Basic questions about Islam (2)

[juvenissun]

For those who like to attack Islam, this is NOT the thread for you. If you do that, I will request that your post be removed. If you really want to express some doubts about Islam, please make your comment in the form of a question.

Now, the question:

A good man and a repented bad man both go to the Paradise. Then where is the fairness for the good man?

 

[smaneck]

A good man and a repented bad man both go to the Paradise. Then where is the fairness for the good man?

I don't that by the time he reaches Paradise he is bad any longer. I think there is in fact such a thing as deathbed conversions, but it involves not just a change in beliefs but a transformation of ones entire being.

 

[Arthra]

juvenissun wrote:

"A good man and a repented bad man both go to the Paradise. Then where is the fairness for the good man?"

Reminds me of the parable of the workers in the vinyard...in Matthew 20:1-16.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+20:1-16

The parable by the way has been compared to the past dispensations... The earliest believers and those who came later represent later religions.

 

[juvenissun]

I don't that by the time he reaches Paradise he is bad any longer. I think there is in fact such a thing as deathbed conversions, but it involves not just a change in beliefs but a transformation of ones entire being.

A good Muslim devote his whole life time to obey Allah. A repented bad person can do and enjoy 40 years bad things, but repented for, say 3 years, but would be lifted up to the Paradise and enjoy the same happiness as the good man can. This is unfair. How does the Quran explain this situation?

 

[juvenissun]

juvenissun wrote:

"A good man and a repented bad man both go to the Paradise. Then where is the fairness for the good man?"

Reminds me of the parable of the workers in the vinyard...in Matthew 20:1-16.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+20:1-16

The parable by the way has been compared to the past dispensations... The earliest believers and those who came later represent later religions.

This is a question in Christianity too. But this thread is not trying to talk about it. I want to focus on the understanding of Islam.

 

[Niblo]

Hello juvenissun.

You write:

‘A good Muslim devotes his whole life time to obey Allah. A repented bad person can do and enjoy 40 years bad things, but repented for, say 3 years, but would be lifted up to the Paradise and enjoy the same happiness as the good man can. This is unfair. How does the Quran explain this situation?’

Comment:

Many times a day - in the course of formal prayer and in their private devotions - Muslims recite the words: ‘The Lord of Mercy’; ‘The Giver of Mercy’; ‘The Compassionate’; ‘The Merciful’.

These are some of the Beloved‘s Names. We did not give them to Him, He chose them for Himself. Of all His Names these are His favorite. That is why we are asked to speak them so often - so that we do not forget Who it is that loves us; Who it is that binds us to Himself with ties of tenderness, mercy and forgiveness.

Islam teaches that sincere and genuine repentance transforms an evil deed into a good one: ‘Those who repent, believe, and do good deeds, Allāh will change the evil deeds of such people into good ones. He is most forgiving, most merciful’ (Al-Furqan: 70).

A Muslim, mindful of her Lord’s mercy and compassion, would have no problem accepting the truth contained in the Parable of the Workers (Matthew 20: 1-16)…..referred to in an earlier post.

Those who imagine that because they have spent years in the service of their Lord - repenting of their sins, and striving always to be obedient - they are somehow better than one who comes to repentance later in life (perhaps even at the very end of life) are mistaken. Saint Augustine of Hippo wrote: ‘Late have I loved thee, O Beauty ever ancient, ever new, late have I loved thee! (Confessions). He knew perfectly well that sincere repentance - no matter how late in life it is made - is a good deed. Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) has said, of such deeds: ‘Shall the reward of good be anything but good?’ (Al-Rahman: 60).

‘For men and women who are devoted to Allāh - believing men and women, obedient men and women, truthful men and women, steadfast men and women, humble men and women, charitable men and women, fasting men and women, chaste men and women, men and women who remember Allāh often - Allāh has prepared forgiveness and a rich reward.’

(Al-Ahzab: 35).

As far as the Beloved is concerned devotion to Him; belief in Him; obedience to Him; remembrance of Him all begin with a single act of sincere contrition….and if that single act is all that one has time for - before death comes - then that is enough for Him. It ought to be enough for us simply to rejoice in His mercy.…freely given…..rather than grumble over whom He gives it to, and when.

 

[smaneck]

I think such things serve as a reminder that ultimately our salvation rests with God and not with ourselves. Baha'u'llah when speaking of the true seeker writes:

"He should forgive the sinful, and never despise his low estate, for none knoweth what his own end shall be. How often hath a sinner attained, at the hour of death, to the essence of faith, and, quaffing the immortal draught, hath taken his flight unto the Concourse on high! And how often hath a devout believer, at the hour of his soul’s ascension, been so changed as to fall into the nethermost fire!"

