Baptists and the Virign Mary.

[Wryetui]

"Mother of God" implies superiority over or equality with God. This is a Catholic invention. God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. If you say Mary is the mother of God, then you are saying she is the mother of God the Father as well as the mother of God the Holy Ghost. It's making Mary into an idol before God. It's insane, really. Mary is my sister, God is my Father, and Mary is not my Father's Mother. Why Christians want to believe the Catholic Church when they say Mary is the Mother of God who is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost and not only God the Son, baffles me. It's believing in mysticism which is not logical.

Isn't Mary the Mother of God? Not of God the Father or the Holy Spirit but the Mother of God the Son, didn't Jesus have a mother which took care of Him, fed Him, loved Him in the earth? Are you saying that Jesus wasn't God? He was, and while on earth He had a mother, that's why Mary is called the Mother of God, because He wasn't just thrown here from the skies, He was in Mary's womb. That's why Mary has the title of Theotokos or the Mother of God since the very beginning of christianity, it's not a "catholic invention".

 

[SaintJoeNow]

I guess as long as Catholics can post their teachings the thread is good

 

[SaintJoeNow]

Isn't Mary the Mother of God? Not of God the Father or the Holy Spirit but the Mother of God the Son, didn't Jesus have a mother which took care of Him, fed Him, loved Him in the earth? Are you saying that Jesus wasn't God? He was, and while on earth He had a mother, that's why Mary is called the Mother of God, because He wasn't just thrown here from the skies, He was in Mary's womb. That's why Mary has the title of Theotokos or the Mother of God since the very beginning of christianity, it's not a "catholic invention".

So Mary is the Mother of the lesser God, God the Son, and not the mother of the greater God, God the Father? Is the Holy Ghost the in-between God equal to Mary the Mother of God the Son but not the Mother of God the Father........So the hierarchy of the Godhead is God the Father on top, Mary and the Holy Ghost co-equal, and Jesus the Son on the bottom?

Therefore Mary is the Mother of God but not the Mother of God?

 

[SaintJoeNow]

Why did Jesus in the Bible only call Mary woman, and He never called her "mother"? When He, on the cross, assigned John to care for her, he told John she was his mother but Jesus Himself NEVER called Mary "mother". Why is that?

 

[SaintJoeNow]

And why did Mary offer sin offerings after Jesus was born? Why would Mary do what sinners are supposed to do if she was sinless?

 

[SaintJoeNow]

let's hear all of the Catholic teachings so maybe the Baptists like me will get straightened out.
But I will have to ask a lot of questions because I don't understand Catholism enough to become a Catholic Christian. From what I know about the Popes and Vatican throughout history, it is highly unlikely that I can ever approve of Christians being Catholics and highly unlikely...no, impossible, for me to be a Catholic Christian or a Christian Catholic like so many are today.

 

[Wryetui]

So Mary is the Mother of the lesser God, God the Son, and not the mother of the greater God, God the Father?

Do you accept that Jesus is God? Yes, do you accept that Jesus came on earth? Yes, do you accept that Mary gave birth to Jesus on earth? Then where is the problem? Why isn't Mary the mother of Jesus Who is God?

I'm not iniciating a conversation with neo-protestant sects that have no mariological education or tradition about the Most Holy Virgin Mary that would lead blasphemies against her and this isn't my forum, so everyone who want to know more about the christian tradition, that started since the beginning, on the year 33AD and continues in the Orthodox Church and not in 1609 in Amsterdam with the first baptists can start a private conversation with me.

Also, I would beg you to get more culture and studies and read more, I am not a catholic and not only catholics are with Mary.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

Do you accept that Jesus is God? Yes, do you accept that Jesus came on earth? Yes, do you accept that Mary gave birth to Jesus on earth? Then where is the problem? Why isn't Mary the mother of Jesus Who is God?

I'm not iniciating a conversation with neo-protestant sects that have no mariological education or tradition about the Most Holy Virgin Mary that would lead blasphemies against her and this isn't my forum, so everyone who want to know more about the christian tradition, that started since the beginning, on the year 33AD and continues in the Orthodox Church and not in 1609 in Amsterdam with the first baptists can start a private conversation with me.

