baptist vs. charismatic?

[adamdavid]

So you admit that they are a reason though?

In all reality, they're reasons to be WoF, not P/C, but WoF is in the Pentecostal/Charismatic category... and there are charismatics who preach 'seed faith' (a prinicpal which has proven itself in my life - I give to God and he always blesses me back, but I wouldn't use it as a way to get money from my congregation... to me its a 'my choice' thing, not a doctrine...) who aren't under the WoF banner, so I suppose you could say that it could be a reason for some people... but I would say that, on the whole, that has very little to do with why people are joining the Charismatic movement...

so would a pentacostal church be a charismatic church?

Also, with the headache, how is that given as a gift? I have had the same thing happen, but to me, I have asked God before for relief, and He has freely given it. how is that the gift?

There are differences between Pentecostals and Charismatics... but they are generally thrown into the same category... both practice the gifts of the spirit... As for the headache, that's a supernatural healing (one I have experienced more than once...), and is a gift from God... Granted, God healing you of a headache is not the same as being annointed to go out and heal the multitudes, but I was just listing some of the things I've experienced myself that would be in the category of the Spirit's power...

Peace to all...
AdamDavid

 

[BT]

so would a pentacostal church be a charismatic church?

Also, with the headache, how is that given as a gift? I have had the same thing happen, but to me, I have asked God before for relief, and He has freely given it. how is that the gift?

Hi momof4angels!

There is a difference between pentacostal and charismatic churchs and they are quite significant. While the pentacostal church does believe in the gifts of the Spirit they also (in my experience) follow the biblical guidelines of the use of the gifts (i.e. Must be done in order not chaos, One or two with tongues at one time at most with an interpreter, etc). The charismatic church does not hold to these guidelines (in my experience), there is no order, everyone is speaking in tongues at once, there are people laying around on the floord, people barking like dogs or acting like animals (which btw is completely unbiblical ), etc.

As to tongues let me give you a little help in understanding this issue...

There are three views of the gift of tongues.

1. Tongues are normalitive - meaning that tongues are an everyday normal thing that should be used all of the time and anytime you can. (Charismatics)

2. Tongues are non-normalitive - meaning that the gift of tongues do exist but they are not an everyday occurence and the use of them (on infrequent occaisions because they are rare) should be done in order according to biblical guidelines for order in the church. (Pentecostals and some others)

3. Tongues have ceased - meaning that the sign gift of tongues which was a sign to unbelievers, granted to the Apostles (and special ones designated or affected by the apostles), ceased (ended) with the Apostles and does not exist today because God's revelation to man is complete. (Baptists, Brethren, others)

I fall into category 3, though I was saved into category 1 and eventually went to a #2 before hitting 3 (ack! that's a confusing sentence).

The reasons that I believe the gift of tongues has ceased is based on the Bible, church history, modern history, and experience. I don't want to start a whole big thing here because I know that there are some who believe in tongues even amongst our Baptist brethren, but if you or anyone else wants to know why I don't believe that tongues exist please feel free to PM me.

 

[adamdavid]

There is a difference between pentacostal and charismatic churchs and they are quite significant. While the pentacostal church does believe in the gifts of the Spirit they also (in my experience) follow the biblical guidelines of the use of the gifts (i.e. Must be done in order not chaos, One or two with tongues at one time at most with an interpreter, etc). The charismatic church does not hold to these guidelines (in my experience), there is no order, everyone is speaking in tongues at once, there are people laying around on the floord, people barking like dogs or acting like animals (which btw is completely unbiblical ), etc.

As to tongues let me give you a little help in understanding this issue...

There are three views of the gift of tongues.

