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Basic questions about Islam (2)

juvenissun

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Hello,

I hope the Sister will forgive me if I make a contribution:

There is no concept of original sin in Islam; and so it is not possible for a new-born baby to be anything other than sinless.

‘Say: “Should I seek a Lord other than Allāh, when He is the Lord of all things?” Each soul is responsible for its own actions; no soul will bear the burden of another. You will all return to your Lord in the end, and He will tell you the truth about your differences.

(Al-An‘am:164).
...

Islam teaches that the lesson from each of the verses I have quoted is clear enough: That Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla), who is Just, will never punish people for the sins of others.

I hope this helps.

I like the quoted red text. Thanks.

Allah is just. If so, how could he "forgive" sin without giving punishment? If he does that, then what does the "just" mean?
 
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smaneck

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I like the quoted red text. Thanks.

Allah is just. If so, how could he "forgive" sin without giving punishment? If he does that, then what does the "just" mean?

In Islam God can forgive any way He wishes. He is not bound by human, abstract notions of Justice and Mercy as the Anselmian formulation that has dominated much of Western Christianity. Let me explain Anselm had a neo-platonic conception of God as possessing both perfect Justice and Mercy which must be satisfied. Because of His perfect Justice He cannot forgive sins without satisfaction. And because He is merciful the means had to provided for making that satisfaction. Living in the hierarchical world of early medieval Europe, Anselm felt the gravity of a sin or crime was measured by the station of the one against whom the crime or sin had been forgiven. God being exalted above all stations, it stood to reason that a sin against Him was of infinite
gravity with eternal repercussions. It therefore incurred a debt which man could not hope to satisfy. The only way in which the satisfaction could be made, and men could be set free from sin, was for God Himself to make the satisfaction as a man. This formula seems to have more to do with 'fire insurance' than a relationship, except if one is seeing 'relationship' in cold, legalistic terms. It seems to me this is necessarily so, because when God's attributes are seen these kinds of static categories of Justice and Mercy we are trying to look at God in Greek terms of essence rather than Abrahamic conception of God as a Living God, a Person (by which is meant that Divine Will has priority over essence.) And we can only have a relationship with the latter, not the former. Perhaps that is why the Qur'an conceives of God as closer to us than our jugular vein.
Ultimately God will not fit into our human conceptions of Justice and Mercy. In the end we all must testify, "God doeth whatsoever He willeth." That means He can forgive any way He chooses. Now that maybe at variance with Christian theology but I don't think it is at variance with Christ. Someone already pointed us to Matthew 20 in this thread. Perhaps we should review that parable again.
 
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smaneck

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Can't a manifestation make restitution for the sins of man if he so wishes?

Yes, but then we are talking about the Baha'i Faith not Islam. While the concept of Manifestation exists in Shi'ite Islam, most Sunnis would not accept it. However, in Shi'ite Islam the martyrdom of the Imam Husayn has that redemptive power.

If I can be forgiven for going into more depth about the Baha'i concept of atonement and sacrifice, there are passages in the Baha'i Writings that appear to accept the notion of atonement and sacrifices for sin. For instance:

"That which thou hast heard concerning Abraham, the Friend of the All-Merciful, is the truth, and no doubt is there about it. The Voice of God commanded Him to offer up Ishmael as a sacrifice, so that His steadfastness in the Faith of God and His detachment from all else but Him may be demonstrated unto men. The purpose of God, moreover, was to sacrifice him as a ransom for the sins and iniquities of all the peoples of the earth. This same honor, Jesus, the Son of Mary, besought the one true God, exalted be His name and glory, to confer upon Him. For the same reason was Husayn offered up as a sacrifice by
Muhammad, the Apostle of God.
No man can ever claim to have comprehended the nature of the hidden andmanifold grace of God; none can fathom His all-embracing mercy. Such hath been the perversity of men and their transgressions, so grievous have been the trials that have afflicted the Prophets of God and their chosen ones, that all mankind deserveth to be tormented and to perish. God's hidden and most loving providence, however, hath, through both visible and invisible agencies, protected and will continue to protect it from the penalty of its wickedness. Ponder this in thine heart, that the truth may be revealed unto thee, and be thou steadfast in His path." Gleanings 75-76.