Also, I would beg you to get more culture and studies and read more, I am not a catholic and not only catholics are with Mary.

Is this how you answer the question of Mary being the Mother of God by being the Mother of God the Son, but not being the Mother of God by not being the Mother of God the Father? Doesn't this mean that Jesus is the lesser God, and God the Father is the Greater God, and Mary is somewhere in the middle, apparently equal to God the Holy Ghost?, so she is actually God above God the Father and above God the Son?

Don't you see that you are in reality making Mary into God and God thinks it's silly? I know a lot of Christians think Mary is God, but I think it's silly to believe that. Mary was a stinking sinner the same as me, both of us children of Adam who did not exist before our sinful parents conceived us......and I love her as my sister the same as I love my sister who is still living who is also a stinker.

 

[tall73]

let's hear all of the Catholic teachings so maybe the Baptists like me will get straightened out.

Joe, he is not Catholic. He is Eastern Orthodox.

 

[Wryetui]

I would like to see by which mental process you attribute Mary the position of God. My point is clear and simple: If Mary gave birth to Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ is God, that makes Mary the very Mother of God on earth, whether you understand it or not. It has been understood by everyone in the world since the very beginning of christianity, with the dogmas of the Church, of the Fathers and of the Saints, so there is no need for you to come with your aberrations here to tell me I consider Mary God.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

Do you accept that Jesus is God? Yes, do you accept that Jesus came on earth? Yes, do you accept that Mary gave birth to Jesus on earth? Then where is the problem? Why isn't Mary the mother of Jesus Who is God?

I'm not iniciating a conversation with neo-protestant sects that have no mariological education or tradition about the Most Holy Virgin Mary that would lead blasphemies against her and this isn't my forum, so everyone who want to know more about the christian tradition, that started since the beginning, on the year 33AD and continues in the Orthodox Church and not in 1609 in Amsterdam with the first baptists can start a private conversation with me.

Also, I would beg you to get more culture and studies and read more, I am not a catholic and not only catholics are with Mary.

You can be a Christian and be a Catholic if you want to. Constantine said it's good before he went wherever he went.

Try reading "The Two Babylons" by Alexander Hyslop. Your priest will love it. I took some semester long classes in College about the teachings and history of Catholicism. Just because I talk funny does not mean I am uneducated or have not studied history, civilization, and culture.

And I got news for you....John the Baptist was born before Jesus Christ, long before 1609.....and Jesus was baptized by a Baptist, not a Catholic. Sorry, it seems like He's a Baptist.....his disciples baptized people and the numbers compared to baptisms by John the Baptist were a point of contention for a minute of two. I suggest less cultural study and more Bible study.

Also note that early in the Book of Acts, the apostles (including Peter who the Pope says was the Pope) required that the man chosen to replace Judas be a disciple who had been baptized according to John's Baptism. Baptist roots go all the way back to the Garden of Eden where Adam was baptized in the blood of an animal which covered His sin, picturing the blood of Christ which covers mine so my debt is paid in full and my sins are forgiven and Christ in His resurrection is my life and His life is eternal and I have eternal life now as He promised to all who repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. You don't need Mary or any Catholic priest to be a Christian and go to heaven. You can be a Christian and be a Catholic if you want to. I prefer knowing my sins are forgiven because Jesus Christ Himself lives in me by His Holy Spirit, and He is my life and in Him I have eternal life now and WILL NEVER DIE!!!! PRAISE THE LORD!!!

 

[twin1954]

Isn't Mary the Mother of God? Not of God the Father or the Holy Spirit but the Mother of God the Son, didn't Jesus have a mother which took care of Him, fed Him, loved Him in the earth? Are you saying that Jesus wasn't God? He was, and while on earth He had a mother, that's why Mary is called the Mother of God, because He wasn't just thrown here from the skies, He was in Mary's womb. That's why Mary has the title of Theotokos or the Mother of God since the very beginning of christianity, it's not a "catholic invention".

