Baptists and "once saved, always saved"

[DeaconDean]

Once Saved, Always Saved
But is it Biblical?

Not very many doctrines receive as much debate as this one does. Many adhere to it, others do not. There are a few others that will provoke debates even among long time Christians. The Rapture, Millennialism (pre, post, and al) just to mane a few. As for me, I believe in the doctrine of Once Saved, Always Saved. I was taught this from an early age in church. And for many years I just accepted it as true. You know, what you learn at an early age tends to stick with you through life. I started seminary school and a whole new world opened up to me. I’ve got a thirst for knowledge that seems to be unquenchable. I began to research, to investigate, to seek enlightenment, regarding church doctrines and what we come to accept and believe. I have read some of the early church doctrines and early versions of Systematic Theology. I wanted to why we believe what we believe. I have studied such authors as: John Gill’s “Body of Practical Divinity,” The Complete Works of Jonathan Edwards, “Theology Proper” by Charles Hodge, “Institutes of Christian Religion” by John Calvin, “Abstract of Systematic Theology” by James Petigru Boyce, “Manual of Theology” by John L. Dagg, “Introduction to Christian Doctrine” by Millard Erickson, The Complete works of Arthur W. Pink. And just to balance things out, I’ve even read Charles Finney's 1851 Lectures on Systematic Theology, and the Theology of Karl Barth, along with The Works of James Arminius.

You see, I felt a need to see how theology has developed from the earliest days, up to the present time. I have even studied a lot of Augustine’s writings. While I do not agree with all of Augustine’s writings, I have been able to pick bits and pieces of useful information from him, he does have his good points. I have studied some of the Confessions of Faith, and in my humble opinion, The Westminster Confession of Faith of 1647 to 1649 and The Baptist Faith and Message of 1963 are the best ones. But that’s neither here nor there. Before I get into this subject, I wanted to see how this idea developed. So I went and did research and some serious studying on the subject, I wanted to make sure that what I propose is right and biblical. I studied a lot of scripture while doing this, and decided on one single passage which I believe supports my position.

Before we dive in, I feel you should know at least some other views on this subject and their position:


Classic Arminianism: One must persevere in faith to be saved.; True believers can lose their faith.; Those dying without faith in Christ are condemned.; The believer who loses his faith is damned.

Antinomianism: One need not persevere in faith to be saved.; True believers can lose their faith.; Those who lose their faith are saved because they once believed.; The believer who loses his faith is saved.

Classic Calvinism: One must persevere in faith to be saved.; True believers cannot lose their faith, since it is God’s gift.; Those dying without faith in Christ are condemned.; Those who lose their faith never had it to begin with.; God will preserve true believers and they will be saved.

Now lets look at the above table for just a minute. Arminians are right when they say the Bible teaches that only those who persevere will be saved, and they’re right in accusing Antinomians of easy-believism and cheap grace. Antinomians (they wouldn’t use the term) are right in telling committed believers that they are secure in Christ and “once saved, always saved.” But where both of these views are wrong, is in assuming that a true believer can lose his faith and fall away from Christ. Faith is “a gift of God—not by works, lest any man boast.” Paul was confident that, since Christ had begun a good work in believers, He would continue that work until completion (Phil. 1). John said that those who fell away were never really true Christians, since true believers don't leave the faith (1 John 2:19).

Scripture teaches that believers must persevere until the end, but also that believers will persevere until the end by God's grace. Christians might temporarily yield to Satan's temptations, even to excess, but like Peter when he denied Christ three times, God will still restore and preserve the faith of the Christian, a faith which God gave in the first place! Peter went on to do great things for the Lord! It is my opinion that the classical Calvinist model takes into account all of the biblical data.

One argument against this used by the Arminians is: “But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.” Eze. 18:24. John Gill gives this answer:

“Such a sense of the words is contrary to the scope and design of the whole chapter, which not at all concerns the perseverance or apostasy of saints, and neither their salvation nor damnation; but the sole view of it is to vindicate the justice of God, from a charge of punishing the Jews, not for their own sins, but the sins of their fathers, and of injustice and inequality in his providential dealings with them, and has nothing to do with the spiritual and eternal affairs of men.”1

The whole context wholly and solely regards the house of Israel, and the land of Israel, and the conduct of the people of Israel in it. In applying that to the saints in particular, which relates to the Jewish church and nation only, as distinguishable from all other people, and so stands self-condemned. Millions of instances of this kind will never enervate the doctrine of the saints perseverance; let it be proved if it can, that any one that has been made righteous by the obedience of Christ, and has been truly and inwardly sanctified by the Spirit and grace of God, ever so fell away, as everlastingly to perish; let this be proved and we have done: As for a man’s own righteousness and outward acts of holiness, we allow a man may turn from them and he lost, but not from the righteousness of Christ, which is everlasting, nor from an inward principle of grace and holiness, which ever abides.

