Be in pain and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion

[NightHawkeye]

So much of Micah 4 seems to fit current events
- a nation people flow into
- a nation which other nations imitate
- a nation where people live in peace
- a nation where people walk in the name of their own gods
- a mighty nation which rebukes other nations and removes their weapons
- a mighty nation which goes to Babylon in war
- a mighty nation which many nations are gathered against
- a nation which has lost leadership

Micah 4: But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.

For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.

In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted;

And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.

Now why dost thou cry out aloud? is there no king in thee? is thy counseller perished? for pangs have taken thee as a woman in travail.

Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.

Now also many nations are gathered against thee, that say, Let her be defiled, and let our eye look upon Zion.

But they know not the thoughts of the LORD, neither understand they his counsel: for he shall gather them as the sheaves into the floor.

Arise and thresh, O daughter of Zion: for I will make thine horn iron, and I will make thy hoofs brass: and thou shalt beat in pieces many people: and I will consecrate their gain unto the LORD, and their substance unto the Lord of the whole earth.
​

 

[eclipsenow]

So much of Micah 4 seems to fit current events
- a nation people flow into
- a nation which other nations imitate
- a nation where people live in peace
- a nation where people walk in the name of their own gods
- a mighty nation which rebukes other nations and removes their weapons
- a mighty nation which goes to Babylon in war
- a mighty nation which many nations are gathered against
- a nation which has lost leadership

Micah 4: But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.

For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.

In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted;

And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.

Now why dost thou cry out aloud? is there no king in thee? is thy counseller perished? for pangs have taken thee as a woman in travail.

Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.

Now also many nations are gathered against thee, that say, Let her be defiled, and let our eye look upon Zion.

But they know not the thoughts of the LORD, neither understand they his counsel: for he shall gather them as the sheaves into the floor.

Arise and thresh, O daughter of Zion: for I will make thine horn iron, and I will make thy hoofs brass: and thou shalt beat in pieces many people: and I will consecrate their gain unto the LORD, and their substance unto the Lord of the whole earth.
​

So much of Micah involves poetic imagery, such as some mountains lowered and the mountain of God raised, that I think you'll find that it's all imagery about the Lord Jesus. The whole Old Testament points towards the rule of Jesus Christ over his Kingdom (the church, comprised of both Jews and Gentiles). It's all fulfilled in Eschatological Tension, which basically means YES we are the kingdom of God, YES we are Princes and Princesses in the House of God, YES the High Priest rules us as our King and Protector, but no... we don't see him yet, and we suffer in this world as we try to obey him.

So EVERY promise to Israel was abundantly fulfilled in Jesus Christ; and WE are now the inheritors of Abraham's promises to be God's people, living God's way in God's land (the whole earth, eventually reformatted as heaven and earth join in the New World).

 

[NightHawkeye]

So much of Micah involves poetic imagery, such as some mountains lowered and the mountain of God raised, that I think you'll find that it's all imagery about the Lord Jesus.

Ahh ... imagery ... as in the next chapter's prophesied Messiah ... from Bethlehem. Though, granted, there are many who believe that didn't happen or hasn't yet happened. And, there's the prophesied "Assyrian" and the remnant of Jacob - who do God's bidding.

Micah 5: Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops: he hath laid siege against us: they shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek.

But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.

And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth.
​

And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men.
​

And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders.

And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men.

And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.
​

Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off.

And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots:

And I will cut off the cities of thy land, and throw down all thy strong holds:

And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thine hand; and thou shalt have no more soothsayers:

Thy graven images also will I cut off, and thy standing images out of the midst of thee; and thou shalt no more worship the work of thine hands.

And I will pluck up thy groves out of the midst of thee: so will I destroy thy cities.

And I will execute vengeance in anger and fury upon the heathen, such as they have not heard.

​

And, finally, judgement ...

 

[eclipsenow]

I don't know what you are trying to say. Just quoting vast chunks of KJV doesn't really do it for me. If you want to say something, choose a modern translation like the NIV and then share what you think it says.

 

[NightHawkeye]

I don't know what you are trying to say. Just quoting vast chunks of KJV doesn't really do it for me. If you want to say something, choose a modern translation like the NIV and then share what you think it says.