1. Tongues are normalitive - meaning that tongues are an everyday normal thing that should be used all of the time and anytime you can. (Charismatics)

2. Tongues are non-normalitive - meaning that the gift of tongues do exist but they are not an everyday occurence and the use of them (on infrequent occaisions because they are rare) should be done in order according to biblical guidelines for order in the church. (Pentecostals and some others)

3. Tongues have ceased - meaning that the sign gift of tongues which was a sign to unbelievers, granted to the Apostles (and special ones designated or affected by the apostles), ceased (ended) with the Apostles and does not exist today because God's revelation to man is complete. (Baptists, Brethren, others)

My experience has apparently been much different than yours... I have found that the Charismatic movement is much more biblical in our use of tongues than our Pentecostal Forefathers... Youre examples of Animal sounds are very few and far between, and many times they are not so 'anti-biblical' as you might think (I'm not gonna go into that here, but if you have questions, my PM box is always open ) As for people laying around on the floor (AKA being slain in the spirit...), I would have to say that that is also more common among Pentecostals and WoFers than charismatics... on tongues use: I have been to many pentecostal services where people have inerrupted the service spout off in tongues without any interpretation... mostly just because they wanted to... As a member of a Vineyard church (one of the larger parts of the Charismatic movement), I have yet to see a church service inerrupted for a message in tongues... prophecy, maybe, but not tongues. For the most part, tongues are used in the biblical 'between self and God' way. We are also the ones who say that tongues are not required for salvation (a common Pentecosal doctrine...), and not everyone practices them... In pentecostal churches, however, people tend to look down on those who don't...
Oh, and there are those whom you would expect to fall under category three that don't... Lets not forget that there's lots of tongues-talkin' baptists, catholics, methodists, etc. they're all over...

Blessings...
AdamDavid

 

[BT]

My experience has apparently been much different than yours... I have found that the Charismatic movement is much more biblical in our use of tongues than our Pentecostal Forefathers... Youre examples of Animal sounds are very few and far between, and many times they are not so 'anti-biblical' as you might think (I'm not gonna go into that here, but if you have questions, my PM box is always open ) As for people laying around on the floor (AKA being slain in the spirit...), I would have to say that that is also more common among Pentecostals and WoFers than charismatics... on tongues use: I have been to many pentecostal services where people have inerrupted the service spout off in tongues without any interpretation... mostly just because they wanted to... As a member of a Vineyard church (one of the larger parts of the Charismatic movement), I have yet to see a church service inerrupted for a message in tongues... prophecy, maybe, but not tongues. For the most part, tongues are used in the biblical 'between self and God' way. We are also the ones who say that tongues are not required for salvation (a common Pentecosal doctrine...), and not everyone practices them... In pentecostal churches, however, people tend to look down on those who don't...
Oh, and there are those whom you would expect to fall under category three that don't... Lets not forget that there's lots of tongues-talkin' baptists, catholics, methodists, etc. there all over...

Blessings...
AdamDavid

Yes I didn't mean to make a blanket statement if that's how it was perceived... Adam have you ever heard of the 'Toronto Airport Vineyard'?

 

[@@Paul@@]

Is the TAV somehow tied to "holy laughter"?

 

[adamdavid]

Adam have you ever heard of the 'Toronto Airport Vineyard'?

Yes, of course... but its not called that any more... now its TACF (Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship)... Broke away from the vineyard several years ago... Some of their 'manifestations' got a bit out of hand... much of it was okay, though... the pastor, John Arnott, wrote a good book explaining some of the manifestations that many people don't understand... its called 'The Father's Blessing', and it really makes alot of the confusing Toronto Blessing stuff a little less confusing...

Is the TAV somehow tied to "holy laughter"?

Very much so... if memory serves, the beginnings of the Toronto Blessing were where the first recorded occurrences of holy laughter happened... But now that's spread to the vast majority of the Charismatic movement... not that all charismatics have laughed, but most of the denominations/movements embrace it as a thing of God (I would be of that persuasion as well...)

Blessings...
AdamDavid

 

[@@Paul@@]

OH.

I wonder if it will also take a 103 years for everyone to believe "Holy Laughter" has always been around...

........don't get me started.

With Love.........

 

[JVD]

Yes, of course... but its not called that any more... now its TACF (Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship)... Broke away from the vineyard several years ago... Some of their 'manifestations' got a bit out of hand

As I understand it, Vinyard leadership asked TACF to break away because of their 'manifestations'. These 'manifestations' included among other things animal sounds (chickens, lions etc), spiritual drunkeness, catatonic states and more. I have not read Arnott's book but he must have to stretch scripture a bit to make sense of that stuff.