Likewise He speaks of Himself:

"Fix your gaze upon Him Who is the Temple of God amongst men. He, in truth, hath offered up His life as a ransom for the redemption of the world. He, verily, is the All-Bountiful, the Gracious, the Most High.If any differences arise amongst you, behold Me standing before your face, and overlook the faults of one another for My name's sake and as a token of your love for My manifest and resplendent Cause." Gleanings, 314.

So the Writings do speak of ransom but they also speak of repentance as being the sole prerequisite of forgiveness. We even have references to the kind of 'death-bed' conversions that some people make fun of Christianity for:

"He should forgive the sinful, and never despise his low estate, for none knoweth what his own end shall be. How often hath a sinner, at the hour of death, attained to the essence of faith, and, quaffing the immortal draught, hath taken his flight unto the celestial Concourse. And how often hath a devout believer, at the hour of his soul's ascension, been so changed as to
fall into the nethermost fire." KI 194-95

He likewise says; "Should anyone be afflicted by a sin, it behoveth him to repent thereof and return unto his Lord. He, verily, granteth forgiveness unto whomsoever He willeth, and none may question that which it pleaseth Him to ordain."

Repentance doesn't mean simply feeling sorry for one sins, it means turning towards God. One story that is told about Muslim mystic Rabi'a is that one day she came upon Hasan al-Basra (an earlier Muslim mystic) who was weeping and wailing over his sins, saying what a wretched man he was. Rabi'a said, "Yes, you are. Because had you truly turned towards God you would be looking at Him and not noticing your own sins."

If repentance is the only prerequisite for forgiveness why then does Baha'u'llah speak of 'ransoms'? Perhaps it is because only these kinds of sacrifices which make true repentance, true focusing on God out of love possible. This is what another medieval Christian theologian, Peter of Abelard argued. He held that the Crucifixion was necessary to forgive men's sin not because it was required on God's part but because only such a dramatic expression of God's love would enable people to repent and cause them to turn towards Him.

It strikes me that this form of atonement, unlike Anselm's formulation is relational. But it is also something which could not be done once and never again as in Christianity. If it is indeed grounded in God's determination to reach us, instead of satisfying some abstract requirements of the Divine Essence, then it would happen again and again as Baha'u'llah seems to affirm.

I think there is a great danger in seeing God as static, understandable by human categories like justice and mercy as Anselm liked to do. The God of Abraham was a Living God, a Person and like all persons (and unlike pure essences) He had a Will, one like all wills was subject to change on occasion. It seems to me this attempt to make God fit our mental conceptions, to put Him
into a predictable box is in the end, a form of idolatry. The Living God is not so predictable. He fulfills prophecies in ways we don't expect, and at times appears to fulfill them not at all.

Now that is a very long answer to your very short question.
 
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juvenissun

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In Islam God can forgive any way He wishes. He is not bound by human, abstract notions of Justice and Mercy as the Anselmian formulation that has dominated much of Western Christianity. Let me explain Anselm had a neo-platonic conception of God as possessing both perfect Justice and Mercy which must be satisfied. Because of His perfect Justice He cannot forgive sins without satisfaction. And because He is merciful the means had to provided for making that satisfaction. Living in the hierarchical world of early medieval Europe, Anselm felt the gravity of a sin or crime was measured by the station of the one against whom the crime or sin had been forgiven. God being exalted above all stations, it stood to reason that a sin against Him was of infinite
gravity with eternal repercussions. It therefore incurred a debt which man could not hope to satisfy. The only way in which the satisfaction could be made, and men could be set free from sin, was for God Himself to make the satisfaction as a man. This formula seems to have more to do with 'fire insurance' than a relationship, except if one is seeing 'relationship' in cold, legalistic terms. It seems to me this is necessarily so, because when God's attributes are seen these kinds of static categories of Justice and Mercy we are trying to look at God in Greek terms of essence rather than Abrahamic conception of God as a Living God, a Person (by which is meant that Divine Will has priority over essence.) And we can only have a relationship with the latter, not the former. Perhaps that is why the Qur'an conceives of God as closer to us than our jugular vein.
Ultimately God will not fit into our human conceptions of Justice and Mercy. In the end we all must testify, "God doeth whatsoever He willeth." That means He can forgive any way He chooses. Now that maybe at variance with Christian theology but I don't think it is at variance with Christ. Someone already pointed us to Matthew 20 in this thread. Perhaps we should review that parable again.