Another argument is: "one who is endued with the faith that purifies the heart, that produces a good conscience, may nevertheless so fall from God, as to perish everlastingly." In proof of which is produced, 1 Timothy 1:19, 20, holding faith and a good conscience, which some having put away, concerning faith have made shipwreck, of whom is Hymeneus and Alexander. It does not appear that these men ever had their hearts purified by faith; this should be first proved, before they are produced as instances of the apostasy of real saints; the contrary appears in their characters; they were ungodly men, and were never otherwise for any thing that is said of them; and after their profession of religion, they increased and proceeded to more ungodliness; they were vain-babblers, opposers of the doctrines of the gospel, and blasphemers of it, and were never upon the foundation that stands sure, or were known by the Lord as his, (see 1 Tim 1:20 and 2 Tim. 2:16, 19; 4:14, 15).2

Arthur W. Pink says: “This terrible sin is not committed by a mere professor, for he has nothing to fall away from, save an empty name.”3

Nor is it clear from the text, that they ever had a good conscience, but rather that they never had one; putting it away does not necessarily suppose they had it, but rather that they had it not, they rejecting it with dislike; as the Jews who never had the gospel are said to put it away; when they contradicted, blasphemed and rejected it, the apostle says, ye put it from you, απωθεισθε,the same word that is here used; ye rejected it, cast it from you, and would not receive it, so here; had these persons ever had a good conscience, it would rather have been said, which some having put out of them; but they never had it; when it was proposed to them, as the Christian religion proposes that a man should exercise a good conscience, they disliked it, and put it away, and would not attend to it, and chose rather to drop the faith they professed, as being contrary to their evil consciences and practices; besides, persons may have a good conscience in some sense, and as it is shews itself by an external behavior among men, which does not arise from an heart purified by faith; the apostle had such an one before he had faith in Christ, Acts23:1. though it does not seem as if these men had ever such an one.

The faith they made shipwreck of, is not the grace of faith, which it does not appear they ever had, but the doctrine of faith, the Gospel; περι τηv πιστεωv , concerning the faith, is a phrase that is never used but of the doctrine of faith, see Acts. 24:24; 1 Timothy 6:21; 2 Timothy 3:8. This is the faith they made shipwreck of, denied and destroyed, or contradicted and blasphemed, as it is explained in the next verse; and the particular doctrine of faith they made shipwreck of. Men may profess the doctrine of faith and fall from it; but this is no instance of a man’s having true faith which purifies the heart, and falling from God so as to perish.

Another objection is: “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.” (Heb. 6:4-6) John Gill says:

“There is nothing in the characters of these persons which shew them to be true believers;there is nothing said of their believing in Christ, or that necessarily implies it; there is nothing said that is peculiar to true believers; they are not said to be regenerated by the Spirit of God, called by the grace of God, or sanctified, or justified, or adopted, or heirs of God, and meet for the inheritance, or sealed by the Holy Ghost, or any thing of that kind.”4

The following section is taken from Arthur W. Pink’s Exposition of Hebrews:

“Apostasy from Christ was a step more easy and natural to a Jewish than to a Gentile believer, because the way was always open and inviting them, as men, to return to those associations which once carried with them the outward sanctification of Jehovah’s name, and which only the power of grace had enabled them to renounce. When heavenly realities became inoperative in their souls, the visible image was before them still, and here was the danger of their giving it the homage of their souls. If there were not an habitual exercise of their spiritual senses, the power of discernment could not remain: they would call evil good, and good evil. The ignorance which springs from spiritual neglect begins its own punishment of apathetic dullness on the once clear mind, and robs the spirit of its power to detect the wily methods of the Devil. It is in the presence of God alone that the Christian can exert his spiritual energies with effect. Abiding in Christ, maintains us in that presence. A more unhappy error cannot befall a believer than to separate, in the habit of his mind, acquired knowledge from the living Christ. Faith dies at once when separated from its object. Knowledge indeed is precious, but the knowledge of God is a progressive thing (Col. 1:10), whose end is not obtained this side of the glory (1 Cor. 8:2).”5

Continued...

 

[DeaconDean]

A clear and growing faith, in heavenly things was needed to preserve Jewish Christians from relapse. To return to Judaism was to give up Christ, who had left their house ‘desolate’ (Matthew 23:38). It should be pointed out, however, that it is just as easy, and the attraction is just as real, for a Gentile Christian to return to that world out of which the Lord has called him, as it was for a Jewish Christian to go back again to Judaism.

In verse 4, “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened" the apostle continues the digression which he began at Hebrews 5:11. The parenthesis has two divisions: the first, Hebrews 5:11-14 is reprehensible; the second, Hebrews 6:1-20 is hortatory. In chapter 6 he exhorts the Hebrews unto two duties: to progress in the Christian course (verses 1-11); to persevere therein (verses 12-20). The first exhortation is proposed in verses 1,2 and qualified in verse 3. The motive to obedience is drawn from the danger of apostasy (verses 4-6). The opening "For" of verse 4 intimates the close connection of our present passage with that which immediately precedes. It draws a conclusion from what the apostle had been saying in Hebrews 5:11-14. It amplifies the "if" in verse 3. It points a most solemn warning against their continuance in their present sloth.

Three things claim our careful attention in coming closer to our passage: the persons here spoken of, the sin they commit, the doom pronounced upon them. In considering the persons spoken of it is of first importance to note that the apostle does not say, "us who were once enlightened", nor even "you", instead, he says "those". In sharp contrast from them, he says to the Hebrews, "Beloved, we are persuaded better things of you".