 

[LoveBeingAMuslimah]

A good Muslim devote his whole life time to obey Allah. A repented bad person can do and enjoy 40 years bad things, but repented for, say 3 years, but would be lifted up to the Paradise and enjoy the same happiness as the good man can. This is unfair. How does the Quran explain this situation?

1.) Simply put, none of us deserve to be there due to our deeds alone. Even the best of all of mankind, the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), will only be admitted into Paradise through the Mercy of Allaah as we're told in a narration. It is His Mercy that will allow both the good devout Muslim who devoted his entire life to worshipping God in a manner that pleases Him and the man who 'only' spent the last 3 years of his life being a devout Muslim to gain entry into Paradise. Both of those people should be grateful to Allaah that they were given Paradise at all.

2.) In the other thread, I posted the narration of the last group of people entering Paradise believing that no one was given what they were given (even though there will be others who didn't touch the fire for a single second). Everyone will be more than ecstatic with what they were blessed with for eternity.

3.) There won't be any ill will or otherwise bad feelings in Jannah. No jealousy or hatred or anything of the like.

4.) There are levels in Paradise and only Allaah knows with certainty who will be in which level.

 

[smaneck]

1.) Simply put, none of us deserve to be there due to our deeds alone.

"And if Allah were to seize mankind for their wrong-doing, He would not leave on it (the earth) a single moving (living) creature" Surah 16:61

 

[juvenissun]

1.) Simply put, none of us deserve to be there due to our deeds alone. Even the best of all of mankind, the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), will only be admitted into Paradise through the Mercy of Allaah as we're told in a narration. It is His Mercy that will allow both the good devout Muslim who devoted his entire life to worshipping God in a manner that pleases Him and the man who 'only' spent the last 3 years of his life being a devout Muslim to gain entry into Paradise. Both of those people should be grateful to Allaah that they were given Paradise at all.

2.) In the other thread, I posted the narration of the last group of people entering Paradise believing that no one was given what they were given (even though there will be others who didn't touch the fire for a single second). Everyone will be more than ecstatic with what they were blessed with for eternity.

3.) There won't be any ill will or otherwise bad feelings in Jannah. No jealousy or hatred or anything of the like.

4.) There are levels in Paradise and only Allaah knows with certainty who will be in which level.

Could you quote me the verses of that (#4) in the Quran? It is important.

 

[juvenissun]

"And if Allah were to seize mankind for their wrong-doing, He would not leave on it (the earth) a single moving (living) creature" Surah 16:61

This is a good verse. It is a different issue, but since you quoted it here, I will use it:

According to that, it simply means: Every human ever lived on the earth is sinful. If so, how do we know if the sin of human is original or not? Does Allah specifically say that man is born without sin?

An associated question: What happened to Adam in the Paradise ? Is Adam an important lesson in Quran?

 

[juvenissun]

‘For men and women who are devoted to Allāh - believing men and women, obedient men and women, truthful men and women, steadfast men and women, humble men and women, charitable men and women, fasting men and women, chaste men and women, men and women who remember Allāh often - Allāh has prepared forgiveness and a rich reward.’

(Al-Ahzab: 35).

As far as the Beloved is concerned devotion to Him; belief in Him; obedience to Him; remembrance of Him all begin with a single act of sincere contrition….and if that single act is all that one has time for - before death comes - then that is enough for Him. It ought to be enough for us simply to rejoice in His mercy.…freely given…..rather than grumble over whom He gives it to, and when.

Not every Muslim has the same strength of faith. But they all go to the Paradise. Are you saying that a Muslim with a very weak faith will enjoy the same level of afterlife as one with a very strong faith? That is really unfair. Nobody will complain in the Paradise. But it is not fair, and is not good.

When you meet Muhammad and others in the Paradise, would he be superior than you? Why? Would you be superior than some other brand new Muslims who did not have much chance to know Allah at the time they died on the earth?

 

[LoveBeingAMuslimah]

"And if Allah were to seize mankind for their wrong-doing, He would not leave on it (the earth) a single moving (living) creature" Surah 16:61

He is, indeed, the Most-Gracious and Most-Merciful in allowing people time to repent.

Could you quote me the verses of that (#4) in the Quran? It is important.

It's not in the Qur'aan. But we know there are levels due to narrations such as this:

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, "Whoever believes in Allaah and His Apostle offers prayers perfectly and fasts (the month of) Ramadan then it is incumbent upon Allaah to admit him into Paradise, whether he emigrates for Allaah's cause or stays in the land where he was born." They (the companions of the Prophet) said, "O Allaah's Messenger! Should we not inform the people of that?" He said, "There are one-hundred degrees in Paradise which Allaah has prepared for those who carry on Jihad in His Cause. The distance between every two degrees is like the distance between the sky and the Earth, so if you ask Allaah for anything, ask Him for the Firdaus, for it is the last part of Paradise and the highest part of Paradise, and at its top there is the Throne of Beneficent, and from it gush forth the rivers of Paradise." [Saheeh al-Bukhaari]

This is a good verse. It is a different issue, but since you quoted it here, I will use it:

According to that, it simply means: Every human ever lived on the earth is sinful.

