temple and sacrificial system now being seated in heaven for us as the perfect mediator, Jesus!

The fantastically ironic thing is that Jesus talks about the temple being destroyed in their generation ("these things") but then switches to the far-future when he talks about "that day", and he CLEARLY says there will be NO warning about that day! So the abomination that causes desolation not only applies to the temple the disciples were asking about, before their VERY EYES!, but also CANNOT be some far future event that warns us of when the Lord might return. Because there is no warning!

36 "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. 42 "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

How ironic that futurists try to rip the clear prophecy of Jesus that Rome would destroy the temple so out of context, and shove it into our future 2000 years later about a temple that hasn't even been built, a temple that our whole culture seems to be looking out for because of Tim LaHaye's silly novels, and then Jesus says that they WILL NOT KNOW when he is about to return!

That's a complete fail if you ask me!

Great post. The problem that I have on these boards is that one error has been built on top of another on top of another and so on. So when you address a peripheral issue you have to start at bedrock to make your point. Logical and relevant
.

 

[Douggg]

Great post. The problem that I have on these boards is that one error has been built on top of another on top of another and so on. So when you address a peripheral issue you have to start at bedrock to make your point. Logical and relevant
.

I am still waiting on some non-millenial person to explain the Daniel 7 time, times, and half times persecution of the saints by the little horn that ends when Judgement is made on him and the Kingdom of God established here on earth.

Doug

 

[eclipsenow]

Revelation 6-22 is about actual future events, not analogies.
Doug

If you repeat it 1000 times, and then click your ruby slippers together 3 times, it might just be true!*


(*This sentence may not be literal. The number 1000 was used as the Jewish symbol for 'many' and 'complete number' and clicking ruby slippers together was a reference to the Wizard of Oz. Millennialists seem to believe that everything ever written must be literal. I don't think so! But then that might just be the log in my own eye. Woooo-haaah-ouche-wowa, who put that LOG literally in my EYE!??)

 

[eclipsenow]

I am still waiting on some non-millenial person to explain the Daniel 7 time, times, and half times persecution of the saints by the little horn that ends when Judgement is made on him and the Kingdom of God established here on earth.

Doug

God willing I'll get there, one day. Right now I'm using every spare moment doing other things, like attending church on PALM Sunday when we celebrate the MESSIAH coming into Jerusalem and being exalted as the Messiah by hundreds and hundreds of Jews!

But hey, we can't drag that argument across every thread we happen to visit now can we?

So I'll respond to the other one when I get a chance.

 

[Bible2]

eclipsenow said in post #52:

You can repeat "6-18 are in the future because they have not happened yet" a thousand times and yet still not have formed an argument, not clearly explained WHY you think they are 'detailed events'.

Why do you think they aren't? Rev. chs. 6-22 are detailed events because there are so many of them, they're so varied, and they're chronological, and so long. To reduce all of them to 1, short general statement renders all their myriad, specific and amazing details utterly useless. It's like throwing Rev. chs. 6-22 into the trash, just to be done with them.

The scholars I read simply do not see the language of Revelation as a specific timetable, but a generic sermon.

Based on what?

Now just replace the sporting symbolism with classical Jewish number and image symbolism, and you have the vibe of the book.

Revelation is an unsealed book (Rev. 22:10), meaning that it shouldn't be difficult for Christians to understand it if they simply read it as it's written: chronologically and almost entirely literally. The few parts of it that are symbolic are almost always explained afterward (e.g. Rev. 1:20, 17:9-12), and the few symbols in Rev. that aren't explained afterward (e.g. Rev. 13:2) are usually explained elsewhere in the Bible (e.g. Dan. 7:4-7,17).

John said it was to begin soon . . .

That was addressed in the "soon" part of post #49.

He never, not once, gives grounds to insert 2000 years into his writing . . .

Not even with regard to Jesus' 2nd coming? Just as the glorious return of Jesus in Rev. 19:7-20:3 has never been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled almost entirely literally in our future, so the highly-detailed and chronological events of the preceding tribulation in Rev. chs. 6-18 have never been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled almost entirely literally in our future.

It's about the whole period between Jesus death and resurrection and his return.

It isn't, for Rev. chs. 6-22 have never been fulfilled. If you think they have, please show how each detail in Rev. chs. 6-22 has been fulfilled.

It's not a straight march through time . . .