It is scarcely accurate to designate as "mere professors" those described in verses 4,5. They were a class who had enjoyed great privileges, beyond any such as now accompany the preaching of the Gospel. Those here portrayed are said to have had five advantages, which is in contrast from the six things enumerated in verses 1, 2, which things belong to man in the flesh, under Judaism. Five is the number of grace, and the blessings here mentioned pertain to the Christian dispensation. Yet were they not true Christians. This is evident from what is not said. Observe, they were not spoken of as God’s elect, as those for whom Christ died, as those who were born of the Spirit. They are not said to be justified, forgiven, accepted in the Beloved. Nor is anything said of their faith, love, or obedience. Yet these are the very things which distinguish a real child of God. First, they had been "enlightened". The Sun of righteousness had shone with healing in His wings, and, as Matthew 4:16 says, "The people which sat in darkness saw great light, and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up". Unlike the heathen, whom Christ, in the days of His flesh, visited not, those who came under the sound of His voice were wondrously and gloriously illumined.

The Hebrews had accepted the gospel of the once crucified and now glorified Redeemer, who sent down from heaven the Spirit, a sign of His exaltation, and a pledge of the future inheritance. Having thus entered into the sphere of new covenant manifestation, any one who willfully abandoned it could only relapse into that phase of Judaism which crucified the Lord Jesus. There was no other alternative for them, but either to go on to the full knowledge of the heavenly priesthood of Christ, and to the believer’s acceptance and worship through the Mediator in the sanctuary above, or fall back into the attitude, not of the godly Israelites before Pentecost, such as John the Baptist and those who waited for the promised redemption, nor even into the condition of those for whom the Savior prayed, ‘for they know not what they do’; but into a state of willful conscious enmity against Christ, and the sin of rejecting Him, and putting Him to an open shame" (Adolph Sophir)

Now I don’t believe that a true believer can fall into apostasy either. The stress is on “true believers.” And the people spoken of in Hebrews 6:4-6 were not true believers.

First, the Greek word for "enlightened" here signifies "to give light or knowledge by teaching". It is so rendered by the Septuagint in Judges 13:8, 2 Kings 12:2, 17:27. The apostle Paul uses it for "to make manifest", or "bring to light" in 1 Corinthians 4:5, 2 Timothy 1:10. Satan blinds the minds of those who believe not, lest "the light of the gospel should shine unto them" (2 Cor. 4:4), that is, give the knowledge of it. Thus, "enlightened" here means to be instructed in the doctrine of the gospel, so as to have a clear apprehension of it. In the parallel passage in Hebrews 10:26 the same people are said to have "received the knowledge of the truth", cf. also 2 Peter 2:20, 21. It is, however, only a natural knowledge of spiritual things, such as is acquired by outward hearing or reading; just as one may be enlightened by taking up the special study of one of the sciences. It falls far short of that spiritual enlightenment which transforms (2 Cor. 3:18). An illustration of a unregenerate person being "enlightened", as here, is found in the case of Balaam; Numbers 24:4.

Second, they had "tasted" of the heavenly gift. To "taste" is to have a personal experience of, in contrast from mere report. "Tasting does not include eating, much less digesting and turning into nourishment what is so tasted; for its nature being only thereby discerned it may be refused, yea, though we like its relish and savor, on some other consideration. The persons here described, then, are those who have to a certain degree understood and relished the revelation of mercy; like the stony-ground hearers they have received the Word with a transcient joy" (John Owen). The "tasting" is in contrast from the "eating" of John 6:50-56. Those here in view had had an acquaintance with the Gospel, as to gain such a measure of its blessedness as to greatly aggravate their sin and doom. An illustration of this is found in Matthew 13:20, 21.

Third, they were "made partakers of the Holy Spirit". First, it should be pointed out that the Greek word for "partakers" here is a different one from that used in Colossians 1:12 and 2 Peter 1:4, where real Christians are in view. The word here simply means "companions", referring to what is external rather than internal. These apostates had never been "born of the Spirit" (John 3:6), still less were their bodies His "temples" (1 Cor. 6:19). Nor do we believe this verse teaches that the Holy Spirit had, at any time, wrought within them, otherwise Philippians 1:6 would be contravened. It means that they had shared in the benefit of His supernatural operations and manifestations: "The place was shaken" (Acts 4:31) illustrates.

Fourth, "And have tasted the good Word of God". "I understand by this expression the promise of God respecting the Messiah, the sum and substance of all. It deserves notice that this promise is by way of eminence termed by Jeremiah ‘that good word’ (Jer. 33:14). To ‘taste’, then, this ‘good Word of God’, is to experience that God has been faithful to His promise. They could not say with Jeremiah, "Thy words were found and I did eat them" (Jer. 15:16). "Itis as though he said, I speak not of those who have received nourishment; but of such as have so far tasted it, as that they ought to have desired it as ‘sincere milk’ and grown thereby" (Dr. John Owen). A solemn example of one who merely "tasted" the good Word of God is found in Mark 6:20: "for Herod feared John, knowing that he was a just man and an holy, and observed him; and when he heard him, he did many things, and heard him gladly".

