baptist vs. charismatic?

[Iosias]

I didnt think that the gifts were still around today? Like the healing and speaking in tounges?

Quite correct

 

[JVD]

I didnt think that the gifts were still around today? Like the healing and speaking in tounges?

Has this been documented?

This is a surprising question to me because I have been observing, attending, and studying churches that practice these "gifts" for more than 30 years.

Churches that believe in these gifts and practice what they think are the gifts of tongues, prophecy, healing and more are really the fastest growing churches in the world today. In third world countries this is extremely big. It has to do with a greater acceptance of things mystical or supernatural without many questions of the source of such manifestations.

In my opinion, this issue is going to become the largest one the church (body of Christ) will face in the near future. The reason is that out of this growing movement are people who believe they not only have the gift of prophecy, but hold the office of a prophet. And others who believe they hold the office of an apostle, with the same authority of Peter and Paul. They already have huge followings. That issue has to be faced.

 

[momof4angels]

I have seen some of the TV preachers who use the "gift" of healing to rack in money, like Benny Hinn ( I think I am spelling that right). It did break my heart, cause he is a fraud. That is why I wondered if real churches were doing this. I dont think there are any in my area.

 

[bleechers]

I have seen some of the TV preachers who use the "gift" of healing to rack in money, like Benny Hinn ( I think I am spelling that right). It did break my heart, cause he is a fraud. That is why I wondered if real churches were doing this. I dont think there are any in my area.

Too many are buying into these guys because of their promises of wealth and properity.

2 Peter 2
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.


"God is not your personal Santa Claus." - Oliver B. Greene

 

[Dead Man Walking]

If you are called of God and are someones child or grandchild you are a candidate for the gifts of the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:38). But Tongues will end! Just as soon as all prophecies have been fulfilled and everything is known that can be known (I Cor. 13:8).

 

[adamdavid]

Too many are buying into these guys because of their promises of wealth and properity.

But wealth and prosperity aren't the only reasons for being a charismatic... I'm a firm believer in the gifts of the spirit for the use of the church today, and I've seen them work effectively in church settings... And I am perfectly content to not be rich... God will take care of my needs because I am his child, but beyond that the extra little blessings are his business... I'll be content either way...
I have entered my church with the worst headache you can imagine, started worshipping the Lord, and poof - no more headache... I have spoken in tongues (in a scriptural, devotional, 'just me and god' sense...) many many times, and it has always been a refreshing time of closeness with my saviour, not some sort of 'counterfeit'... I have both recieved and delivered prophetic messages from god that have contained information that only god could have spoken... Its real! It happens... of course there are counterfeits, but they are only there because there is something real to mimic... God is powerful, and he is willing to show his power if we let him...

That is why I wondered if real churches were doing this. I dont think there are any in my area.

I find it hard to believe that there aren't any Charismatic churches in you're area... do you live out in a really rural community or something? If not, there probably is one (or more...), you just probably don't know they do these things...

much love and many blessings...
AdamDavid
(another bapticostal... kinda... more -icostal than bapti-, but theres still a little bapti- in there somewhere )

 

[Iosias]

But wealth and prosperity aren't the only reasons for being a charismatic...

So you admit that they are a reason though?

 

[momof4angels]

so would a pentacostal church be a charismatic church?

Also, with the headache, how is that given as a gift? I have had the same thing happen, but to me, I have asked God before for relief, and He has freely given it. how is that the gift?

 

[Dead Man Walking]

WEALTH AND PROSPERITY ARE NOT REASONS TO AVOID CHARISMATIC AND PENTECOSTAL CHURCHES. They are reasons to avoid Word of Faith churches!!!!!!!

 

[BT]

I have seen some of the TV preachers who use the "gift" of healing to rack in money, like Benny Hinn ( I think I am spelling that right). It did break my heart, cause he is a fraud. That is why I wondered if real churches were doing this. I dont think there are any in my area.

Don't even get me started with these guys!

 

[mesue]

I think in 1 Corinthians Chapter 12 Paul states clearly the purpose for spiritual gifts. I think if one has the Holy Spirit indwelling in them that one has all the spriritual gifts in some amount of measure. See verse 11.


[Bible]1 Corinthians 12:1-31[/Bible]

 

[BT]

WEALTH AND PROSPERITY ARE NOT REASONS TO AVOID CHARISMATIC AND PENTECOSTAL CHURCHES. They are reasons to avoid Word of Faith churches!!!!!!!

OK OK I gotta agree with him here....

Word of Faith aren't churches they are far closer to the kingdom of the cults than anything else...

 

[BT]

I think in 1 Corinthians Chapter 12 Paul states clearly the purpose for spiritual gifts. I think if one has the Holy Spirit indwelling in them that one has all the spriritual gifts in some amount of measure. See verse 11.