Allow me to be direct, then ...

You dismissed Micah 4 as mere imagery.

I pointed out that Micah 5 prophesied the following:

- messiah to come from Bethlehem, the better part of a millennium before Jesus was born
- Assyrian to come into the land of Micah 4 and tread in the palaces
- Jesus will bring peace at the time of the Assyrian
- The remnant of Jacob, who will be among the Gentiles, will rise up and not be stopped
​

Was the prophecy foretelling Jesus mere imagery? Many consider the prophecy about the Assyrian an explicit prophecy. Jesus brings peace and maintains peace ... not much doubt about all that.

So, it seems that much of Micah 5 is explicit prophecy, intertwined with Micah 4 ... rather than mere imagery.


Hope that helps clarify, Eclipsenow.

.

 

[zeke37]

these are a few reasons why i agree with B.I. (mostly)

Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.

And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men.

And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

 

[NightHawkeye]

these are a few reasons why i agree with B.I. (mostly)

Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.

And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men.

And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

Here's some more on the remnant and the Assyrian ... seems pretty explicit to me:

Isaiah 10:1 Woe unto them that decree unrighteous decrees, and that write grievousness which they have prescribed;
2 To turn aside the needy from judgment, and to take away the right from the poor of my people, that widows may be their prey, and that they may rob the fatherless!
3 And what will ye do in the day of visitation, and in the desolation which shall come from far? to whom will ye flee for help? and where will ye leave your glory?
4 Without me they shall bow down under the prisoners, and they shall fall under the slain. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.
5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.
6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
7 Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.
8 For he saith, Are not my princes altogether kings?
9 Is not Calno as Carchemish? is not Hamath as Arpad? is not Samaria as Damascus?
10 As my hand hath found the kingdoms of the idols, and whose graven images did excel them of Jerusalem and of Samaria;
11 Shall I not, as I have done unto Samaria and her idols, so do to Jerusalem and her idols?
12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord hath performed his whole work upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks.
13 For he saith, By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by my wisdom; for I am prudent: and I have removed the bounds of the people, and have robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant man:
14 And my hand hath found as a nest the riches of the people: and as one gathereth eggs that are left, have I gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved the wing, or opened the mouth, or peeped.
15 Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? or shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood.
16 Therefore shall the Lord, the Lord of hosts, send among his fat ones leanness; and under his glory he shall kindle a burning like the burning of a fire.
17 And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day;
18 And shall consume the glory of his forest, and of his fruitful field, both soul and body: and they shall be as when a standardbearer fainteth.
19 And the rest of the trees of his forest shall be few, that a child may write them.
20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
21 The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.
22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.
23 For the Lord GOD of hosts shall make a consumption, even determined, in the midst of all the land.
24 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD of hosts, O my people that dwellest in Zion, be not afraid of the Assyrian: he shall smite thee with a rod, and shall lift up his staff against thee, after the manner of Egypt. 25 For yet a very little while, and the indignation shall cease, and mine anger in their destruction. 26 And the LORD of hosts shall stir up a scourge for him according to the slaughter of Midian at the rock of Oreb: and as his rod was upon the sea, so shall he lift it up after the manner of Egypt. 27 And it shall come to pass in that day, that his burden shall be taken away from off thy shoulder, and his yoke from off thy neck, and the yoke shall be destroyed because of the anointing.
28 He is come to Aiath, he is passed to Migron; at Michmash he hath laid up his carriages:
29 They are gone over the passage: they have taken up their lodging at Geba; Ramah is afraid; Gibeah of Saul is fled.
30 Lift up thy voice, O daughter of Gallim: cause it to be heard unto Laish, O poor Anathoth.
31 Madmenah is removed; the inhabitants of Gebim gather themselves to flee.
32 As yet shall he remain at Nob that day: he shall shake his hand against the mount of the daughter of Zion, the hill of Jerusalem.
33 Behold, the Lord, the LORD of hosts, shall lop the bough with terror: and the high ones of stature shall be hewn down, and the haughty shall be humbled.
34 And he shall cut down the thickets of the forest with iron, and Lebanon shall fall by a mighty one.
​

 

[eclipsenow]

The real question is how did Jesus and the Apostles and Early Church view Israel and her promises? From what I've seen so far, even the Early Church fathers (who were premillennial) still saw most of the OT promises as being fulfilled in Jesus and the church.