Fifth, "And the powers of the world to come," or "ageto come." The reference here is to the new dispensation which was to be ushered in by Israel’s Messiah according to Old Testament predictions. It corresponds with "these last days" of Hebrews 1:2, and is in contrast from the "time past" or Mosaic economy. These "powers" of the new Age are mentioned in Hebrews 2:4, to our comments on which we would refer the reader. Of these mighty "powers" these apostates had "tasted",or had an experience of. They had been personal witnesses of the miracles of Christ, and also of the wonders that followed His ascension, when such glorious manifestations of the Spirit were given. Thus they were "without excuse". Convincing and conclusive evidence had been set before them, but there had been no answering faith in their hearts. A solemn example of this is found in John 11:47, 48. The class here described are such as had had their minds enlightened, their consciences stirred, their affections moved to a considerable degree, and yet who were never brought from death unto life. Nor is it backsliding Christians who are in view. It is not simply "fall into sin",this or that sin. The greatest "sin" which a regenerated man can possibly commit is the personal denial of Christ: Peter was guilty of this, yet was he "renewed again unto repentance". It is the total renunciation of all the distinguishing truths and principles of Christianity, and this not secretly, but openly, which constitutes apostasy.
By ‘falling away’, we are plainly to understand what is commonly called apostasy. This does not consist in an occasional falling into actual sin, however gross and aggravated; nor in the renunciation of some of the principles of Christianity, even though those should be of considerable importance; but in an open, total, determined renunciation of all the constituent principles of Christianity, and a return to a false religion, such as that of unbelieving Jews or heathens, or to open infidelity and open godlessness" (Dr. J. Brown).

"If they shall fall away". "This is scarcely a fair translation. It has been said that the apostle did not here assert that such persons did or do ‘fall away’; but that if they did—a supposition which, however, could never be realized—then the consequence would be they could not be ‘renewed again unto repentance’. The words literally rendered are, ‘And have fallen away’, or, ‘yet have fallen’.

Taking the passage as a whole, it needs to be remembered that all who had professed to receive the Gospel were not born of God: the parable of the Sower shows that. Intelligence might be informed, conscience searched, natural affections stirred, and yet there be "no root" in them. All is not gold that glitters. There has always been a "mixt multitude" (Ex. 12:38) who accompany the people of God. Moreover, there is in the real Christian the old heart, which is "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked", and therefore is he in constant need of faithful warning. Such, God has given in every dispensation: Genesis 2:17; Leviticus 26:15, 16; Matthew 3:8; Romans 11:21; 1 Corinthians 10:12.

Continued...

 

[DeaconDean]

Finally, let it be said that while Scripture speaks plainly and positively of the perseverance of the saints, yet it is a perseverance of saints, not unregenerate professors. Divine preservation is not only in a safe state, but also in a holy course of disposition and conduct. We are "kept by the power of God through faith". We are kept by the Spirit working in us a spirit of entire dependency, renouncing our own wisdom and strength. The only place from which we cannot fall is one down in the dust. It is there the Lord brings His own people, weaning them from all confidence in the flesh, and giving them to experience that it is when they are weak they are strong. Such, and such only, are saved and safe forever.

Now to the passage in question.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Pelagius held a man-centered concept of salvation in which grace was unnecessary and man's heart was not affected by Adam's fall into sin. Augustine set forth the biblical teaching that Adam's sin was imputed to the race, that man did not have the moral ability to respond to Christ apart from the grace of God and, therefore, God was the initiator of salvation. Coupled with the idea that salvation was of the Lord was also the implication that God would carry out his plan and purpose in the life of each recipient of divine grace. Shortly after the time of Augustine, the Church moved away from his position and embraced a semi-pelagian concept in which man possessed an autonomous will that had the moral power to choose the gospel in and of itself. This laid the foundation for many of the Roman Catholic concepts of man contributing to his salvation through earning merit before God. Semi-Pelagianism focused on the power of man to choose the good; to make right moral decisions, and ultimately be able to choose Christ. This position denies the fact that Scripture teaches that man is dead in sin (Eph. 2:1-3; Col. 2:13); that no one is righteous, understands, or seeks for God (Rom. 3:9-12); that man is hostile to the law of God and is incapable of submitting to it (Rom. 8:7); that no one can come to Christ unless the Father draws him (John 6:44, 63-65); and that regeneration must precede faith (Eph. 2:1-5; John 3:1-10; John 1:12,13; 1 John 5:1). Semi-Pelagianism, in giving great power to man, also gives man the power to receive and reject salvation repeatedly. A person's salvation ultimately lies in the whims of that person's will. This is the background to the debate of whether or not a Christian can lose his salvation. The Augustinian position and later the position of the Reformers in the sixteenth century was that if a person is truly regenerate, God will protect and sustain that person so that he will persevere unto the end and be saved.

Many people who approach the Christian life in an antinomian (lawless) way and excuse their sin by saying, "It doesn't matter what I do, because I can't lose my salvation." That is a distortion, not only of grace, but also of the concept of salvation itself. Many of the arguments I have heard against the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints stem from understanding the doctrine in this way. Paul goes to great lengths in Romans 6 to demonstrate that if a person is truly in Christ, he cannot sin in order that grace might abound. Union with Christ presupposes a new heart that desires to obey God.