The problem isn't with the logic but with the actual conclusion of it. The practice of the theology is what defines the way it is understood by the masses and it is evident that most don't have or even know the reasons behind the theology. That is why the way it is worded is misleading at the very least. It doesn't matter how old the tradition is if it is wrong or misleading to the common people.

Theology requires precision in the way it is worded in order to be clear. That is why, though I hold to the five points of Calvinism, I dislike the way they are worded. They leave much to be desired in the way that they are often taught and understood. TULIP is misleading so I prefer a different wording in the theology. I never want to mislead folks or not be clear in my teaching.

The problem with the teaching of veneration of Mary is it tends to make folks worship her all the while denying that it does.

And while I am not too familiar with the differences between Roman Catholic teaching and Easter Orthodox teaching, though I do know some, I am familiar with the teaching of the RC and the reasons behind it. I have made it a point to understand it in order to determine where it is in error and where it isn't. I am also familiar with the history.

Mary is not the mother of God she is the mother of the God-man. He is the seed of the woman promised in Gen.3:15. She was the vessel of His humanity but not the Theotokos.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

I would like to see by which mental process you attribute Mary the position of God. My point is clear and simple: If Mary gave birth to Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ is God, that makes Mary the very Mother of God on earth, whether you understand it or not. It has been understood by everyone in the world since the very beginning of christianity, with the dogmas of the Church, of the Fathers and of the Saints, so there is no need for you to come with your aberrations here to tell me I consider Mary God.

So Mary is the Mother of God on Earth but she is not the Mother of God the Father on Earth, only the Mother of God the Son on Earth? Who is she the mother of now that neither her nor Jesus are on Earth? She is the Mother of God the Son in Heaven now, but not the Mother of God the Father in Heaven, making Her the Mother of God while she is not the Mother of God? By what mental process can you logically explain this? It's silly.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

I would like to see by which mental process you attribute Mary the position of God. My point is clear and simple: If Mary gave birth to Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ is God, that makes Mary the very Mother of God on earth, whether you understand it or not. It has been understood by everyone in the world since the very beginning of christianity, with the dogmas of the Church, of the Fathers and of the Saints, so there is no need for you to come with your aberrations here to tell me I consider Mary God.

What is "dogmas" of the church? Is that the dog-mothers? "dog-mas"???? Ma is the Mother, right? so the "dogma" of the church would be the mother dog, right? So the Dog Mother of Catholicism gave birth to God the Mother of God who is not the Father of God and not the Mother of God the Father but is the Mother of God the Son, so it's the Mother of God but not the Mother of God?

If you put all this nonsense together, the only logical conclusion is that you believe Mary is God of Gods. I know a lot of Christians believe this stuff like you do and then deny the silliness of it all when a Baptist Christian like me logically points it out, but I do not know why Christians keep on believing this kind of stuff about Mary. It's nonsense.

 

[Wryetui]

You can be a Christian and be a Catholic if you want to. Constantine said it's good before he went wherever he went.

Try reading "The Two Babylons" by Alexander Hyslop. Your priest will love it. I took some semester long classes in College about the teachings and history of Catholicism. Just because I talk funny does not mean I am uneducated or have not studied history, civilization, and culture.

And I got news for you....John the Baptist was born before Jesus Christ, long before 1609.....and Jesus was baptized by a Baptist, not a Catholic. Sorry, it seems like He's a Baptist.....his disciples baptized people and the numbers compared to baptisms by John the Baptist were a point of contention for a minute of two. I suggest less cultural study and more Bible study.

Also note that early in the Book of Acts, the apostles (including Peter who the Pope says was the Pope) required that the man chosen to replace Judas be a disciple who had been baptized according to John's Baptism. Baptist roots go all the way back to the Garden of Eden where Adam was baptized in the blood of an animal which covered His sin, picturing the blood of Christ which covers mine so my debt is paid in full and my sins are forgiven and Christ in His resurrection is my life and His life is eternal and I have eternal life now as He promised to all who repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. You don't need Mary or any Catholic priest to be a Christian and go to heaven. You can be a Christian and be a Catholic if you want to. I prefer knowing my sins are forgiven because Jesus Christ Himself lives in me by His Holy Spirit, and He is my life and in Him I have eternal life now and WILL NEVER DIE!!!! PRAISE THE LORD!!!