Although they are not a part of the vinyard they are still very close with TACF leaders/preachers speaking at many vinyard functions and churches. Vinyard music group distributes a TACF music CD under the vinyard label. So, although they may formally say they are seperate, they are still very close.

 

[@@Paul@@]

As I understand it, Vinyard leadership asked TACF to break away because of their 'manifestations'. These 'manifestations' included among other things animal sounds (chickens, lions etc), spiritual drunkeness, catatonic states and more. I have not read Arnott's book but he must have to stretch scripture a bit to make sense of that stuff.

Although they are not a part of the vinyard they are still very close with TACF leaders/preachers speaking at many vinyard functions and churches. Vinyard music group distributes a TACF music CD under the vinyard label. So, although they may formally say they are seperate, they are still very close.

They have music? wow,,, do you have a link?

 

[BT]

As I understand it, Vinyard leadership asked TACF to break away because of their 'manifestations'. These 'manifestations' included among other things animal sounds (chickens, lions etc), spiritual drunkeness, catatonic states and more. I have not read Arnott's book but he must have to stretch scripture a bit to make sense of that stuff.

Although they are not a part of the vinyard they are still very close with TACF leaders/preachers speaking at many vinyard functions and churches. Vinyard music group distributes a TACF music CD under the vinyard label. So, although they may formally say they are seperate, they are still very close.

There is much to say on Arnott, his book, his supposed manifestations, his supposed prophecies. etc. Being a resident of a city which is 30 minutes from Toronto.. I've seen and heard and been subjected to some things that ought not be (this again is not to lump all Charismatic churches in the same bucket I'm talking about the TO Airport church.).

 

[bleechers]

I've already shared my AoG experience, but I did want to add just one point to this thread that helped convince me that the movement was probably man-made:

My Aunt is a big charismatic. She goes to the conferences, she manifests the gifts, etc... Problem is, she belongs to a church that rejects the gospel of the free grace of God (guess which one )... So, I wonder, how can she have the "second blessing" when she never experienced the first?

Here's what else troubles me, because she manifests the "gifts" the Evangelical charismatic people she cavorts with won't dare question her salvation... even thou she rejects the gospel and her husband writes against "Baptist preachers" and what he calls a faulty gospel?

She is doubly deceived.

 

[JVD]

They have music? wow,,, do you have a link?

http://www.vineyardmusicusa.com/

 

[BT]

Here's what else troubles me, because she manifests the "gifts" the Evangelical charismatic people she cavorts with won't dare question her salvation... even thou she rejects the gospel and her husband writes against "Baptist preachers" and what he calls a faulty gospel?

Bleechers let me give you some help (maybe) with her.. I mean I don't know the woman and you do so you can decide if it's of any use...

1) If she has the gift of tongues ask her which language she is speaking (that the sign gift of tongues were natural human languages is absolutely plain in the Bible, and easy to show). If she doesn't know then offer to drive her down to your local China-town (if there is one around you, or use a similar ethnic community), ask her to use her gift once in this ethnic community to witness to people and spread the glory of God (since this is what the gift of tongues was used for).

Unfortunately what you'll likely find (as is my experience) is that they will attempt to argue with you claiming that the tongues are a "heavenly" language. To which ask her, "Which angel, or even demon for that matter, in the Bible ever spoke to a man in a language other than the language that the hearer spoke...?" When the angel appeared to Mary did he say to her, "huyu kikky moo sloom sloom sloom!" or did he deliver his message in a plain english that Mary understood? Point being that the verse concerning "heavenly language" that is often used is torn out of context and twisted (often by simply deceived people) to mean what it does not.

Anyway those are just a couple of ideas...

Here's a side story that I think you'll get a kick out of...