"For I am confident of this very thing, that he who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." (Phil.1:6) In John 6:37-40, Jesus states that all who the Father gives to him will come to him and the ones who come will not be cast out. Verses 39 and 40 say, "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that he has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I myself will raise him up on the last day." Jesus promises eternal life to those who believe and he immediately connects the giving of eternal life to the resurrection; those who come to him will be raised up on the last day (see also: John 5:24; 6:44). Just as Philippians 1:6 says that God will perfect the work which he began to the day of Christ Jesus, so also Jesus ties coming to him and receiving eternal life with the idea of a future resurrection. Receiving eternal life is concomitant with being raised on the last day. The two ideas cannot be separated. Eternal life is not eternal if it can be lost in the morning and regained in the evening only to be lost again at some future date; it is not eternal if it lasts only five days or five years. When Jesus promises eternal life and connects the receiving of eternal life with a future resurrection, he is teaching that the true believer is eternally saved.

This same idea is reiterated in John 10:27-29: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand." Again, Jesus states that he gives his sheep eternal life and emphasizes this by the statement that no one is able to snatch them out of either his or his Father's hand. Concerning this passage, some contend that although others cannot snatch a man out of God's hand, the man himself is free to do so. However, the verse states that no one can do this. That is a universal negative which certainly includes the man himself. The passage does not qualify the "no one" by saying that the regenerate man himself may make himself unregenerate and translate himself from the kingdom of God back into the kingdom and family of the devil. Another attempt to discount this passage argues that Satan can snatch a man out of the hand of God. This passage blatantly contends that the Father is greater than all and no one can snatch them out of his hand. That certainly includes the devil and man. This passage also demonstrates that the perseverance of the saints is actually a preservation by their Savior; their coming (being drawn by the Father) and their perseverance are grounded on God and not man (see: John 6:53,63-65).

If you believe in the sovereignty of God, that He is omnipotent, all powerful, then how can you disagree with the above passage? If man can take himself out of the Father’s hand, then in effect, that makes man more powerful than God! And this is not so. God sits on high, and rules all facets of my life, my world and is the only God.

The predominant teaching of Scripture is that the believer is eternally saved. The rejection of this position means that assurance of salvation is impossible. The most anyone could say is that at a present moment in their life they are in a state of grace, but they could not express assurance toward ultimate salvation; they could not say that they knew they were going to heaven because the possibility of falling from that state of grace sometime in their life exists. Those who hold that the true Christian can lose his salvation find themselves in disharmony with a preponderance of Scriptural evidence.

1 Final Perseverance, Asserted and Vindicated, John Gill

2 Ibid

3 Arthur W. Pink, An Exposition of Hebrews, Chapter 24: Apostasy

4 Final Perseverance, Asserted and Vindicated, John Gill

5 Arthur W. Pink, An Exposition of Hebrews, Chapter 24: Apostasy

This, and the last two posts have been posted numerous times since 2005 by me.

Reference: http://www.christianforums.com/threads/once-saved-always-saved.7663118/#post-60701681

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/once-saved-always-saved.7663118/#post-60701684

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/once-saved-always-saved.7663118/#post-60701685

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[FaithfulPilgrim]

Some Baptists teach it while others don't.

From my limited experience outside the United States and discussions with Baptists in other countries, it seems OSAS is not as prevalent a teaching as it is here in the U.S.

The Southern Baptists believe in OSAS in the sense that the believer is regenerated and becomes a new creation and he is "always saved" in that the Holy Spirit resides within him and will prevent him from apostasy. Because of the Spirit, the believer walks in Christ and produces good works.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Some Baptists teach it while others don't.

From my limited experience outside the United States and discussions with Baptists in other countries, it seems OSAS is not as prevalent a teaching as it is here in the U.S.

The Southern Baptists believe in OSAS in the sense that the believer is regenerated and becomes a new creation and he is "always saved" in that the Holy Spirit resides within him and will prevent him from apostasy. Because of the Spirit, the believer walks in Christ and produces good works.

Thats exactly what I thought

 

[twin1954]

You said the secret word and win the prize.

What is sometimes known - and often scorned - as "The sinner's prayer" is NOT a magic spell to get God to like one or redeem one. (Some religions have magic spells for various things, Christianity - even Baptists - do not.) The rough outline of the 'sinner's prayer' is the outline of what is involved in the oral contract involving Salvation. Yes, I said contract.

A contract is a legally binding agreement between two or more parties. A contract specifies the conditions and obligations of all parties. A contract is either written or oral, but requires the two or more parties to willingly agree to the stipulations. Of note, a 'covenant' is another (somewhat obsolete) word (in English) for contract. The word 'testament' when used in the context of the Bible has the same meaning. (It has changed a bit since the translation of the Wycliffe and subsequent King James translations.)

The 'contract' of Salvation specifies - at minimum -
1. the sinner to repent of sin and pledge allegiance and loyalty to God.
2. God will remove the penalty of eternal death from the sinner - transferring that 'obligation' to Jesus, and
3. God will remake the sinner into what the sinner should have been had sin never affected the sinner.