Rev. chs. 6-22 are chronological, insofar as the future tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18 will begin with the events of the 2nd through 6th seals, occurring in the order shown in Rev. 6:3-14. After the events of the 6th seal, Rev. 7 will occur. Then the 7th seal will be unsealed and out of it will come the 7 trumpets of the trib. (Rev. 8:1-6). Then the events of the 1st 6 trumpets in Rev. 8:7-9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Rev. 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the worldwide reign of the Antichrist will occur, which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Rev. chs. 11-14 (Rev. 11:2b-3, Rev. 12:6,14, Rev. 13:5,7, Rev. 14:9-13).

Then the 7th trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Rev. 11:15). Out of the heavenly temple opening of the 7th trumpet will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (or bowls) of the trib. (Rev. 11:19, Rev. 15:5-16:1). Then the 7 vials of the trib. (its final stage) will occur (Rev. 16). Then Jesus will return immediately after the trib. (Mt. 24:29-31) and defeat the Antichrist and reign on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Rev. 19:7-20:6). Then the events of Rev. 20:7-22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

That's why it's so repetitive!

It isn't repetitive. If you feel it is, please show with specific verses how you feel it is.

. . . why do you futurists all tear each other apart all day long in disagreement?

No futurist should ever tear anyone apart, but should simply refer to what the scriptures show and don't show. Also, are you claiming that every member of every non-futurist school of interpretation (e.g. symbolicism) is in total agreement over what each detail in Rev. chs. 6-22 is referring to? If so, please indicate what every member of that school says each detail in Rev. chs. 6-22 is referring to.

Rather than recognising the biblical symbolism in the passage . . .

Please indicate what you feel each detail in Rev. chs. 6-22 symbolizes, based only on what other books of the Bible say.

You grab a few newspaper headlines . . .

Christians do need to compare the never-fulfilled tribulation prophecies of Rev. chs. 6-18 with current events in order to see if any current event has or hasn't fulfilled 1 of those prophecies. For if Christians never find out via the news (i.e. through a newspaper or any other source of news) what's happening out in the world, how can they possibly ever know whether or not the never-fulfilled trib prophecies of Rev. chs. 6-18 are now being fulfilled? What good would it do them to have knowledge of the Biblical, future-trib prophecies (Mk. 13:23, Rev. chs. 6-18) if they for no good reason refuse to determine from the news where in the sequence of prophesied future-trib events the world currently is? Also, preterism employs its own form of newspaper theology, in that preterism desperately searches the equivalent of ancient newspapers, ancient accounts of at-that-time relatively recent events (e.g., the reporting by Josephus of "The Jewish War"), hoping to find any event around 50-70 AD which preterism can try to claim was the fulfillment of a trib event foretold in Rev. chs. 6-18 or Mt. 24.

It's subjective, individualistic, and untestable against the pages of scripture.

Futurism is based on scripture and is testable against scripture, for any futurist claim that contradicts any verse of scripture can't possibly be true. Please show how you feel futurism per se contradicts any scripture.

But it does no-one any good today, let alone 2000 years ago when this modern world of ours didnt' even exist!

That was addressed in the "relevant" part of post #49.

. . . we may as well burn the book of Revelation for all the good it does futurists!

The good that Rev. chs. 6-18 and other unfulfilled Biblical trib prophecies will do futurists will be during the coming trib, for those prophecies are there to give believers clear warning ahead of time about everything they're going to have to face during the future trib (Mk. 13:23, Rev. 1:3, 22:16), so they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Pet. 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that's coming (Mt. 24:4-5,23-25, Rev. 13:13-18, 19:20), and so they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future trib with patience and faith unto the end (Mt. 24:9-13, Rev. 13:7-10, 14:12-13).

Symbolicism, as well as spiritualism, preterism (whether full or partial), historicism (in its various modern forms), and pre-trib rapturism, could all be animated by the same spirit of fear, that the church alive today throughout the world would otherwise have to physically suffer through the future, literal, worldwide tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24. For these 5 views of symbolicism, spiritualism, preterism, historicism, and pre-trib rapturism, in their different ways, each gives a mistaken assurance to the church alive today that it won't have to physically suffer through that trib.