Jesus clearly taught that his Kingdom was now those who trusted in him, and that if the Jews refused then the King would invite in all the strangers and tax collectors to the feast; that the very stones could be raised up as Sons of Abraham.

There simply isn't time for me to list all the "Kingdom" verses of the New Testament that show the Christian church (of both Jewish and Gentile believers) is THE PERMANENT new reality in the kingdom of God, already seated before God in heaven (Ephesians), and just awaiting his return.

OT prophecies against specific enemies of God are often more than just 'specific' but tend to become typological, especially in the poetic imagery of a book like Micah. Israel's then current enemy is often portrayed as typological of all God's enemies, and the judgements against them often extend into world-shattering metaphors. This is the language of kingdom's changing. The language of the new birth of the saviour - King. The language of Covenant's profoundly changing. And eventually, the language of the end of the world.

Therefore, any OT prophecies regarding specific enemies of God will be fulfilled when ALL wrongs are righted, ALL evil exposed, and ALL enemies of God destroyed on that great and final day of Judgement.

This is the Covenant theology approach to difficult chapters like this, and is the only approach that does them justice once the sweeping nature of Jesus proclamations about the new church/kingdom of God have been properly understood. There are simply no promises left for Israel because we ARE Israel. If you haven't understood that fundamental rule, then you've got the whole game out of whack.

 

[NightHawkeye]

This is the Covenant theology approach to difficult chapters like this, and is the only approach that does them justice once the sweeping nature of Jesus proclamations about the new church/kingdom of God have been properly understood. There are simply no promises left for Israel because we ARE Israel. If you haven't understood that fundamental rule, then you've got the whole game out of whack.

Ahh ... so the essence of your argument is that Micah is "difficult" ... Jesus' proclamations need to be properly understood ... and your interpretation is correct because you claim it to be ... and that anyone who doesn't understand that is "whacky".

I'm open to discussion, eclipsenow.

Dogma is the established belief or doctrine held by a religion, or a particular group or organization[1]. It is authoritative and not to be disputed, doubted, or diverged from, by the practitioners or believers. Although it generally refers to religious beliefs that are accepted without reason or evidence, they can refer to acceptable opinions of philosophers or philosophical schools, public decrees, or issued decisions of political authorities. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogma
​

Dogma, not so much ...

Consider this:

2 Corinthians 11:1-3 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
​

Call me simple.

 

[eclipsenow]

Well if you're open to 'Discussion' can you please prove it by using a decent modern translation? Ye's and thou's tend to indicate a closed, fundamentalist mindset to me; a mindset that says THE KJV RULES OK!!!! without any rational reason. If we're going to discuss the bible, can we do so in a modern English version please?

Doctor Kim Riddlebarger conclusively proves that the Kingdom of God in the New Testament is the church, and only the church. He was once a Dispensationalist, but is now a Covenant Theologian.

Part 1
http://links.christreformed.org/realaudio/A20090925-Amillenialism.mp3
Part 2
http://links.christreformed.org/realaudio/A20091002-Amillenialism.mp3


Try these two for a framework for this discussion.

 

[dana b]

Well if you're open to 'Discussion' can you please prove it by using a decent modern translation? Ye's and thou's tend to indicate a closed, fundamentalist mindset to me; a mindset that says THE KJV RULES OK!!!! without any rational reason. If we're going to discuss the bible, can we do so in a modern English version please?

Doctor Kim Riddlebarger conclusively proves that the Kingdom of God in the New Testament is the church, and only the church. He was once a Dispensationalist, but is now a Covenant Theologian.

Part 1
http://links.christreformed.org/realaudio/A20090925-Amillenialism.mp3
Part 2
http://links.christreformed.org/realaudio/A20091002-Amillenialism.mp3


Try these two for a framework for this discussion.