Mary has always been venerated in the Church from the beginning, she was always supra-venerated, not adored, because adoration is only for God, you are not familiar with these teachings, but they are like I tell you.

I don't know if you are blind or you simply don't know what I am talking about or you can't read, but I repeat you that I AM NOT ROMAN-CATHOLIC but I am EASTERN-ORTHODOX so you should learn more about my Church, what we believe and what we are from the beginning, unchanged, because we differ more from the roman-catholics than you. You do not want to understand that Mary is the Mother of God the Son while He was on earth between was, because God wanted so, so you can fight against God's decision and not accept them as much as you want but it will not change, the reality is like it is. John the Baptist was a baptiser but not a baptist, like you and your christian neoprotestant sect. Following your logic, every christian that is baptised and every priest that baptises is a baptist, right? In my Church we are not baptised with the baptism of John, but with the baptism of the Holy Trinity, of the spirit and of the water.

 

[Avid]

As the scriptures say, Mary, the mother of Jesus, was blessed among women, and we regard her so for a number of reasons. That she should intercede for anyone is shown to be error by Jesus Christ our LORD. When other people tried to get her to intercede with Jesus, He would have nothing to do with it. Instead, she told those people, that whatever He commanded them, they should do. It is good advice.

It is then important for you and I to know what Jesus commanded us to do. Maybe you can show anything relating to His mother that Jesus told you to do. This you can do. Quote some scripture that says anything like what you stated above. You can reference scripture without going against the rules, but some of what you said already is questionable.

Only thing I know of at all was that Jesus commanded the youngest of His disciples to care for His mother in His absence, which he did till her death.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Try reading "The Two Babylons" by Alexander Hyslop. Your priest will love it. I took some semester long classes in College about the teachings and history of Catholicism. Just because I talk funny does not mean I am uneducated or have not studied history, civilization, and culture.

The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop (not Hyslop) began as a religious pamphlet published in 1853 with the subtitle, The Papal Worship Proved to Be the Worship of Nimrod and His Wife. This pamphlet was expanded in 1858 and published as a book in 1919, 54 years after the author’s death in 1865.

In this extensively footnoted book, Hislop presents his phony conspiracy theory in which it is falsely believed that the Roman Catholic Church is a continuation of the idolatrous teachings of ancient pagan Babylon. Therefore, the book is a favorite among Jehovah’s Witnesses who love to quote from any book, no matter how inaccurate, to criticize historical Christianity. It is also a favorite among some radicalized Christian Fundamentalists who suffer from the delusion that Roman Catholicism is a pagan religion. However, mainstream Baptists and other Christians have almost unanimously ignored it as maliciously false anti-Catholic propaganda. A few Christian evangelicals, however, have written and published rebuttals to Hislop’s nonsense. One of these evangelicals is Ralph Woodrow:

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/2808-a-profile-in-integrity-ralph-woodrow

http://www.ralphwoodrow.org/books/pages/babylon-connection.html

And I got news for you....John the Baptist was born before Jesus Christ, long before 1609.....and Jesus was baptized by a Baptist, not a Catholic. Sorry, it seems like He's a Baptist.....his disciples baptized people and the numbers compared to baptisms by John the Baptist were a point of contention for a minute of two. I suggest less cultural study and more Bible study.

Also note that early in the Book of Acts, the apostles (including Peter who the Pope says was the Pope) required that the man chosen to replace Judas be a disciple who had been baptized according to John's Baptism. Baptist roots go all the way back to the Garden of Eden where Adam was baptized in the blood of an animal which covered His sin, picturing the blood of Christ which covers mine so my debt is paid in full and my sins are forgiven and Christ in His resurrection is my life and His life is eternal and I have eternal life now as He promised to all who repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. You don't need Mary or any Catholic priest to be a Christian and go to heaven. You can be a Christian and be a Catholic if you want to. I prefer knowing my sins are forgiven because Jesus Christ Himself lives in me by His Holy Spirit, and He is my life and in Him I have eternal life now and WILL NEVER DIE!!!! PRAISE THE LORD!!!