Symbolicism says the trib is only symbolic of theological themes those in the church have always had to struggle with (e.g. Mt. 6:24), or is symbolic of only-local persecutions that some in the church have always had to face, and are still facing today. Spiritualism says the trib is only symbolic of the purely-spiritual struggles which have always gone on within the hearts of Christians. Preterism says the trib happened in 70 AD. Historicism says the trib happened over a long period in history (e.g. during the rise and height of the power of the RCC in Europe during the Middle Ages and after, or during the rise and spread of Islam in the Middle East and elsewhere during the Middle Ages and after). And pre-trib rapturism says Jesus will return and rapture the church into the 3rd heaven before the trib begins.

But when the literal, worldwide trib begins in the future, the shaky doctrinal wall which (in their different ways) these 5 views have each tried to build up between the church and the trib, will be completely shattered (Ezek. 13:10-12) as the church worldwide begins to physically suffer through the trib (Mt. 24:9-31, Rev. 13:7-10, 14:12-12, 20:4). These 5 views may have left some in the church completely unprepared mentally to undergo this physical suffering, to where these 5 views could even contribute to some in the church ultimately losing their salvation (Heb. 6:4-8, Jn. 15:6, 2 Tim. 2:12, Mk. 8:35-38, Col. 1:23, Heb. 3:6,12,14, 10:38-39) because of committing apostasy during the trib, when they became "offended" that God was making them and their little ones physically suffer through it (Mt. 24:9-12, 13:21, Isa. 8:21-22, Lk. 8:13).

Even though the church alive today throughout the world will have to physically suffer through the future, literal, worldwide trib. of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24, the church need not fear this (cf. 1 Pet. 4:12-13, Rev. 2:10), for even though many in the church will suffer and die during that time (Rev. 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4, Mt. 24:9-13), this will be to their gain (Philip. 1:21,23, 2 Cor. 5:8, 4:17-18, 2 Tim. 2:12), and it won't rob them of the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Rom. 8:23-25, Philip. 3:21, Lk. 24:39) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Cor. 15:21-23,51-53, 1 Thes. 4:15-16, Rev. 20:4-6), which will occur immediately after the trib (Mt. 24:29-31, Rev. 19:7-20:6).

That ancient prophecy of Daniel's is finally fulfilled and revealled.

Which prophecy? See the "Daniel" parts of post #46.

I'll just make the point that the disciples were asking about that temple . . .

That was addressed in the "Wailing Wall" part of post #46.

Jesus replied with specific language about what would happen in their generation . . .

That was addressed in the "fig tree" part of post #49.

It's not about some still unbuilt, still hypothetical, third temple . . .

That was addressed in post #50.

Because, after all, he DID say that the temple was actually his body . . .

That was addressed in the "John 2:19" part of post #46.

So the abomination that causes desolation not only applies to the temple the disciples were asking about, before their VERY EYES!, but also CANNOT be some far future event that warns us of when the Lord might return.

That was addressed in the "abomination of desolation in Daniel 11:31" part of post #46.

36 “But about that day or hour no one knows . . .

That was addressed in the "Matthew 24:36,42,44" part of post #46, and in the "...of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36)" part of post #50.

42 “Therefore keep watch . . .

During the future trib of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24, Christians will have to "watch" (stay awake, spiritually) for Jesus' 2nd coming (Mt. 25:13), which won't occur until immediately after the trib (Mt. 24:29-31, 2 Thes. 2:1-8, Rev. 19:7-20:6). For if a Christian isn't "watching" (staying awake, spiritually) for Jesus' 2nd coming, it will take that Christian by surprise (cf. the if principle of Rev. 3:3), and that Christian will lose his or her salvation at that time because of such things as unrepentant sin (Lk. 12:45-46, Heb. 10:26-29, 1 Cor. 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Mt. 25:26,30, Jn. 15:2a, Rom. 2:6-8), or apostasy (Heb. 6:4-8, Jn. 15:6, 2 Tim. 2:12b).

That's a complete fail if you ask me!

It's a pass if you go by what the Bible says.

---

eclipsenow said in post #56:

The number 1000 was used as the Jewish symbol for 'many' and 'complete number' . . .

That was addressed in the "the number 1,000 in Revelation 20:4-6" part of post #31.

Millennialists seem to believe that everything ever written must be literal.

Not everything. But why do symbolicists believe that the trib prophecies of Rev. chs. 6-18 must be symbolic?

 

[eclipsenow]

Why do you think they aren't? Rev. chs. 6-22 are detailed events because there are so many of them, they're so varied, and they're chronological, and so long. To reduce all of them to 1, short general statement renders all their myriad, specific and amazing details utterly useless. It's like throwing Rev. chs. 6-22 into the trash, just to be done with them.