I believe it means that if mankind were to be held accountable for their sins right now (and the verses preceding it mentioned the sins of killing daughters and disbelieving in the Hereafter), the punishment would destroy all of the inhabitants of the Earth. Allaah knows best.

If so, how do we know if the sin of human is original or not? Does Allah specifically say that man is born without sin?

Whoever is guided is only guided for [the benefit of] his soul. And whoever errs only errs against it. And no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. And never would We punish until We sent a messenger. (Surah al-Israa' 17:15)

Say, "Is it other than Allaah I should desire as a lord while He is the Lord of all things? And every soul earns not [blame] except against itself, and no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. Then to your Lord is your return, and He will inform you concerning that over which you used to differ." (Surah al-Ana'am 6:164)

Or has he not been informed of what was in the scriptures of Moses And [of] Abraham, who fulfilled [his obligations] - That no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another (Surah an-Najm 53:36-38)

If no soul carries the burden of another soul's sins, how can a newborn baby have any sins if it does not yet have the ability to commit them? Furthermore, Islaam teaches us that the Pen is lifted from three (i.e. they're not held accountable for their deeds): the one who has not reached the age of puberty, the mentally handicapped/insane, and the one who is sleeping.

An associated question: What happened to Adam in the Paradise ? Is Adam an important lesson in Quran?

And Adam and his wife ate of it, and their private parts became apparent to them, and they began to fasten over themselves from the leaves of Paradise. And Adam disobeyed his Lord and erred. Then his Lord chose him and turned to him in forgiveness and guided [him]. (Surah Taha 20:121-122)

Their story is indeed an important lesson for us. The greatest lesson (besides knowing that Allaah commands us to what is good while Satan tries to sway us from it and is our enemy) is the lesson of repentance. All Adam and Eve (peace be upon them) had to do was repent sincerely and they were forgiven.

"Adam and Eve made a mistake, they repented sincerely, and God in His infinite wisdom forgave them. Humankind is not doomed to be punished, generation after generation. The sins of the father are not visited upon the sons.....
Above all Islam teaches us that God is the most forgiving, and will go on forgiving, repeatedly. Part of being human is making mistakes. Sometimes the mistakes are made without deliberation or a bad intention, but sometimes we knowingly and deliberately sin and do wrong to others. Therefore as human beings, we are constantly in need of forgiveness."

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/3681/viewall/

 

[lori milne]

A good Muslim devote his whole life time to obey Allah. A repented bad person can do and enjoy 40 years bad things, but repented for, say 3 years, but would be lifted up to the Paradise and enjoy the same happiness as the good man can. This is unfair. How does the Quran explain this situation?

i dont think the Quran leaves out heavenly gifts or rewards so this is the difference maybe

 

[juvenissun]

And Adam and his wife ate of it, and their private parts became apparent to them, and they began to fasten over themselves from the leaves of Paradise. And Adam disobeyed his Lord and erred. Then his Lord chose him and turned to him in forgiveness and guided [him]. (Surah Taha 20:121-122)

Their story is indeed an important lesson for us. The greatest lesson (besides knowing that Allaah commands us to what is good while Satan tries to sway us from it and is our enemy) is the lesson of repentance. All Adam and Eve (peace be upon them) had to do was repent sincerely and they were forgiven.

"Adam and Eve made a mistake, they repented sincerely, and God in His infinite wisdom forgave them. Humankind is not doomed to be punished, generation after generation. The sins of the father are not visited upon the sons.....
Above all Islam teaches us that God is the most forgiving, and will go on forgiving, repeatedly. Part of being human is making mistakes. Sometimes the mistakes are made without deliberation or a bad intention, but sometimes we knowingly and deliberately sin and do wrong to others. Therefore as human beings, we are constantly in need of forgiveness."

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/3681/viewall/

That is certainly a big big difference between Islam and Christianity. It is a happy ending for Adam. But a totally different theology would be the consequence.

 

[juvenissun]

i dont think the Quran leaves out heavenly gifts or rewards so this is the difference maybe

If would be nice if Quran specifies clearly some people would be rewarded MORE THAN others.

 

[Niblo]

If would be nice if Quran specifies clearly some people would be rewarded MORE THAN others.

