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Lol you're practically a paragon of virtue Old...
Yeah you guys always say that until someone murders you.
Right. But I'm trying, and making the effort to stop it. I have reasonable success at it, but am not perfect by any means.
Not sure where you detected me finding fault with anything here. I just recognized how a question was loaded with a premise I do not hold. How´s that putting anyone at fault?
When you say
"Morality and math also have this in common: they are external to the mind. We don't invent them, we discover them.", you have mentioned an alternative yourself. So how much more clarification is needed when I say that I don´t buy into this premise?
Chesterton, if you have an axe to grind with me, just PM me. Please don´t use and derail my threads for getting personal things off your chest. Thank you.
Yeah, having been murdered will reliably stop me from saying anything.
What's "justice"...?
I can't tell if this is a joke or what...
People don't do a whole lot of talking after being murdered, so pretty much anything is something someone says "until they're murdered".
But to make a point, I'd bet there's a huge difference in opinions on this site alone on merely the matter of legal abortion being an "injustice" or not....
And since no one would be able to prove their position as they can prove 2+2=4...it would seem that your attempt at a tautology falls a little flat.
Justice, justice, let's see...ah, justice is the seventh month of the calendar year, following eggplant and preceding scuba, named for the Canadian god Larry.
Wait a minute, that can't be right. Darn it! Why do they make these dictionaries so hard to use?
Ah yes...you wouldn't be the first person who has confined his understanding to the literal definition in a dictionary...
How it was applied? I don't understand the question.So try this...
In 1972, prior to the relevant legislation, it was illegal to procure an abortion. People could be sent to jail. In 1974, a year after the legislation, abortions could be procured without penalty.
Please explain how 'justice' was applied here...
How it was applied? I don't understand the question.
My point is that when you suffer injustice, you'll know it, and you'll say it.
Only the baby's opinion ultimately matters. If you could ask the baby how it feels about getting sliced up and sucked into a tube by some stranger, how do you think it'd answer?
Ah, you meant merely "I don´t agree with the premise." Ok.If you reject the premise I assume it's because you find some fault with it.
Generally, I appreciate interest in my opinions.Just trying to get you to share a bit more.
Obviously you do can, and I didn´t say you can´t.Please answer this: why can't I use and derail your thread?
Problem solved itself - I am in a different team now.That reminds me, how are you getting along with your talkative teammate? Find a way to handle it?
...unless when you don´t operate with these concepts (and I really do understand that that´s hard to imagine for you).My point is that when you suffer injustice, you'll know it, and you'll say it.
I don't think anyone "stops lying" in their lifetime...and anyone who believes that they have is probably lying to themselves.
My grandmother used to say, "Ask me no questions, I'll tell you no lies."
Well I'm at a loss again Divide lol...it seems you agree with me that no one ever completely stops lying in their lifetime. It also seems that you believe no liars get into heaven.
Wouldn't those two things make heaven a rather empty place?
It's quite simple. Tell me how the concept of 'justice', as you understand it, was applied in the example I provided. Two identical behaviours, separated only by time, receive two completely different consequences. Is justice taking place here...?
I suppose you could say that I would know my opinion on the matter. It would be similar to the way I know I like vanilla milkshakes, or that I know it's a pretty day outside.
This is far apart from the way I know 2+2=4.
I can ask...but I sincerely doubt an unborn child is capable of forming such opinions. I mean, imagine all you would need to explain...it's an interesting question though. Would you want to be born to a mother, or parents, who didn't want you, for whatever reason? Would you want to be born to a mother who would resent you for the rest of your life? Would you want to be born knowing that you'll be severely mentally andor physically disabled? These are large questions for a baby to weigh...but I can say, with certainty, that there's multiple circumstances in which the answer would be "no"...I would not want to be born.
What's really strange though is that in this particular instance you think it's the baby's opinion which matters....why? If we were talking about a situation where someone broke into someone's house to steal things and the homeowner shoots them (as is legal in many states even when the intruder is unarmed...and let's assume that he is)...is it the intruder's opinion which matters? How about when one nation declares war upon another and invades them...are the people of the invaded nation the one's who's opinions matter?
Please, show your math in reply to these questions...if you answer them the same way you did the abortion question, then your responses end up being entirely subjective.
Ah, you meant merely "I don´t agree with the premise." Ok.
I didn´t criticize it, I didn´t discuss or debate it - I merely pointed out that that´s useful information, in that it shows why I can´t answer questions such as mentioned in the OP.
The way you did it, however, I didn´t feel particularly invited. (Maybe if you reread all your posts in this thread, you get an idea why that is.)
Obviously you do can, and I didn´t say you can´t.
Rather, I asked you kindly to abstain from doing it.
(If, however, you meant to ask why the administration of CF made such a rule - you would have to ask them.)
("OH, HOW I LOVE THE SILENCE IN THE MOUNTAINS!!!!", in a cutting, twangy voice. You get the idea.)
...unless when you don´t operate with these concepts (and I really do understand that that´s hard to imagine for you).
