Baptists and the Virign Mary.

[Alithis]

The issue, from my perspective, is the malicious, visceral hated for the Roman Catholic Church and her people on the part of Baptists who are, in my opinion, sinfully ignorant and sinfully unwilling to make a sincere and objective effort to learn the truth.

do not mistake love for the truth as hatred of people . despising a false doctrine is fully possible while still loving fellow man .. but we are not called to fellowship with those who refuse to even admit wrongdoing let alone repent of it .

the wrongs of praying to mary (or falsely claimed through mary ) have been openly presented in this thread and now some insist on ignoring that and instead wish to class people who point out those obvious errors as haters of roman catholics . thats just avoiding the issue by redirecting the topic into false accusation.
personally i am easy able to distinguish between the people and the roman catholics many false doctrines ..i fully resist the doctrines and do not hate the people .
but there is no requirement in the pursuit of Godly unity to compromise the truth .

praying to mary is wrong ,it is faithless and as such it is sinful . The scriptures NEVER instruct us to do it . it is a man made false doctrine . nothing more .

 

[Wryetui]

Your intention and how it is perceived are not the same thing in most cases. While I understand that to you it ought not be an insult because you think it is true it is to those who do not. How would you feel if I called Eastern Orthodox a sect and a cult?

I wouldn't have any problem if it would have been the truth, what's the problem in calling a spade a spade? But it is not truth.

 

[Avid]

... Mary never died, she was bodily taken to Heaven after her dormition...

You will need to provide scripture to prove this, or it is merely false teaching. The LACK of a specific thing does not lead to the conclusion of something that is different than ANYTHING written in scripture.

Also, it had been asked of someone else if they believed Mary, the mother of Jesus, was born of a virgin, as put forth by Roman Catholics. (Immaculate Conception.)

 

[Wryetui]

You will need to provide scripture to prove this, or it is merely false teaching. The LACK of a specific thing does not lead to the conclusion of something that is different than ANYTHING written in scripture.

Also, it had been asked of someone else if they believed Mary, the mother of Jesus, was born of a virgin, as put forth by Roman Catholics. (Immaculate Conception.)

You may be blind or something, but I told you it cannot be in the Scripture if it happened after the writings of the NT. We differ from the roman-catholics, however, we do not believe that Mary was born through Imaculate Conception, but with a normal birth after the long prayers of her parents that they could have a child. The Orthodox Church specifically holds one of two Roman Catholic alternative beliefs, teaching that Mary died a natural death, like any human being; that her soul was received by Christ upon death; and that her body was resurrected on the third day after her repose, at which time she was taken up, bodily only, into heaven when the apostles, miraculously transported from the ends of the earth, found her tomb to be empty, but both sides agree that she was bodily taken to Heaven. You do not get these teachings if you follow Sola Scriptura, because you cut yourself off from the source of the truth if you chop the church into just the Bible, that is a heretical doctrine (to us) which it's fruits are seen: thousands of "christian denominations", however, the Church from the beginning, along with every other church that has apostolic tradition (Roman-Catholic, Eastern-Catholic, Eastern-Orthodox, Oriental-Orthodox), which all existed since the beginning hold the view of Mary being bodily taken to Heaven, and you can see historical beliefs and claims for this here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assumption_of_Mary#History_of_the_belief

You can trust it or not, I prefer to stick with the original teachings of the Church regarding Mary and not to cut myself from the teachings of the Church with the heretical doctrine of "sola scriptura", which makes christianity's baggage of wisdom cut in half and leads to chaos among its followers (again, the thousands of christian denominations). I don't want to start an argument here since it's not my forum, but since you asked me, I had to answer.

 

[Avid]

You may be blind or something, but I told you it cannot be in the Scripture if it happened after the writings of the NT...

But this did NOT happen after the writings of the NT. Mary (if young when Jesus was born, as some claim,) was likely in her mid 50s when Jesus commanded the Apostle John (maybe still in his teens) to care for her. His writings were all of a late date, and he lived past the time of the other disciples. (Maybe as much as 30 years.)

The Apostle Paul was, also, very young in comparison. His writings were as late as most other, older Apostles. Mary may have been in her mid 80s when Paul was beheaded, and Jude wrote his Epistle, if still alive then.

She would have had to be at least 105 or 110 if she lived past the time of John's Third Letter. If you believe Mary died past the age of 120 (even if she was really very young at the time of Jesus' birth,) you may imagine she lived past the time of the writings of John, who would have been old (upper 70s, or early 80s) and very busy doing "elderly care" when exiled to Patmos!!!

If, however, Mary, the mother of Jesus, died at a normal age, she would be GONE before most of the NT writings, including all written after Matthew, Mark, and Paul's letters to the Thessalonians. She would be in or about her 80s if she lived past any of those others.