Recently in Canada we had a federal election. A friend of mine from church who teaches the youth Sunday School and who also preaches from time to time is right involved in politics. So he went to the local candidates debate. Afterwards he approached the local liberal candidate and asked him, "What is your stance on religious issues?" The local candidate replied, "I keep religion out of politics as much as I can." My friend asked, "What is your take on the Baptist denominations?" To which the liberal member replied, "Baptist Preachers are the biggest hate-mongers the world has ever seen!" My friend sighed and replied, "Considering you have just called me a hate-monger, I don't think I'll vote for you. Neither, I suppose, will the people of my church."

I thought that was kind of funny... (yet sad)

 

[adamdavid]

As I understand it, Vinyard leadership asked TACF to break away because of their 'manifestations'. These 'manifestations' included among other things animal sounds (chickens, lions etc), spiritual drunkeness, catatonic states and more. I have not read Arnott's book but he must have to stretch scripture a bit to make sense of that stuff.

Although they are not a part of the vinyard they are still very close with TACF leaders/preachers speaking at many vinyard functions and churches. Vinyard music group distributes a TACF music CD under the vinyard label. So, although they may formally say they are seperate, they are still very close.

John Wimber (The founder of the Vineyard and the man who oversaw the assoc. until his death... he was still in charge when Toronto left...) asked Toronto to leave the Assoc. of Vineyard churches not so much because of his problem with what was going on, but because the renewal services did not fit the Vineyard model that God gave him. God put him in charge of the Vineyard, and gave him a specific model to follow. The combination of TAV's unique style and all the criticism that was being shoved on Wimber because of it resulted in his requesting the separation... He and Arnott stayed close for all of Wimber's life, the parting had no hard feelings, and most importantly, Wimber gave the new TACF his blessing, and he acknowledged that it was very much a move of God, just a move of a different calling than the Vineyard. Yes, we have remained close... Really, there's no reason we shouldn't... we're all just a bunch of people who want to spend our lives lovin' on God...
Actually, the book is not so away from scripture as you might think... He doesn't try to give occurences of the manifestations from scripture (that wouldn't work... there aren't any...), but by taking principles and concepts from scripture, he kinda uses logic to pull you to a place where the manifestations make sense as what they are, instead of the common reaction of 'Those TACF folk are a bunch of loonies...'

 

[adamdavid]

I wonder if it will also take a 103 years for everyone to believe "Holy Laughter" has always been around...

........don't get me started.

Not sure I follow... perhaps you could clarify as to what you're trying to say...

 

[adamdavid]

If she has the gift of tongues ask her which language she is speaking (that the sign gift of tongues were natural human languages is absolutely plain in the Bible, and easy to show). If she doesn't know then offer to drive her down to your local China-town (if there is one around you, or use a similar ethnic community), ask her to use her gift once in this ethnic community to witness to people and spread the glory of God (since this is what the gift of tongues was used for).

Unfortunately what you'll likely find (as is my experience) is that they will attempt to argue with you claiming that the tongues are a "heavenly" language. To which ask her, "Which angel, or even demon for that matter, in the Bible ever spoke to a man in a language other than the language that the hearer spoke...?" When the angel appeared to Mary did he say to her, "huyu kikky moo sloom sloom sloom!" or did he deliver his message in a plain english that Mary understood? Point being that the verse concerning "heavenly language" that is often used is torn out of context and twisted (often by simply deceived people) to mean what it does not.

~Tries to bite tongue and keep from being my loud-mouthed, opinionated self... it's not working, sorry...~

The 'tongues' that most charismatics use is that of a devotional language that is understood only by God. Paul talked about it in 1 Cor. 14. It is biblical, but no matter how hard we try, there is no way for us to utter it in such a way as to make it to make sense to the people down in China town... so sorry...