If both parties agree freely to the conditions, the contract of Salvation is made. God obviously agreed already and continues to agree. The sinner in question must do so also. That makes a contract, and that occasions Salvation.

For those who don't like the term 'contract', too bad. That's the deal.

Once again, a mere reciting of a script without intentional and willing consent or intent is NOT effective.

Correct also. The one forgiven much loves much. As described in the gospel accounts of the woman of ill repute who washed Jesus's feet at the Pharisee's house in Luke 7.

The "contract isn't made with sinners it was made with Christ before the world began. 1Tim. 1:9

God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit covenanted together to save a chosen people from the race of fallen Adam in order to show the glory of God in sovereign mercy in the face of Jesus Christ. 2Cor. 4:6; Col.1:14-22, Ex. 33: 18-19

The Lord Jesus Christ became our Surety in that Covenant of Grace and all who are in Him are saved. Heb. 7:22

That is why Jesus could say that all that the Father had given Him will come to Him and that He would give them eternal life and raise them up at the last day. John 6:39-40

That is why He could pray as He did in John 17:3

(Joh 17:1) These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

(Joh 17:2) As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

(Joh 17:3) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

(Joh 17:4) I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

(Joh 17:5) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

(Joh 17:6) I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

The "contract isn't made with sinners it was made with Christ before the world began.

Neither you or I were here before the world began, twin.

My post was talking about a sinner's contact and 'dealing' with Jesus. Not about the plans God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) made prior to this whole mess to provide redemption and salvation. (Mentioned in 2nd Timothy 1:9.)

Or do you believe the covenant mentioned in Second (2nd) Timothy 1:9, (not 1Tim. 1:9) is a 'universal' salvation for all people relieving mankind from repentance and application?

 

[farout]

Finally, let it be said that while Scripture speaks plainly and positively of the perseverance of the saints, yet it is a perseverance of saints, not unregenerate professors. Divine preservation is not only in a safe state, but also in a holy course of disposition and conduct. We are "kept by the power of God through faith". We are kept by the Spirit working in us a spirit of entire dependency, renouncing our own wisdom and strength. The only place from which we cannot fall is one down in the dust. It is there the Lord brings His own people, weaning them from all confidence in the flesh, and giving them to experience that it is when they are weak they are strong. Such, and such only, are saved and safe forever.

Now to the passage in question.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Pelagius held a man-centered concept of salvation in which grace was unnecessary and man's heart was not affected by Adam's fall into sin. Augustine set forth the biblical teaching that Adam's sin was imputed to the race, that man did not have the moral ability to respond to Christ apart from the grace of God and, therefore, God was the initiator of salvation. Coupled with the idea that salvation was of the Lord was also the implication that God would carry out his plan and purpose in the life of each recipient of divine grace. Shortly after the time of Augustine, the Church moved away from his position and embraced a semi-pelagian concept in which man possessed an autonomous will that had the moral power to choose the gospel in and of itself. This laid the foundation for many of the Roman Catholic concepts of man contributing to his salvation through earning merit before God. Semi-Pelagianism focused on the power of man to choose the good; to make right moral decisions, and ultimately be able to choose Christ. This position denies the fact that Scripture teaches that man is dead in sin (Eph. 2:1-3; Col. 2:13); that no one is righteous, understands, or seeks for God (Rom. 3:9-12); that man is hostile to the law of God and is incapable of submitting to it (Rom. 8:7); that no one can come to Christ unless the Father draws him (John 6:44, 63-65); and that regeneration must precede faith (Eph. 2:1-5; John 3:1-10; John 1:12,13; 1 John 5:1). Semi-Pelagianism, in giving great power to man, also gives man the power to receive and reject salvation repeatedly. A person's salvation ultimately lies in the whims of that person's will. This is the background to the debate of whether or not a Christian can lose his salvation. The Augustinian position and later the position of the Reformers in the sixteenth century was that if a person is truly regenerate, God will protect and sustain that person so that he will persevere unto the end and be saved.

Many people who approach the Christian life in an antinomian (lawless) way and excuse their sin by saying, "It doesn't matter what I do, because I can't lose my salvation." That is a distortion, not only of grace, but also of the concept of salvation itself. Many of the arguments I have heard against the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints stem from understanding the doctrine in this way. Paul goes to great lengths in Romans 6 to demonstrate that if a person is truly in Christ, he cannot sin in order that grace might abound. Union with Christ presupposes a new heart that desires to obey God.

"For I am confident of this very thing, that he who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." (Phil.1:6) In John 6:37-40, Jesus states that all who the Father gives to him will come to him and the ones who come will not be cast out. Verses 39 and 40 say, "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that he has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I myself will raise him up on the last day." Jesus promises eternal life to those who believe and he immediately connects the giving of eternal life to the resurrection; those who come to him will be raised up on the last day (see also: John 5:24; 6:44). Just as Philippians 1:6 says that God will perfect the work which he began to the day of Christ Jesus, so also Jesus ties coming to him and receiving eternal life with the idea of a future resurrection. Receiving eternal life is concomitant with being raised on the last day. The two ideas cannot be separated. Eternal life is not eternal if it can be lost in the morning and regained in the evening only to be lost again at some future date; it is not eternal if it lasts only five days or five years. When Jesus promises eternal life and connects the receiving of eternal life with a future resurrection, he is teaching that the true believer is eternally saved.