If I was an Orthodox Christian then I would read an Orthodox Bible. If I was a Cathholic then I would read the Vulgate. If I was an English or Germanic Protestant then I would read the King James or Luther's version. It's good for each people to keep their cultures somewhat intact. They have developed purposfully. And our Bible's and versions of cultural Christianity are part of this.

 

[eclipsenow]

Clarity is more important than Thees and Thous.

 

[NightHawkeye]

Well if you're open to 'Discussion' can you please prove it by using a decent modern translation? Ye's and thou's tend to indicate a closed, fundamentalist mindset to me; a mindset that says THE KJV RULES OK!!!! without any rational reason. If we're going to discuss the bible, can we do so in a modern English version please?

I'll be quite happy to discuss with you using your preferred translation, eclipsenow. By all means use the NIV.

At your request a few days ago I looked at the NIV, but that looked just about like the KJV to me. But, since you have a strong preference, here goes:

So much of Micah 4 seems to fit current events
- a nation people flow into
- a nation which other nations imitate
- a nation where people live in peace
- a nation where people walk in the name of their own gods
- a mighty nation which rebukes other nations and removes their weapons
- a mighty nation which goes to Babylon in war
- a mighty nation which many nations are gathered against
- a nation which has lost leadership

Micah 4: 1 In the last days the mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established as chief among the mountains; it will be raised above the hills, and peoples will stream to it.

2 Many nations will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths.” The law will go out from Zion, the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

3 He will judge between many peoples and will settle disputes for strong nations far and wide. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.

4 Every man will sit under his own vine and under his own fig tree, and no one will make them afraid, for the Lord Almighty has spoken.

5 All the nations may walk in the name of their gods; we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever and ever.

The Lord’s Plan

6 “In that day,” declares the Lord, “I will gather the lame; I will assemble the exiles and those I have brought to grief.

7 I will make the lame a remnant, those driven away a strong nation. The Lord will rule over them in Mount Zion from that day and forever.

8 As for you, O watchtower of the flock, O strongholda of the Daughter of Zion, the former dominion will be restored to you; kingship will come to the Daughter of Jerusalem.”

9 Why do you now cry aloud—have you no king? Has your counselor perished, that pain seizes you like that of a woman in labor?

10 Writhe in agony, O Daughter of Zion, like a woman in labor, for now you must leave the city to camp in the open field. You will go to Babylon; there you will be rescued. There the Lord will redeem you out of the hand of your enemies.

11 But now many nations are gathered against you. They say, “Let her be defiled, let our eyes gloat over Zion!”

12 But they do not know the thoughts of the Lord; they do not understand his plan, he who gathers them like sheaves to the threshing floor.

13 “Rise and thresh, O Daughter of Zion, for I will give you horns of iron; I will give you hoofs of bronze and you will break to pieces many nations.” You will devote their ill-gotten gains to the Lord, their wealth to the Lord of all the earth.
​

Hopefully, that helps you out a little, eclipsenow. Let me know.

Doctor Kim Riddlebarger conclusively proves that the Kingdom of God in the New Testament is the church, and only the church. He was once a Dispensationalist, but is now a Covenant Theologian.

Part 1
http://links.christreformed.org/realaudio/A20090925-Amillenialism.mp3
Part 2
http://links.christreformed.org/realaudio/A20091002-Amillenialism.mp3

Try these two for a framework for this discussion.

Is there a transcript for these? I couldn't find anything when I searched.

 

[josephearl]

“And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:” (Revelation 7:4, NASB95)

These are Jewish believers. There is not one man alive on the earth who could know who is of which tribe for all 12 tribes. Even Cohen and Levi's might not be of the tribe of Levi. Only the Lord could know that and he says rather clearly a day is coming when His angel will put a seal on 144,000 Israeli men who can trace their DNA back to these sons of Jacob. I call that prophecy concerning Israel that is yet future. But then again there are likely hundreds of them I just chose this one example.

 

[eclipsenow]

I'll be quite happy to discuss with you using your preferred translation, eclipsenow. By all means use the NIV.

Thanks, much appreciated.

Micah is a fascinating case in point. I'm glad you raised it. This is my take on it.