And where is it that you get that it is easy to show from scripture that Tongues are natural human languages? I thought I read most of those passages, but I don't remember that one... I remember Acts 2, where the disciples were speaking a language that was understood by many people from different countries, and I've heard people try to use that to prove that tongues are normal, natural, earthly languages, but that doesn't make a whole lotta sense... Everyone heard their own languages! Doesn't that say anything to you??? To me, that has made it very obvious that, contrary to the 'instant foreign language class theory' that you support, there was a two-fold miracle that involved the gift of tongues (unknown languages) and the gift of interpretation (everyone heard their own languages... the audience was given the gift of interpreting, and that is how they heard the gospel...) my view is again confirmed by the fact that there were some passers-by who didn't understand... they proclaimed that these men were drunk!!! If you heard a foreigner speaking crystal clear english without having to learn it, would you call it pre-noon drunkeness or a miracle? I'm thinkin' miracle's the more logical conclusion... obviously, some people didn't recieve the interpretation part... If they had heard the disciples speaking their own languages, they would have been amazed, too, not made fun of them... So in order for your China-Town tongues test to accurately work, you would have to have God impart the gift of interpretation to all the china-town dwellers before they would understand my ramblings...

Sorry... its late... that rant was probably not worded as well as it should have been, and maybe it would make more sense if I wrote it some time when I wasn't falling asleep at the keyboard... Oh well... I'm gonna go to bed now... may all you out there in Baptist-land be blessed with God's divine peace, love, and joy...

Much love and many blessings...
AdamDavid

 

[BT]

~Tries to bite tongue and keep from being my loud-mouthed, opinionated self... it's not working, sorry...~

The 'tongues' that most charismatics use is that of a devotional language that is understood only by God. Paul talked about it in 1 Cor. 14. It is biblical, but no matter how hard we try, there is no way for us to utter it in such a way as to make it to make sense to the people down in China town... so sorry...

And where is it that you get that it is easy to show from scripture that Tongues are natural human languages? I thought I read most of those passages, but I don't remember that one... I remember Acts 2, where the disciples were speaking a language that was understood by many people from different countries, and I've heard people try to use that to prove that tongues are normal, natural, earthly languages, but that doesn't make a whole lotta sense... Everyone heard their own languages! Doesn't that say anything to you??? To me, that has made it very obvious that, contrary to the 'instant foreign language class theory' that you support, there was a two-fold miracle that involved the gift of tongues (unknown languages) and the gift of interpretation (everyone heard their own languages... the audience was given the gift of interpreting, and that is how they heard the gospel...) my view is again confirmed by the fact that there were some passers-by who didn't understand... they proclaimed that these men were drunk!!! If you heard a foreigner speaking crystal clear english without having to learn it, would you call it pre-noon drunkeness or a miracle? I'm thinkin' miracle's the more logical conclusion... obviously, some people didn't recieve the interpretation part... If they had heard the disciples speaking their own languages, they would have been amazed, too, not made fun of them... So in order for your China-Town tongues test to accurately work, you would have to have God impart the gift of interpretation to all the china-town dwellers before they would understand my ramblings...

Sorry... its late... that rant was probably not worded as well as it should have been, and maybe it would make more sense if I wrote it some time when I wasn't falling asleep at the keyboard... Oh well... I'm gonna go to bed now... may all you out there in Baptist-land be blessed with God's divine peace, love, and joy...

Much love and many blessings...
AdamDavid

Hello Adam. I hope you get some good rest tonight. I often type when I'm half asleep and it doesn't usually work out well for me.

I'll keep this short and sweet for tonight. Just a couple of questions..

1. Do you really want me to take you through 1 Corinthians 14, or were you just kinda give your opinion?

2. Do you really want me to take you through the sign gift of tongues in the Acts, or was it an opinion thing.

Now please understand, the reason that I've put these questions like this rather than just starting to wax eloquent is because these are not small verses. The issue is one that I have studied and I know from my own personal study that when you get into this doctrine you got to go deep. I am willing to do it, but only if you really want it. To understand tongues (we'll focus on tongues because they are usually the most controversial of the sign gifts) you must use a lot of diverse areas of study including, the passages themselves, church history (somewhat), dispensations, and Greek (I really hate to have to go to Greek and usually don't because it is confusing for some and misused by many, but in this case the Greek really sheds some light on this subject). So let me know. I am willing to go through it all with you if you want. If you don't want to then we'll just agree to disagree....