My ex-girlfriend used to say that. I'm not with her anymore, lol. My ex-wife was a compulsive liar. She would lie about the littlest things. Things that don't have to be lied about. I understand where it comes from, a learned mindset that one learns growing up...if you want to keep what you have, usually...lol.
As I grow older, I notice that lying is changing upon the face of it. People will stand there and lie to your face...even when you know better (and they know that), but they'll look you in the eye and lie anyway, and it's like...you are expected to believe them, and if you don't believe them, then you are a troublemaker and an A-hole. Whats'a matter don't you trust me?!
I'm learning to deal with this kind. Loan them money or whatever on the promise, I'll pay you back Friday when I get paid...ok. Friday comes, here comes an idiotic story of why they can't pay you back now. So next Friday, ok. Next Friday, another story, more lies that only an idiot would believe. Press them for the money, you said you'd pay me back Friday...then they get mad at you for stirring up trouble. I just need my money back. Eventually they will pay me back, but it's usually not for a couple months because they like to play the priority card too, well, the wife and kids blah blah blah...ok.
Next time he came over trying to borrow money I said no because you don't pay me back when you say you're going to...Then it's oh no oh no I wanted to pay you back but things happened that wasn't my fault and beyond my control...I felt so bad for not being able to keep my word to you...bla blah blah...
So I said, well I can't let you borrow any more money because you have such bad luck and you prolly wouldn't be ABLE TO pay me back. I feel so bad that I can't loan money to my friend, because he has such bad luck. Checkmate, lol.
Ever heard the expression "the law is an ass"? Anyway, I still don't understand. Are you asking me if I agree with the decision? No, I don't. It was a blatant violation of the 10th Amendment. Wasn't the first, wasn't the last.
That´s why your wording "I found fault" with others´ post inaccurate.Right, you didn't criticize, discuss or debate.
Well, to be precise, you spoke as though I had.I'm just saying I'd like it if you did.
That´s another question which can only be answered on your terms, those of a moral objectivist.Please answer: Was I rude?
Well, I did.Before the question, I requested "Please answer this" and you didn't.
Because I didn´t want my thread derailed.So, why did you ask me to abstain from using and derailing your thread? (Pretend I'm a space alien.)
It appears to be futile to explain when the invitation to explain it comes as a statement of knowledge about how I would react and feel. Sorry, doesn´t look like curiosity to me.Yes, it's hard, which is why I'm curious about it.
Interesting isn't it...?
Here is the person that claims that justice/injustice is such a simple concept that we can easily understand it from a dictionary definition. Yet, this is the third time you have been unable to provide an application of 'justice' to my example...
Well, to be precise, you spoke as though I had.
Your wish is noted, but I would like you to understand that this wasn´t meant to be a debate thread.
That´s another question which can only be answered on your terms, those of a moral objectivist.
I said and say it on my terms: The way you went about it I didn´t feel invited.
Well, I did.
Because I didn´t want my thread derailed.
It appears to be futile to explain when the invitation to explain it comes as a statement of knowledge about how I would react and feel. Sorry, doesn´t look like curiosity to me.
You don't think murder is wrong?
Opinions can change. I used to be a lot more conservative than I am now. There was a time I didn't like asparagus at all, and for some reason now I like it. So maybe someday I could come to approve of unjustified homicide?
Seriously, you'd try to explain? I can see you as a Nazi prison camp guard trying to explain to the Jew on his way to the gas chamber - "Ah, well. It's complicated. Why'd you want to be born in a Germany that didn't want you anyway?" Almost seems like you're adding insult to injury.
Yes of course everyone's opinions matter. Haven't you ever done anything wrong? You knew it was wrong when you did it, or later evaluated it and came to understand it was wrong?
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but you sound like you want it cut and dried, or possibly are wanting it to be something that we can't do so shouldn't try?
You're prolly right in what you said, I have not stopped lying. I have however, stopped myself from lying in a few circumstances. I found a different way to answer that didn't have to be a lie, even though I did not reveal truths that I didn't want to reveal.
You or I may not be able to stop lying completely in this lifetime on earth. But it doesn't mean that we should not try to stop lying. Do not justify lying. Do not embrace lying. It is not a tool to be used.
I believe that it is a dangerous thing for people to justify lying or to hold it in their heart as something that is ok in some circumstances.
Yeah maybe...I can come up with a few situations where I don't think murder is wrong.
Yes, I would explain....since we're talking about a hypothetical situation where some unborn baby can not only comprehend it's existence, but it's death, I feel like it's a safe assumption that it might want to know why it's abortion is being considered.
I'm not sure why that's so uncomfortable for you. Surely you weren't under the impression that every woman shamed out of an abortion...or simply pressured into keeping her baby...ends up being super happy that she kept the baby? Or was it because you considered the options of death before birth and a lifetime of struggling with a severe mental disability...and you realized that you might choose death?
What exactly is your problem with my answer?
I can't say I've ever done something that I thought was wrong...at the time I did it. I've done things that I knew others would consider wrong, and I've changed my mind later about things that I've done and decided I shouldn't have done them...at least not the way I did them.
I don't see what point you're trying to make here though.
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