This same idea is reiterated in John 10:27-29: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand." Again, Jesus states that he gives his sheep eternal life and emphasizes this by the statement that no one is able to snatch them out of either his or his Father's hand. Concerning this passage, some contend that although others cannot snatch a man out of God's hand, the man himself is free to do so. However, the verse states that no one can do this. That is a universal negative which certainly includes the man himself. The passage does not qualify the "no one" by saying that the regenerate man himself may make himself unregenerate and translate himself from the kingdom of God back into the kingdom and family of the devil. Another attempt to discount this passage argues that Satan can snatch a man out of the hand of God. This passage blatantly contends that the Father is greater than all and no one can snatch them out of his hand. That certainly includes the devil and man. This passage also demonstrates that the perseverance of the saints is actually a preservation by their Savior; their coming (being drawn by the Father) and their perseverance are grounded on God and not man (see: John 6:53,63-65).

If you believe in the sovereignty of God, that He is omnipotent, all powerful, then how can you disagree with the above passage? If man can take himself out of the Father’s hand, then in effect, that makes man more powerful than God! And this is not so. God sits on high, and rules all facets of my life, my world and is the only God.

The predominant teaching of Scripture is that the believer is eternally saved. The rejection of this position means that assurance of salvation is impossible. The most anyone could say is that at a present moment in their life they are in a state of grace, but they could not express assurance toward ultimate salvation; they could not say that they knew they were going to heaven because the possibility of falling from that state of grace sometime in their life exists. Those who hold that the true Christian can lose his salvation find themselves in disharmony with a preponderance of Scriptural evidence.

1 Final Perseverance, Asserted and Vindicated, John Gill

2 Ibid

3 Arthur W. Pink, An Exposition of Hebrews, Chapter 24: Apostasy

4 Final Perseverance, Asserted and Vindicated, John Gill

5 Arthur W. Pink, An Exposition of Hebrews, Chapter 24: Apostasy

This, and the last two posts have been posted numerous times since 2005 by me.

Reference: http://www.christianforums.com/threads/once-saved-always-saved.7663118/#post-60701681

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/once-saved-always-saved.7663118/#post-60701684

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/once-saved-always-saved.7663118/#post-60701685

God Bless

Till all are one.

You must of gone to a Seminary much like the one my wife and I went to. What seminary did you go to./ All the quotes you gave are from true Fathers of our Faith as well. I congratulate you on your persistence in making this available on this thread. Dis you formulate this yourself? This would get you a solid A in any class I took that's for sure.

I would like to copy this and use it in a class for other students, do I have your permission and whom should I say is responsible for such a fime work?

 

[farout]

Some Baptists teach it while others don't.

From my limited experience outside the United States and discussions with Baptists in other countries, it seems OSAS is not as prevalent a teaching as it is here in the U.S.

The Southern Baptists believe in OSAS in the sense that the believer is regenerated and becomes a new creation and he is "always saved" in that the Holy Spirit resides within him and will prevent him from apostasy. Because of the Spirit, the believer walks in Christ and produces good works.

I am wondering where you have found that eternal security of the believer is not a prevalent teaching? In my trips to central and South America I observed it all depended upon who was the majority of missionaries were that came first, and the denomination that was there in the largest numbers at the present. Often The Catholic Church had the majority of believers and OSAS was not something open for much dialogue.

 

[twin1954]

You must of gone to a Seminary much like the one my wife and I went to. What seminary did you go to./ All the quotes you gave are from true Fathers of our Faith as well. I congratulate you on your persistence in making this available on this thread. Dis you formulate this yourself? This would get you a solid A in any class I took that's for sure.

I would like to copy this and use it in a class for other students, do I have your permission and whom should I say is responsible for such a fime work?

I believe he went to Gordon Cromwell but he can tell you for sure. He is a close friend and brother in the Lord and I even went to his home to meet him. It was a most humbling experience and one that I will never forget. I cherish him more than I can express.

 

[twin1954]

Neither you or I were here before the world began, twin.

My post was talking about a sinner's contact and 'dealing' with Jesus. Not about the plans God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) made prior to this whole mess to provide redemption and salvation. (Mentioned in 2nd Timothy 1:9.)

Or do you believe the covenant mentioned in Second (2nd) Timothy 1:9, (not 1Tim. 1:9) is a 'universal' salvation for all people relieving mankind from repentance and application?

I find that the Scriptures are clear on the matter. And you are correct it is 2Tim. 1:9 If you don't believe in the Eternal Covenant of Grace then how are sinners saved?

Oh yeah I was there in Christ Jesus the Lord who stood for me before the world began. We who are believers are the elect of God. He set His wondrous love on us before He ever spoke this world into existence.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

I find that the Scriptures are clear on the matter. And you are correct it is 2Tim. 1:9 If you don't believe in the Eternal Covenant of Grace then how are sinners saved?

Oh yeah I was there in Christ Jesus the Lord who stood for me before the world began. We who are believers are the elect of God. He set His wondrous love on us before He ever spoke this world into existence.