Micah can't see the difference between the 2 advents of Jesus. For him the Day of the Lord is all one thing. So the future is 'flattened'. There's no suffering servant king first time round, conquering Messiah on the return. It's all the 'Day of the Lord' and that means JUDGEMENT! The 2 advents of Jesus incarnation do not seem to be fully fleshed out as separate events. (No wonder the Pharisees were confused by Jesus.) This 'flattening' of the Day of the Lord is not just Micah, but all through the OT prophets.

As the New Bible Commentary (DA Carson as editor) puts it:

"Prophets did not see the centuries that separated them from the fulfilment of their predictions but saw future happenings as imminent events on a flat tableau. Moreover, they described the future in terms drawn from their own experience (see Micah 4:1, Is 25:10, Am: 9:12)."

Micah speaks in the symbols of his day, full of theological significance and future Messianic expectation, indeed, Kingdom expectation.

Micah 4
1. In the last days

"the mountain of the LORD’s temple will be established
as the highest of the mountains;
it will be exalted above the hills,
and peoples will stream to it."

Is God going to raise the temple on Jerusalem and push the temple mount up higher than even Everest in the last days? Or is this symbolic of something? Well, lets investigate. According to the Sydney Anglican scholars I read, the Ancient Middle East cultures often considered mountains as symbols of a place where heaven and earth met and mankind could almost reach up to the gods. (High = closer to the stars and heavens). It's old pagan thinking, akin to the old Babylonian ideas of Marduk being the 'Cloud Rider', but the Hebrew prophets were not afraid of borrowing imagery used by the nations around them and turning this imagery on it's head!

So what we see here is that Jerusalem will become the 'highest mountain' (place where heaven and earth meet). How will this be accomplished? Well, how does God steep down to rescue mankind? In the cross. Jesus the God-man dies for us, and rises again, on a cross outside Jerusalem. On the Holy Mountain.

The book of Hebrews translates the gathering of the church on earth into spiritual language of us gathering around the Heavenly Mount Zion. We're the church! We're God's kingdom! We are the fulfilment of Micah 4, sitting on a mountain so 'high' it is in heaven itself! (According to Hebrews).

Which makes sense of Micah 1's judgements. Samaria was the high town where the Northern Kingdom built their counterfeit temple. Micah's imagery explains that God wasn't just going to attack it with the Assyrians, but so pulverise it that the very 'mountains' would melt. Their very access to their pagan gods, their high mountain, would be melted down. This picture language removes their ability to climb high to 'heaven'.

Now, Jesus later meets the Samarian woman at the well and offers her living water. He's borrowing again from OT prophets showing the mountain of God, but in some of them the mountain splits and sends vast rivers of fresh water that flow out to all the earth. When Jesus offers the Samarian woman living water, that's what he is referring to.

So here I am, and Australian Gentile, meeting on God's Holy Spiritual mountain every time I pray (Hebrews) and drinking of the living water that flows out from it, the gospel.

The mountain and river connection in other prophets and Jesus living water imagery therefore connects the dots so that a picture emerges where I, as an Australian Christian, fulfil the prophecy in Micah 4. For am I not 'streaming to it' as I have faith in Christ and meet with his universal kingdom on the Holy Mountain? (Hebrews). Do I not participate in streams of living water that flow to me from the death of Jesus on Mount Zion several millennia ago? Has not the law and gospel gone out of Zion, the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And will not all God's great promises to his kingdom, us Christians, be fulfilled when he brings in his new heaven and new earth and all His enemies are judged?

Is there a transcript for these? I couldn't find anything when I searched.

Sorry, I couldn't find it either. Which is a shame. He's quite easy to listen to though. Much easier than reading one of his heroes, Geerhardus Vos, below. I'll try and find something better written for the layman, the material below is a bit technical and dry and a teeny bit waffly, even if very thorough.

http://www.biblicaltheology.org/kg.pdf

 

[NightHawkeye]

“And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:” (Revelation 7:4, NASB95)

These are Jewish believers. There is not one man alive on the earth who could know who is of which tribe for all 12 tribes. Even Cohen and Levi's might not be of the tribe of Levi. Only the Lord could know that and he says rather clearly a day is coming when His angel will put a seal on 144,000 Israeli men who can trace their DNA back to these sons of Jacob. I call that prophecy concerning Israel that is yet future. But then again there are likely hundreds of them I just chose this one example.