‘When that which is coming arrives, no one will be able to deny it has come, bringing low and raising high. When the earth is shaken violently and the mountains are ground to powder and turn to scattered dust, then you will be sorted into three classes. Those on the Right - what people they are! Those on the Left - what people they are! And those in front - ahead indeed! For these will be the ones brought nearest to Allāh in Gardens of Bliss: many from the past and a few from later generations.’

(Al-Waqi‘a: 1-14).

Al-Waqi’a (That Which is Coming) is a Meccan sura dealing with the Day of Judgement. On this day people will be divided into three classes: the best of believers (those brought nearest to Allāh-Subḥānahu ūta'āla); those on the right (the ordinary believers); and those on the left (the disbelievers). The best of believers will receive the greatest reward. They are said to include the Messengers, Prophets, martyrs, and those who were foremost in good deeds.

 

[juvenissun]

Whoever is guided is only guided for [the benefit of] his soul. And whoever errs only errs against it. And no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. And never would We punish until We sent a messenger. (Surah al-Israa' 17:15)

Say, "Is it other than Allaah I should desire as a lord while He is the Lord of all things? And every soul earns not [blame] except against itself, and no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. Then to your Lord is your return, and He will inform you concerning that over which you used to differ." (Surah al-Ana'am 6:164)

Or has he not been informed of what was in the scriptures of Moses And [of] Abraham, who fulfilled [his obligations] - That no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another (Surah an-Najm 53:36-38)

If no soul carries the burden of another soul's sins, how can a newborn baby have any sins if it does not yet have the ability to commit them? Furthermore, Islaam teaches us that the Pen is lifted from three (i.e. they're not held accountable for their deeds): the one who has not reached the age of puberty, the mentally handicapped/insane, and the one who is sleeping.

Logically, the highlighted words is not enough to guarantee a sinless baby. A new born could already have sin and the words will still apply. The question is where does the sin of a new born come from. However, this question could also be applied to a person who committed sin at the first time. Where does that sin come from if he did not have sin before?

The purpose of this argument is trying to push you for a more appropriate verse which teaches a sinless baby. This is also related to the origin of sin in the doctrine.

 

[Niblo]

The purpose of this argument is trying to push you for a more appropriate verse which teaches a sinless baby. This is also related to the origin of sin in the doctrine.

Hello,

I hope the Sister will forgive me if I make a contribution:

There is no concept of original sin in Islam; and so it is not possible for a new-born baby to be anything other than sinless.

‘Say: “Should I seek a Lord other than Allāh, when He is the Lord of all things?” Each soul is responsible for its own actions; no soul will bear the burden of another. You will all return to your Lord in the end, and He will tell you the truth about your differences.’

(Al-An‘am:164).

The words: 'Each soul is responsible for its own actions; no soul will bear the burden of another' mean, quite simply, that the guilt of one person (in this context the parent) cannot be passed on, or down, to another (in this context the child). According to the Muslims, this verse finds its counterparts in the Bible:

'Parents may not be put to death for their children, nor children for parents, but each must be put to death for his own crime.’

(Deuteronomy 24:16).

And again:

'Now, you say: "Why doesn't the son bear his father's guilt?" If the son has been law-abiding and upright, has kept all my laws and followed them, most certainly he will live. The one who has sinned is the one who must die; a son is not to bear his father's guilt, nor a father his son's guilt. The upright will be credited with his uprightness, and the wicked with his wickedness.

'If the wicked, however, renounces all the sins he has committed, respects my laws and is law-abiding and upright, he will most certainly live; he will not die. None of the crimes he committed will be remembered against him from then on; he will most certainly live because of his upright actions.

‘Would I take pleasure in the death of the wicked - declares the Lord Yahweh - and not prefer to see him renounce his wickedness and live?’

(Ezekiel: 18: 19-23).

Islam teaches that the lesson from each of the verses I have quoted is clear enough: That Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla), who is Just, will never punish people for the sins of others.

I hope this helps.

 

[juvenissun]

‘When that which is coming arrives, no one will be able to deny it has come, bringing low and raising high. When the earth is shaken violently and the mountains are ground to powder and turn to scattered dust, then you will be sorted into three classes. Those on the Right - what people they are! Those on the Left - what people they are! And those in front - ahead indeed! For these will be the ones brought nearest to Allāh in Gardens of Bliss: many from the past and a few from later generations.’

(Al-Waqi‘a: 1-14).

Al-Waqi’a (That Which is Coming) is a Meccan sura dealing with the Day of Judgement. On this day people will be divided into three classes: the best of believers (those brought nearest to Allāh-Subḥānahu ūta'āla); those on the right (the ordinary believers); and those on the left (the disbelievers). The best of believers will receive the greatest reward. They are said to include the Messengers, Prophets, martyrs, and those who were foremost in good deeds.

How to become a Messenger? (Is he higher than, say, a martyr? I think it is pretty easy to be a martyr, isn't it?)