Twin, we are obviously talking past each other. You haven't a clue to what I said or why I said it. You are responding to something completely different and I have no idea what you're on about.

If it makes you feel better, have the last word. I'm done.

 

[twin1954]

Twin, we are obviously talking past each other. You haven't a clue to what I said or why I said it. You are responding to something completely different and I have no idea what you're on about.

If it makes you feel better, have the last word. I'm done.

I just know that salvation is not a contract between the sinner and the Savior. Christ's term's of peace with the sinner is surrender or die. The only agreement we hav is that God is righteous and just to send us to Hell. the sinner that is saved always takes sides with God against himself and condemns himself.

There is no idea or implication in the Scriptures that a sinner can make a deal with God. he must fall at the feet of the Savior begging mercy and hoping as that leper in Matt. 8:2 who fell at the Saviors feet saying" if you will you can make me whole".

It is entirely up to Him to save not up to us to make a contract with Him as though we had negotiated our salvation.

 

[DeaconDean]

You must of gone to a Seminary much like the one my wife and I went to. What seminary did you go to./ All the quotes you gave are from true Fathers of our Faith as well. I congratulate you on your persistence in making this available on this thread. Dis you formulate this yourself? This would get you a solid A in any class I took that's for sure.

I would like to copy this and use it in a class for other students, do I have your permission and whom should I say is responsible for such a fime work?

I went to Extension Classes offered through Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary.

This was a study I did myself after taking some classes.

A teacher of mine made sure that not only did I get a "reformed" education, but also urged me to study the Arminian side as well.

He also introduced me to Mr. Pink, and John Gill.

By all means. Feel free to use it.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

I believe he went to Gordon Cromwell but he can tell you for sure. He is a close friend and brother in the Lord and I even went to his home to meet him. It was a most humbling experience and one that I will never forget. I cherish him more than I can express.

That is very kind of you brother.

I still remember that day. Breakfest, and then a visit at home.

I have only one regret.

The coffee wasn't strong enough.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

Southeastern has an extension campus in Charlotte NC, at Hickory Grove Baptist Church.

Gordon Cromwell also has an extension campus here in Charlotte NC.

But, I do know Gordon Cromwell is a Northern Baptist school and I don't know how well having a Northern Baptist education would be received here in the South.

Gardner Webb also has a seminary but the cost is way to high for my working self.

And still haven't finished that "other" research project yet.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[farout]

I believe he went to Gordon Cromwell but he can tell you for sure. He is a close friend and brother in the Lord and I even went to his home to meet him. It was a most humbling experience and one that I will never forget. I cherish him more than I can express.

You can tell he is a very deep thinker in understanding the WORD. Many read, but lack recall, something I am battling in my older age. I try to copy articles like his for future use, I always ask permission as plagiarism seems to be common and them when caught a persons testimony may be discredited beyond repair in places like this forum. Blessings have a God day.

 

[twin1954]

You can tell he is a very deep thinker in understanding the WORD. Many read, but lack recall, something I am battling in my older age. I try to copy articles like his for future use, I always ask permission as plagiarism seems to be common and them when caught a persons testimony may be discredited beyond repair in places like this forum. Blessings have a God day.

 

[farout]

I went to Extension Classes offered through Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary.

This was a study I did myself after taking some classes.

A teacher of mine made sure that not only did I get a "reformed" education, but also urged me to study the Arminian side as well.

He also introduced me to Mr. Pink, and John Gill.

By all means. Feel free to use it.

God Bless

Till all are one.

I went to the seminary and at the time Central Baptist Theological Seminary In KC< KS was more conservative. I doubles majored in Pastoral Care and Missiology. I tool six trips outside the US, and that really enlightened me as to the serious issues other countries deal with and the drastic deterioration in our own country. My eyes were opened to the Word of God is a much deeper way.

I found that the real study takes place after graduating. Unless a person goes back to being idle. Thank you for the post, blessings brother.

 

[twin1954]

I went to the seminary and at the time Central Baptist Theological Seminary In KC< KS was more conservative. I doubles majored in Pastoral Care and Missiology. I tool six trips outside the US, and that really enlightened me as to the serious issues other countries deal with and the drastic deterioration in our own country. My eyes were opened to the Word of God is a much deeper way.

I found that the real study takes place after graduating. Unless a person goes back to being idle. Thank you for the post, blessings brother.

I moved from Fla. ( gave up a great job too) to Ky. to go to Lexington Baptist College. I only made it one semester though. After a chapel service where the President of the college, with whom I sat and talked over doctrinal truth for hours before I moved, preached a sermon on 2 Pet. 3:9 and 1Tim. 2:4 as Arminian as I had ever heard. Before the first student was out the door I was up on the stage with my finger in his chest calling him a liar. He knew that I had him dead to rights and couldn't even answer a word.

After that they made it pretty clear that they didn't want me to come back and I didn't really want to either.

I am convinced that I learned more of theology and what it means to preach the Gospel of the free and sovereign grace of God in Christ Jesus sitting in the pew listening to a man truly called of God to preach His Gospel.

I taught myself Greek and am now starting on the Hebrew and Latin. Of course I had a lot of help from men who already know the languages and could guide me.