Agreed. This is an explicit prophecy, and it's mentioned multiple places. Presumably, these are the "remnant of Jacob" mentioned in Micah 5.

In addition to Revelation 7, they are also mentioned in Revelation 14 ...

Rev 14:1-5 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.
​

... and Revelation 15 ...

Rev 15:1-4 I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed. And I saw what looked like a sea of glass mixed with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and over the number of his name. They held harps given them by God and sang the song of Moses the servant of God and the song of the Lamb:

“Great and marvelous are your deeds, Lord God Almighty.
Just and true are your ways, King of the ages.

Who will not fear you, O Lord, and bring glory to your name?
For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous acts have been revealed.”
​

... and Revelation 19 ...

Rev 19:11-15 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter. He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.
​

Which ties all the way back to Micah 4 ...

Micah 4:13 “Rise and thresh, O Daughter of Zion, for I will give you horns of iron;I will give you hoofs of bronze and you will break to pieces many nations.” You will devote their ill-gotten gains to the Lord, their wealth to the Lord of all the earth.
​

Only question seems to be how much is explicit prophecy versus how much is figurative imagery.

 

[eclipsenow]

The 144,000 of God's kingdom is symbolic number imagery in the most image intensive book in the bible. Reading it literally is just madness! Just as Hebrews used 3 fold repetition to indicate emphasis, like "Holy Holy Holy" in words, they sometimes included 3 fold multiplication to indicate something in numbers.

For instance, 666 instead of 777 is symbolic of man (made on the 6th day, with 6 days of work) instead of God's perfection in the number 7.

It's the same with 144k. It's simply the complete number of God's people. It's 12 tribes times 12 apostles times 1000, the number of complete fullness.

Otherwise, reading it literally, it's 144 thousand male Jewish virgins. And Jesus looks like a lamb with 7 eyes and 7 horns and has a sword coming out of his mouth! But hey, if you can just stretch yourselves to see that passage about Jesus as symbolic, and not LITERALLY describing him as having a sword in his mouth, then maybe, just maybe the 144,000 really is symbolic. As is the '1000 years'. Show me a place in the whole bible where 1000 is used literally?

 

[NightHawkeye]

The 144,000 of God's kingdom is symbolic number imagery in the most image intensive book in the bible. Reading it literally is just madness! Just as Hebrews used 3 fold repetition to indicate emphasis, like "Holy Holy Holy" in words, they sometimes included 3 fold multiplication to indicate something in numbers.

For instance, 666 instead of 777 is symbolic of man (made on the 6th day, with 6 days of work) instead of God's perfection in the number 7.

It's the same with 144k. It's simply the complete number of God's people. It's 12 tribes times 12 apostles times 1000, the number of complete fullness.

Otherwise, reading it literally, it's 144 thousand male Jewish virgins. And Jesus looks like a lamb with 7 eyes and 7 horns and has a sword coming out of his mouth! But hey, if you can just stretch yourselves to see that passage about Jesus as symbolic, and not LITERALLY describing him as having a sword in his mouth, then maybe, just maybe the 144,000 really is symbolic. As is the '1000 years'. Show me a place in the whole bible where 1000 is used literally?

And yet Micah foretold of a future time when the messiah would come, just as Revelation foretold of a future time when the millennial kingdom would come.

If we accept Revelation as all figurative imagery, then there would seem to be a clear contradiction with the explicit messiah prophecy in Micah. If I recall correctly, Micah was written more than 700 years before Jesus was born.

It would seem to make little logical sense to accept the foretelling of Jesus as the only literal part of Micah's prophecy. There is still the matter of the Assyrian, the rule with an iron rod and other seemingly explicit prophecies.

You avoided addressing those issues though, so I'll just offer to you that we all interpret the Bible as we are led. I see it as much more than a simple set of stories teaching life lessons. The law is in Deuteronomy, where the choices between good and evil are spelled out. The consequences of those choices are outlined in Revelation.