Matthew 1
18 ¶ Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.
20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Luke 1
26 ¶ And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshdow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.
38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.
​

Here are the scriptures that reference that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was a virgin at the conception and birth of our LORD Jesus, her First Born child. There is no mention of her age. A couple of prominent and attractive women (Mary was likely neither, Isa.53:2) were recently revealed to be virgins in their mid to upper twenties (more worldly people than Mary was.) Using THAT, one could add as much as ten years (or more) to my calculations of her age.

 

[Avid]

"... Mary was conceived immaculate, the Catholic Church teaches that from the very moment of her conception, the Blessed Virgin Mary was free from all stain of original sin."​

https://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya2.htm

My understanding of this needed some research, but this cannot be other than what I had stated before, because it is by the lineage of the father that the sin of Adam, the sin nature of the human, is passed to every person born into this world. It was because Jesus did NOT have an earthly father that He did not have a sin nature.

This is inescapable for anyone trying to prove these things about Mary, the mother of Jesus.

 

[tall73]

Yes, that is correct. I believe whole-heartedly in the Baptist view—even though it is based upon Baptist tradition and experience rather than upon the Scriptures. Peter was correct at the time that he taught, but….

Alright, so what portion of the Catholic Baptism do you find more scriptural?

 

[baptist4life]

PrincetonGuy, you said (claim) you have been a Baptist for 12 years. I have been a Baptist for 63 years. Baptists DO NOT believe the things you claim. Baptists have NADA, ZERO, ZILCH, in common with Roman Catholics. For you to even claim so is ridiculous. I have numerous (in the dozens) RC relatives, I married a Christian lady from a very large Roman Catholic family, and I know what RC's believe also. We've been married 33 years, and in that time I've had many discussions with them and even attended RC "mass" with them many times. I walked out of a funeral once because the priest was making an "offering" for the dead person, and not only for her, but for ALL the other people in my wife's family who had already been dead for YEARS. He prayed that this "offering' would be enough for God to accept them into Heaven, as if Christ's FINISHED work on the Cross was nothing! The Holy Spirit wouldn't let me sit and listen to that blasphemy anymore, and I had to get up and leave. I've many conversations where I questioned them about just what the RC's believe. My wife (at 29 years of age) told me she had attended the RC church since birth, and had NEVER heard the Gospel! Not once! She was wonderfully saved when she was 29 years old, and immediately LEFT the RC church. Her family members, when she told them that she had been saved, asked "saved from what?" I LOVE them all, they are wonderful people, but the RCC and Baptists are about as far apart as you can get doctrinally!! I call "hogwash" to your posts! And I'll repeat............call yourself whatever you want, but "Baptist" you are not. From reading your posts, I don't believe that you are even sure "what" you are.

 

[Avid]

As Baptists, we revere the person of Mary, the mother of Jesus, in much the same way we revere the person of Joseph, her husband. Their protection and nurturing of the Man, Christ Jesus, in His vulnerable years, is of a great significance. However, as Baptists, our reverence of these people ends there, as does our reverence for John the Baptist, our LORD's cousin, and forerunner. These people have our high regard, and they earned that by their exemplary lives, in the time before the story we see in scripture, and the way they conducted themselves as pertains to our LORD while He lived here among us.

We do not, however, share the erroneous view that is held by so many others:

Richard of St. Laurence states "there is not such powerful help in any name, nor is there any other name given to men, after that of Jesus, from which so much salvation is poured forth upon men as from the name of Mary." He continues, "that the devout invocation of this sweet and holy name leads to the acquisition of superabundant graces in this life, and a very high degree of glory in the next."

http://www.themostholyrosary.com/appendix8.htm​

We cannot see anything in scripture that hints to this type of thing at all. The scriptures concerning the reverence we have toward our LORD Jesus Christ are taken, and applied to a dead person. At that point, something is said to put Jesus higher than Mary, His mother, but these things were already attributed to her before saying that. They are considered, then, as Co-Redeemers, and Co-Intercessors. (I have read those things in RC literature over the last few decades.)

I revere the persons of saints who have gone before us. I mention them as examples of living right, and trusting the LORD. John Bunyan, and MANY others have suffered in this life because of their testimony of our LORD Jesus Christ. I buy books, and suggest others read them as well. I do not, however, pray to these dead people, regardless of how highly I esteem them for the life they lived and testimony they bore while they lived here.

The Help given me by John Bunyan was exercised by him more than 300 years earlier, and was put in writing for me to read. As I read those things, I saw that there was someone who endured things I did, and suffered greatly for preaching to help souls like me. The most I ever said in prayer, as relates to John Bunyan, was that the LORD had mercy on him, so maybe, He will have mercy on me, too.

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT

This thread is closed. There is a significant amount of flaming or Catholics, Baptists, each other on the thread, accusations of sinfull ignorance, blindness, etc.
AND there is debate against Baptist belief which is not allowed in the Baptist forum.

So it is staying closed. There may be a clean up