Jehovah’s Witnesses also Baptize people, but they are NOT Baptists. John the Baptist baptized people, but he was not a Baptist Christian—he was a Jew!

 

[Wryetui]

Our teachings ar very different. First of all, you have to understand that I do not consider the Bible as the sole authority, but only among the Holy Tradition of the Church. The Holy Tradition means the teachings that are alive in the Church of Christ (Orthodox) but are not in the Bible because they were not written (how could them? The Bible is not a journal). Mary never died, she was bodily taken to Heaven after her dormition. This isn't written in the Bible because she died after the final writing of the Revelation, so where to put it? But is present on the writings of the Church. I am not a baptist so I will not post here as much as I could because it will lead to senseless slurs and dogmas from people that do not know a little bit of history (as proven with a user) so if anyone want to know he can start a thread in TAW or a conversation with me.

 

[twin1954]

Mary has always been venerated in the Church from the beginning, she was always supra-venerated, not adored, because adoration is only for God, you are not familiar with these teachings, but they are like I tell you.

I don't know if you are blind or you simply don't know what I am talking about or you can't read, but I repeat you that I AM NOT ROMAN-CATHOLIC but I am EASTERN-ORTHODOX so you should learn more about my Church, what we believe and what we are from the beginning, unchanged, because we differ more from the roman-catholics than you. You do not want to understand that Mary is the Mother of God the Son while He was on earth between was, because God wanted so, so you can fight against God's decision and not accept them as much as you want but it will not change, the reality is like it is. John the Baptist was a baptiser but not a baptist, like you and your christian neoprotestant sect. Following your logic, every christian that is baptised and every priest that baptises is a baptist, right? In my Church we are not baptised with the baptism of John, but with the baptism of the Holy Trinity, of the spirit and of the water.

Neither Scripture nor history will bear this out as you claim. Calling us a neoprotestant sect is against the rules. Should I report you or will you follow the rules of the forum? You are not allowed to teach here so quit trying to. While I understand your frustration with Joe don't lump him in with all Baptists and don't allow your frustration to cause you to break the rules.

A question was asked and answered clearly from a Baptist, not Joe, so that should be the end of the story.

 

[twin1954]

The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop (not Hyslop) began as a religious pamphlet published in 1853 with the subtitle, The Papal Worship Proved to Be the Worship of Nimrod and His Wife. This pamphlet was expanded in 1858 and published as a book in 1919, 54 years after the author’s death in 1865.

In this extensively footnoted book, Hislop presents his phony conspiracy theory in which it is falsely believed that the Roman Catholic Church is a continuation of the idolatrous teachings of ancient pagan Babylon. Therefore, the book is a favorite among Jehovah’s Witnesses who love to quote from any book, no matter how inaccurate, to criticize historical Christianity. It is also a favorite among some radicalized Christian Fundamentalists who suffer from the delusion that Roman Catholicism is a pagan religion. However, mainstream Baptists and other Christians have almost unanimously ignored it as maliciously false anti-Catholic propaganda. A few Christian evangelicals, however, have written and published rebuttals to Hislop’s nonsense. One of these evangelicals is Ralph Woodrow:

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/2808-a-profile-in-integrity-ralph-woodrow

http://www.ralphwoodrow.org/books/pages/babylon-connection.html



Jehovah’s Witnesses also Baptize people, but they are NOT Baptists. John the Baptist baptized people, but he was not a Baptist Christian—he was a Jew!

While you are correct in your assessment of the book you are mistaken in the view of Baptists historically concerning the teachings of the RC. Baptists have historically been anti-Catholic. The reasons for this are easily seen in the differences between Baptist doctrine and RC doctrine. The only way to reconcile the two is by complete compromise. A simple study of RC doctrine and practice will bear this out. The RC doctrine of baptismal regeneration, seven sacraments, putting tradition on par with the Scriptures, the poop as the head of the church and many more that I could name make it impossible to fellowship and agree with the RC.