RRev 22:10-17 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely .​

 

[eclipsenow]

And yet Micah foretold of a future time when the messiah would come, just as Revelation foretold of a future time when the millennial kingdom would come.

Jesus did arrive and fulfil Micah's prophesies. The millennium has arrived with the 'first resurrection' of Jesus and the gospel message (and all Christian martyrs who go to heaven, where the SECOND death has no power over them, because the FIRST death DID! ). We're in the 'millennium' now and have been for the last 2000 years! The gospel goes forth, and Satan is bound in regards to deceiving whole nations. Wherever the gospel goes, there are pockets of faithful believers.

If we accept Revelation as all figurative imagery, then there would seem to be a clear contradiction with the explicit messiah prophecy in Micah. If I recall correctly, Micah was written more than 700 years before Jesus was born.

Not sure why Revelation being metaphorical and symbolic does anything to discredit Micah.

It would seem to make little logical sense to accept the foretelling of Jesus as the only literal part of Micah's prophecy. There is still the matter of the Assyrian, the rule with an iron rod and other seemingly explicit prophecies.

But that's unfair. You want us to take the Assyrian defeat literally but not apply the same literal standard to the Mountain of God rising and the Mountain of Samaria sinking? What other metaphors for Jesus and the gospel age are you happy to read as metaphors, while insisting the defeat of Assyria is literal? The book is scattered with a variety of metaphors and symbols of larger truths, but you're stuck on insisting we read the Assyrian defeat literally. Newsflash: Assyria doesn't exist any more! Trying to imply that some modern Middle-East nation is 'Assyria' is taking as much metaphorical allegorical liberty with the passage as Amil's who insist it is allegory for all God's enemies being defeated on Judgement Day! But Jesus shows us God's prophecies didn't 'fail', but were fulfilled in a completely unexpected way. The Messiah King did NOT arrive in judgement in his first saving visit to us, and did NOT defeat Assyria. But he did judge it and the whole of humanity and indeed, this entire universe when he died on the tree.

You avoided addressing those issues though, so I'll just offer to you that we all interpret the Bible as we are led. I see it as much more than a simple set of stories teaching life lessons.

No, that's horrifying allegory, stripping it back to some kind of personal life story... "What does it mean to me today?" No, I'm not doing that at all. I'm doing biblical theology, trying to place Micah in it's overall place in redemptive history.

I'm trying to understand why God's prophecy here appears to have failed, even though I know it never does. Assyria doesn't exist any more, but it wasn't the Messiah who raced out to defeat her. So ... it must be tied into the imagery of "Assyria" as the enemy, just as later biblical imagery of Revelation uses the common form of "Babylon" to mean more than Israel's enemies in the Old Testament.

 

[dana b]

The 144,000 of God's kingdom is symbolic number imagery in the most image intensive book in the bible. Reading it literally is just madness! Just as Hebrews used 3 fold repetition to indicate emphasis, like "Holy Holy Holy" in words, they sometimes included 3 fold multiplication to indicate something in numbers.

For instance, 666 instead of 777 is symbolic of man (made on the 6th day, with 6 days of work) instead of God's perfection in the number 7.

It's the same with 144k. It's simply the complete number of God's people. It's 12 tribes times 12 apostles times 1000, the number of complete fullness.

Otherwise, reading it literally, it's 144 thousand male Jewish virgins. And Jesus looks like a lamb with 7 eyes and 7 horns and has a sword coming out of his mouth! But hey, if you can just stretch yourselves to see that passage about Jesus as symbolic, and not LITERALLY describing him as having a sword in his mouth, then maybe, just maybe the 144,000 really is symbolic. As is the '1000 years'. Show me a place in the whole bible where 1000 is used literally?

Yes, the threefold repetition is found in many places. Mankind is created in verse 27.(3 times 3 times 3) This verse consists of three small sentences also a trinity. Then Adam is made in Gen.2;7 So you have seen this too.

also you mention 144,000

......................24 hours in a day
..............times 6 days of creation
...........equals 144 (12 tribes times 12 apostles)
.............times 1000 - a day = 1000 2 Pet.3;8
................is 144,000 of Rev.7,14 and 21

Fasinating stuff isn't it!