No Covenant Theologian Amil I know 'throws them in the trash'. That's what you futurists do by making them utterly inaccessible to anyone but those select special few of you, those 'elite' Christians who have finally put it all together with today's mix of headlines. Making the entire book utterly incomprehensible and meaningless is what YOU have done.

I never said Covenant Amil's reduce Revelation to a few short summary paragraphs. There are thousands of sermons worth of material in there.

I was merely summarising it to contrast the theological message that applies to all Christians across all time with your butchering of the book. I was comparing the meaning I would get from my hermeneutic of reading the biblical symbols in the context of the whole bible. We compare scripture with scripture to understand scripture. But you make scripture dependent on today's headlines. People 10 years ago probably wouldn't understand it, 100 years ago would not have a chance, and 1000 years ago? Utterly incomprehensible. Completely different planets! But hey, that's your hermeneutic. Now you have to defend it. You say it's literal, but cannot justify inserting 2000 years into the plot, cannot read all of it literally, and cannot even justify why you read it as a 'timetable' of future events at all!

Not even with regard to Jesus' 2nd coming? Just as the glorious return of Jesus in Rev. 19:7-20:3 has never been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled almost entirely literally in our future, so the highly-detailed and chronological events of the preceding tribulation in Rev. chs. 6-18 have never been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled almost entirely literally in our future.

What you are intentionally ignoring is that if Revelation is indeed a series of theological sermons focussing on the gospel then *of course* Revelation will have reference to the return of Christ. The Return of Christ is part of the gospel. The writing in Revelation describes the same event repeatedly and from different angles and different images. This difference in symbolic description shows it to be theological in nature, not some sort of literal timeline. Otherwise the book contradicts itself in the later chapters when the world is judged and sin and Satan defeated... and then it's all back again in the next chapter! (See 17 to 20 for more details).

Symbolicism, as well as spiritualism, preterism (whether full or partial), historicism (in its various modern forms), and pre-trib rapturism, could all be animated by the same spirit of fear, that the church alive today throughout the world would otherwise have to physically suffer through the future, literal, worldwide tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24. For these 5 views of symbolicism, spiritualism, preterism, historicism, and pre-trib rapturism, in their different ways, each gives a mistaken assurance to the church alive today that it won't have to physically suffer through that trib.

Then you don't understand these positions. We see John as writing to comfort Christians ALREADY going through terrible tribulations. Your view just patronises them.

* We see it as an incredibly PRACTICAL book for all Christians in all ages, dealing with the temptation to give in under suffering and follow the worldly short-term gains of materialism and worldly power and success and sensuality.
* You see it as irrelevant to all but the last generation of Christians alive.

* We see it as clear symbolic sermons that interprets themselves according to other symbols in the bible, and are applicable to all Christians in all situations.
* You see it as utterly dependent on today's headlines, and therefore inaccessible to everyone before this generation.

* We use a consistent symbolic hermeneutic.
* You use an inconsistent 'literal' hermeneutic which contradicts itself so frequently the system implodes. Does Jesus have 7 horns and 7 eyes or not? Is the book literal or not? Nothing you have said addresses the fundamental point that your literal hermeneutic is inconsistently applied and a joke at best.

That was addressed in the "Wailing Wall" part of post #46.

That's pathetic. I pointed out that the wailing wall is not part of the temple buildings itself, but just an exterior retaining wall that holds in the dirt of the mound all those buildings were built on. Jesus was not talking about retaining walls for the dirt of the mound, but the buildings themselves!

Matthew 24:

"1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”"

And they were, in AD70. You would make the passage say the following!

1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its dirt foundations. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

Or is it this?

"1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down IN THE 3RD TEMPLE WHICH WILL BE BUILT 2000 YEARS FROM NOW. But as for THESE buildings that you just ASKED about, no, I've got nothing to say about those even though they're going to be destroyed in AD70!”"

Can you see how you don't even PRETEND to read this passage literally? They disciples are there, literally asking Jesus about THAT temple and how wonderful it was, and then they ask about its destruction. You want to shove it to some mythical, hypothetical, imaginary 3rd temple!

Yet you have the sheer audacity to claim YOU are the one who reads the bible literally? I find that offensive when you're taking such liberties with the text that a Liberal theologian would be proud!