Is human "created" by Allah? Should a Muslim believe in biologic evolution which said that human evolved from chimp?
 
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smaneck

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Is human "created" by Allah? Should a Muslim believe in biologic evolution which said that human evolved from chimp?

Darwinism never claimed that humans evolved from chimps. Rather it argues that chimps and humans share a common ancestor. Yes, Islam teaches that humans and everything else were created by God. "He hath only to say of a thing "Be" and it is." There are the same debates about evolution in Islam that you find in Christianity. Personally, I don't have any trouble believing that God created us through means of evolution.
 
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juvenissun

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Darwinism never claimed that humans evolved from chimps. Rather it argues that chimps and humans share a common ancestor. Yes, Islam teaches that humans and everything else were created by God. "He hath only to say of a thing "Be" and it is." There are the same debates about evolution in Islam that you find in Christianity. Personally, I don't have any trouble believing that God created us through means of evolution.

If you do so, then it mean you believe that Allah does not directly create human. Right?
Could animal go to Paradise too? Why not?
 
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smaneck

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If you do so, then it mean you believe that Allah does not directly create human. Right?

I think God is intimately involved in creation at every moment. The dominant theology among Sunni Muslims, the Asharite theology holds that creation is made up of atoms which resemble more points on a line than atoms as we think of them. Ultimately the only continuity which exists between those atoms is the active presence of God.

Could animal go to Paradise too? Why not?

I don't know that Islam addresses that question, but Zoroastrianism, the first religion to express the concept of the Resurrection and the Judgement Daym held that animals rose as well. And hell, according to this theology could not be eternal. For Ahura Mazda (the Wise Lord) to win the final victory over Ahriman (the Evil One) the entire good creation must finally be redeemed. I like that.
 
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smaneck

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Does Islam allow polygamy? Homosexual?

Polygamy already existed among the Arabs at the time. The Qur'an limited the number of wives a man could have to four and then only if they were all treated equally, something most Muslims recognize as impossible. This was allowed in the context of needing to protect the widows and orphans created by warfare.
Homosexual behavior is not considered acceptable in Islam.
 
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juvenissun

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Polygamy already existed among the Arabs at the time. The Qur'an limited the number of wives a man could have to four and then only if they were all treated equally, something most Muslims recognize as impossible. This was allowed in the context of needing to protect the widows and orphans created by warfare.
Homosexual behavior is not considered acceptable in Islam.

So, polygamy is legally allowed, and homosexual is legally banned in Muslim countries. Right? Is there any Quran verse which explicitly allow polygamy?
Is homosexual a sin in Islam?
How about transgender?
 
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juvenissun

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In practice yes, although the Qur'an says of the Prophets "We make no difference between them."

If so, why is Muhammad a more important man? Is he a messenger or a prophet or both or more than both?
If I said something against Muhammad, would I be punished?
 
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Hello,

I hope the Sister will forgive me if I make a contribution:

There is nothing to forgive! You gave an excellent answer mashaAllaah.

Logically, the highlighted words is not enough to guarantee a sinless baby.

It does, honestly. If no soul shall bear the burden of another's sins, then there is no possible way for a baby to already have sins when it is born as it cannot commit bad deeds. Plus, we know that those under the age of puberty are not held accountable.

There is nothing in Islaam that indicates that we carry the blame for the sin of someone else in which we played no part. To say otherwise would be to go against the Islaamic proof available (and logic).

However, this question could also be applied to a person who committed sin at the first time. Where does that sin come from if he did not have sin before?

From himself as he has free will.