 

[adamdavid]

Hello Adam. I hope you get some good rest tonight. I often type when I'm half asleep and it doesn't usually work out well for me.

I'll keep this short and sweet for tonight. Just a couple of questions..

1. Do you really want me to take you through 1 Corinthians 14, or were you just kinda give your opinion?

2. Do you really want me to take you through the sign gift of tongues in the Acts, or was it an opinion thing.

Now please understand, the reason that I've put these questions like this rather than just starting to wax eloquent is because these are not small verses. The issue is one that I have studied and I know from my own personal study that when you get into this doctrine you got to go deep. I am willing to do it, but only if you really want it. To understand tongues (we'll focus on tongues because they are usually the most controversial of the sign gifts) you must use a lot of diverse areas of study including, the passages themselves, church history (somewhat), dispensations, and Greek (I really hate to have to go to Greek and usually don't because it is confusing for some and misused by many, but in this case the Greek really sheds some light on this subject). So let me know. I am willing to go through it all with you if you want. If you don't want to then we'll just agree to disagree....

As you can tell, I haven't done a very good job of getting myself to bed... I started to, but got too caught up in other forums... CF is altogether way too addictive. Its quite obvious you've done your homework. So have I (I've done lots of it. I got to where I am from a theology quite opposite, and it took lots of time in the word). We came to different conclusions - that much is obvious, too. I, however, have no real problem with that. I've gone into the greek, too, so I know its not that much fun... I've done that debate with well educated people more times than I care to think about. It always ends the same way. I'm still a charismatic, and they're still not. Doubtless this one would end the same way. I have no problem arguing/debating on the level we've been going at, but any deeper is just too much hassle for something that is destined to be fruitless... My intentions were simply to have a tried and true charismatic present in a thread that was bound to be full of either biased former P/C's like yourself or completely uninformed non-P/C's who have absolutely no knowledge of the renewall... I sucessfully did that, and if this thread keeps going, I will probably still do that... I have no need, however, to make a long, tedious, obnoxious walk with you through the subject of tongues in a large circle back to where I started from. I say we just agree to disagree, and continue to live our lives as brothers in christ who just see him from different angles...

Now I think I really should go to bed... It was late last time I said good night. Now its an hour later... oh well... I suppose CF is a better thing to do than sleep anyways, right?

In Christ...
AdamDavid

 

[@@Paul@@]

Not sure I follow... perhaps you could clarify as to what you're trying to say...

The "tongues movement" began in 1901 in Topeka, Kansas; 103 years ago... We seem to forget that and believe it's always been part of Christianity.

 

[BT]

As you can tell, I haven't done a very good job of getting myself to bed... I started to, but got too caught up in other forums... CF is altogether way too addictive. Its quite obvious you've done your homework. So have I (I've done lots of it. I got to where I am from a theology quite opposite, and it took lots of time in the word). We came to different conclusions - that much is obvious, too. I, however, have no real problem with that. I've gone into the greek, too, so I know its not that much fun... I've done that debate with well educated people more times than I care to think about. It always ends the same way. I'm still a charismatic, and they're still not. Doubtless this one would end the same way. I have no problem arguing/debating on the level we've been going at, but any deeper is just too much hassle for something that is destined to be fruitless... My intentions were simply to have a tried and true charismatic present in a thread that was bound to be full of either biased former P/C's like yourself or completely uninformed non-P/C's who have absolutely no knowledge of the renewall... I sucessfully did that, and if this thread keeps going, I will probably still do that... I have no need, however, to make a long, tedious, obnoxious walk with you through the subject of tongues in a large circle back to where I started from. I say we just agree to disagree, and continue to live our lives as brothers in christ who just see him from different angles...

Now I think I really should go to bed... It was late last time I said good night. Now its an hour later... oh well... I suppose CF is a better thing to do than sleep anyways, right?

In Christ...
AdamDavid

This is probably one of the greatest replies that I've ever gotten on this subject. Thank you very much! God Bless you as you continue to follow him and study.

Very cool.

BT