They did NOT ask about a hypothetical 3rd temple! They asked about THAT temple, and the 'these things' Jesus responded to in plural were the temple buildings. Go on, show us one of the temple buildings that still stands? No, you can't can you. You can only play semantic games like 'temple complex', as if that somehow means you're pretending to read the passage literally. As CS Lewis would say, "Pish posh!" It's just nonsense. Everything about this passage screams that Jesus was warning about the destruction of THAT temple, that it would happen before THAT generation was over, and that they should get out of town before it happened.

Now how do you claim to have the literal high ground again?

 

[Bible2]

eclipsenow said in post #59:

No Covenant Theologian Amil I know 'throws them in the trash'. That's what you futurists do by making them utterly inaccessible to anyone but those select special few of you, those 'elite' Christians who have finally put it all together with today's mix of headlines. Making the entire book utterly incomprehensible and meaningless is what YOU have done.

Futurism doesn't say Rev. is inaccessible, incomprehensible, or meaningless to any Christian, but says Rev. has always been an unsealed book (Rev. 22:10), meaning that it shouldn't be difficult for any Christian (of any time) to understand it if they simply read it as it's written: chronologically and almost entirely literally. The few parts of it that are symbolic are almost always explained afterward (e.g. Rev. 1:20, 17:9-12), and the few symbols in Rev. that aren't explained afterward (e.g. Rev. 13:2) are usually explained elsewhere in the Bible (e.g. Dan. 7:4-7,17).

I never said Covenant Amil's reduce Revelation to a few short summary paragraphs. There are thousands of sermons worth of material in there.

I was merely summarising it to contrast the theological message that applies to all Christians across all time with your butchering of the book.

Please indicate how you feel each detail of Rev. chs. 6-22 can be included in a "theological" sermon "that applies to all Christians across all time".

Also, how do you feel futurism "butchers" Rev.?

I was comparing the meaning I would get from my hermeneutic of reading the biblical symbols in the context of the whole bible. We compare scripture with scripture to understand scripture.

Please indicate how you feel each detail of Rev. chs. 6-22 is a Biblical symbol comparable to other non-Rev. scripture.

But you make scripture dependent on today's headlines.

How?

Also, futurism looks at today's news re: geopolitics and technology simply in order to help believers consider different ways for how the never-fulfilled, yet still understandable, and almost entirely literal, highly-detailed prophecies in Rev. chs. 6-18 might be fulfilled in our future.

People 10 years ago probably wouldn't understand it, 100 years ago would not have a chance, and 1000 years ago? Utterly incomprehensible. Completely different planets! But hey, that's your hermeneutic. Now you have to defend it.

Futurism doesn't say Rev. was incomprehensible at all to former generations (see above).

You say it's literal, but cannot justify inserting 2000 years into the plot, cannot read all of it literally, and cannot even justify why you read it as a 'timetable' of future events at all!

Futurism doesn't say all of Rev. is literal or future, but that Rev. chs. 6-22 are a future and almost entirely literal timetable, for they're about "things which must be hereafter" (Rev. 4:1), and just as the glorious return of Jesus in Rev. 19:7-20:3 has never been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled almost entirely literally in our future, so the highly-detailed and chronological events of the preceding tribulation in Rev. chs. 6-18 have never been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled almost entirely literally in our future. Also, the millennium will be literal, and will begin after Jesus' 2nd coming (Rev. 19:7-20:6, Zech. 14:3-21), when he'll reign on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Rev. 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29, Ps. 2, 66:3-4). Also, Rev. chs. 6-22 aren't a general statement, but are detailed events, for there are so many of them, they're so varied, & they're chronological, & so long. To reduce all of them to 1, short general statement renders all their myriad, specific & amazing details utterly useless. It's like throwing Rev. chs. 6-22 into the trash, just to be done with them.

What you are intentionally ignoring is that if Revelation is indeed a series of theological sermons focussing on the gospel then *of course* Revelation will have reference to the return of Christ. The Return of Christ is part of the gospel. The writing in Revelation describes the same event repeatedly and from different angles and different images. This difference in symbolic description shows it to be theological in nature, not some sort of literal timeline.

Please indicate how you feel each detail of Rev. chs. 6-22 forms part of "a series of theological sermons focusing on the gospel", and "describes the same event repeatedly and from different angles and different images".