The purpose of this argument is trying to push you for a more appropriate verse which teaches a sinless baby. This is also related to the origin of sin in the doctrine.

But why? The sinful baby is a teaching of Christianity. I don't see why we have to have to show the opposite of this in order to claim that there isn't such a concept in Islaam. The evidence that we do have refutes the concept of being blamed for another's sins for no reason. Besides, we believe Adam (peace be upon him) was forgiven so even if sins were illogically passed down, Adam and Eve (peace be upon them) were already forgiven.

How to become a Messenger? (Is he higher than, say, a martyr? I think it is pretty easy to be a martyr, isn't it?)

Only Allaah knows who is truly a martyr. And one cannot choose to become a Messenger, God chooses the person. It is not possible for anyone else to become a Messenger after the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) as he is the final one.

Allah is just. If so, how could he "forgive" sin without giving punishment? If he does that, then what does the "just" mean?

Allaah is Just and won't wrong anyone or punish them an iota more than they deserve. It is out of His Mercy that He grants anyone Paradise, even the best of mankind.

The Messenger of Allaah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “When Allah decreed the creation, he wrote in his Book with him on his Throne: My mercy prevails over my wrath.” [Saheeh al-Bukhaari and Muslim]

Can't a manifestation make restitution for the sins of man if he so wishes?

We don't liken Allaah to His creation nor do we give His Names or Attributes to other than Him. We only ask Allaah for forgiveness for our sins (unless we're asking forgiveness from someone for taking away their rights).
 
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juvenissun

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Only Allaah knows who is truly a martyr. And one cannot choose to become a Messenger, God chooses the person. It is not possible for anyone else to become a Messenger after the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) as he is the final one.

Who were Messengers before Muhammad? Why is Muhammad the last one?
 
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smaneck

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So, polygamy is legally allowed, and homosexual is legally banned in Muslim countries. Right? Is there any Quran verse which explicitly allow polygamy?
Is homosexual a sin in Islam?
How about transgender?

Liwat or Homosexual relations are what is banned not being a homosexual. As for transgender people, Islam appears to be fairly accepting of that so long as they don't engage in any illicit sexual relations. When Muhammad was asked why he didn't execute someone who was transgendered , he answered he wouldn't kill anyone who prayed. In both Egypt and Iran fatwas or religious rulings have been issued allowing for surgical reassignment. As for polygamy, I'll give you the Qur'anic passage later, right now my computer's acting up and won't let me cut and paste.
 
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smaneck

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Here is the passage from the Qur'an allowing polygamy:

"Give unto orphans their wealth. Exchange not the good for the bad nor absorb their wealth into your own wealth. Lo! that would be a great sin. And if ye fear that ye will not deal fairly by the orphans, marry of the women, who seem good to you, two or three or four; and if ye fear that ye cannot do justice then one (only) or those that your right hands possess. Thus it is more likely that ye will not do injustice."
 
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juvenissun

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Here is the passage from the Qur'an allowing polygamy:

"Give unto orphans their wealth. Exchange not the good for the bad nor absorb their wealth into your own wealth. Lo! that would be a great sin. And if ye fear that ye will not deal fairly by the orphans, marry of the women, who seem good to you, two or three or four; and if ye fear that ye cannot do justice then one (only) or those that your right hands possess. Thus it is more likely that ye will not do injustice."

This is about practice. Is there any theoretical base about polygamy?
Why can a man have a few wife, but not a woman has a few husband?
 
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juvenissun

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Liwat or Homosexual relations are what is banned not being a homosexual. As for transgender people, Islam appears to be fairly accepting of that so long as they don't engage in any illicit sexual relations. When Muhammad was asked why he didn't execute someone who was transgendered , he answered he wouldn't kill anyone who prayed. In both Egypt and Iran fatwas or religious rulings have been issued allowing for surgical reassignment. As for polygamy, I'll give you the Qur'anic passage later, right now my computer's acting up and won't let me cut and paste.

How could transgender process take place at the time of Muhammad? Does it mean man wears woman's dresses or vice versa?
 
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