Otherwise the book contradicts itself in the later chapters when the world is judged and sin and Satan defeated... and then it's all back again in the next chapter! (See 17 to 20 for more details).

Please indicate what specific verses in Rev. chs. 17-20 you feel, if interpreted literally, would require "the world is judged and sin and Satan defeated... and then it's all back again in the next chapter!"

Then you don't understand these positions.

How not?

We see John as writing to comfort Christians ALREADY going through terrible tribulations.

How does what was said contradict that?

Your view just patronises them.

How?

We see it as an incredibly PRACTICAL book for all Christians in all ages, dealing with the temptation to give in under suffering and follow the worldly short-term gains of materialism and worldly power and success and sensuality.

Please indicate how you feel each detail of Rev. chs. 6-22 deals with those things, in all ages.

You see it as irrelevant to all but the last generation of Christians alive.

Futurism doesn't see Rev. that way. See the "relevant" part of post #49.

We see it as clear symbolic sermons that interprets themselves according to other symbols in the bible, and are applicable to all Christians in all situations.

Please indicate how you feel each detail of Rev. chs. 6-22 is a clear symbol that interprets itself according to other symbols in the Bible, and is applicable to all Christians in all situations.

You see it as utterly dependent on today's headlines, and therefore inaccessible to everyone before this generation.

Futurism doesn't see Rev. that way. See the "unsealed" and "news" parts of this post above.

We use a consistent symbolic hermeneutic.

Why? Also, please indicate what you feel each detail of Rev. chs. 6-22 symbolizes (consistently).

You use an inconsistent 'literal' hermeneutic which contradicts itself so frequently the system implodes.

Futurism's hermeneutic doesn't say everything in Rev. is literal. So how do you feel it's inconsistent or contradicts itself even once?

Does Jesus have 7 horns and 7 eyes or not?

He does symbolically, but not literally.

Is the book literal or not?

Parts of the book of Revelation are literal and parts are symbolic. E.g., parts of even the single verse of Rev. 5:6 are literal (the throne of God in heaven, the 4 beasts, the 24 elders, Jesus having been slain, the 7 Spirits of God, the earth) and parts of Rev. 5:6 are symbolic (Jesus being a Lamb, Jesus having 7 horns, Jesus having 7 eyes).

Nothing you have said addresses the fundamental point that your literal hermeneutic is inconsistently applied and a joke at best.

Again, futurism's hermeneutic doesn't say everything in Rev. is literal. So how do you feel it's inconsistently applied or is a joke?

That's pathetic.

How?

I pointed out that the wailing wall is not part of the temple buildings itself, but just an exterior retaining wall that holds in the dirt of the mound all those buildings were built on. Jesus was not talking about retaining walls for the dirt of the mound, but the buildings themselves!

Matthew 24:

"1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”"

And they were, in AD70. You would make the passage say the following!

1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its dirt foundations. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

Or is it this?

"1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down IN THE 3RD TEMPLE WHICH WILL BE BUILT 2000 YEARS FROM NOW. But as for THESE buildings that you just ASKED about, no, I've got nothing to say about those even though they're going to be destroyed in AD70!”"

Can you see how you don't even PRETEND to read this passage literally? They disciples are there, literally asking Jesus about THAT temple and how wonderful it was, and then they ask about its destruction. You want to shove it to some mythical, hypothetical, imaginary 3rd temple!

Yet you have the sheer audacity to claim YOU are the one who reads the bible literally? I find that offensive when you're taking such liberties with the text that a Liberal theologian would be proud!

They did NOT ask about a hypothetical 3rd temple! They asked about THAT temple, and the 'these things' Jesus responded to in plural were the temple buildings. Go on, show us one of the temple buildings that still stands? No, you can't can you. You can only play semantic games like 'temple complex', as if that somehow means you're pretending to read the passage literally. As CS Lewis would say, "Pish posh!" It's just nonsense. Everything about this passage screams that Jesus was warning about the destruction of THAT temple, that it would happen before THAT generation was over, and that they should get out of town before it happened.

Now how do you claim to have the literal high ground again?

Because Matthew 24:2 wasn't referring to only the single temple building in the center of the Temple Mount, or even to only the multiple temple-complex "buildings" in the common English sense of that word, but to "all these things", all the plural "buildings"/structures/oikodome (G3619) of the entire temple complex (Matthew 24:1), which includes the Wailing Wall structure, which still stands one stone upon another. See the "structures" part of post #46.