1 Corinthians 12:1-311 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. 2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. 3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. 4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many. 15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? 18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. 19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20 But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: 23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. 24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: 25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. 27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. 28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet show I unto you a more excellent way.

Hi mesue. I won't start a big debate over this. What you've said is definately one way that the interpretation is made. There are others and reasons (which I'm sure you've heard at one point or so down the line).

....

Peace

 

[@@Paul@@]

No but you can always go to certain churches and see the "manifestation" for yourself. I would not recommend it though, it will break your heart.

I was saved in an Independent Baptist Church (straight outa the 80’s, mimicking “Little House on the Prairie”!!) at the age of 14 ……. So of course I grew up NOT believing in the “gifts of power” (as opposed to the “gifts of the Spirit”)…
About a year ago; I began wondering WHY I believed this way (dating a charismatic will do that to you), I never really knew nor could I explain it… just followed orders and said “I don’t believe in that nope”…. So I attended some strange churches, even an Amillenial Charismatic Baptist Church… or BapCathOcstal as I like to call them. j/k…….. even a “healing” / “tongues” / “drunk-in-the-spirit” church.. WOW…
………don’t even ask me to describe the “prayer” meeting I went to. Ugh… talk about “manifestation” – more like an “anxiety attack” ….. of course later I was told; “you’re just not used to the spirit moving, but you will be” – notice the little (s) – something was moving, don’t get me started.
All of which reminded me something I had JUST read prior to attending the meeting. It was "Why We Chant" - by Zen Master Seung Sahn:

"So chanting is very important. At first you won't understand. But after you chant regularly, you will understand. 'Ah, chanting-very good feeling!' It is the same with bowing 108 times. At first people don't like this. Why do we bow? We are not bowing to Buddha, we are bowing to ourselves. Small I is bowing to Big I. Then Small I disappears and becomes Big I This is true bowing. So come practice with us. You will soon understand."
The student bowed and said, "Thank you very much."

I really can’t recall WHY I read that, or even how I stumbled across it… Can God hide more things than His Word in our hearts?

Anyway… After 6 months of studying I came to the conclusion,,,, that there’s no logical excuse (or scriptural reason) as to WHY these “gifts of power”, should not be going on today. – the only thing I realized, even the “tongues” and “healing” which is happening today is not the same as the events described in Acts.

-------------> thus began the long road from Acts 2 to Acts 28<-------------

Paul says there is only ONE Baptism today… and it’s BY the Spirit, not WITH. IMHO.

My point is; “manifestations” can be a scary thing…

 

[bleechers]

I didn't mean to equate all charismatics with Word-Faith... my post was in response to Benny Hinn's cash machine. I certainly know some AoG people who reject his ilk in no uncertain terms!

As I noted in my first post, I find the teaching that Jesus and salvation equal a life with no power in it... therefore, you need a "second blessing"... to be an insult to the gospel and to the power of Christ.

In my experience (note I said MY) I found it odd that salvation was free gift, but now I had to beg and plead all night at an altar to get the "gift" of tongues? Hmmm, some "gift". In some cases, people had to wait for months.

Also, I had a problem with "prophesying over people" and "interpretation of tongues". At first, it all seemed cool and supernatural... then the "interpreters" started saying crazy things... things I couldn't check out in my Bible... WHOA! That really troubled me! I saw people "prophesying" about who people were supposed to marry and even worse... Eventually one word started to stick in my mind from the NT... "chaos".

I saw "chaos". People wailing into microphones, People flopping on the floor in seizures. I found none of it in my Bible. It got to the point that I could tell when the "chaos" would begin... the keyboardist was essential in bringing the room to the "hands up" point... He knew how to work the room.

Then I started to get the "don't let your tradition trip you up" stuff when I started to ask people for chapter and verse for all this. "Don't put God in a box" and similar anti-biblical statements were thrown out. Question the doctrine of any preacher and get "touch not God's anointed"... Chaos.

Again, that was MY experience.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Question the doctrine of any preacher and get "touch not God's anointed"... Chaos.

Again, that was MY experience.

I hear ya. But is he God's annointed if its contary to Scripture???

 

[bleechers]

I hear ya. But is he God's annointed if its contary to Scripture???

It is a scripture verse, but they misuse it. The two verses that state this in the OT refer to true prophets. The definition of a true prophet is also in scripture.

A true prophet will

A) never speak anything in the name of the Lord that does not come to pass
B) never contradict the Word of God

When Paul preached (a set-apart Apostle) even he was subject to the scriptures (Acts 17:11, Gal 1:6-9).

We are commanded several times in the NT to reject false teachers.

I also believe that "touch" in the context of the passages mentioned refers to physically harming people. In the case of false prophets, however, they were to be stoned.

 

[JVD]

Anyway… After 6 months of studying I came to the conclusion,,,, that there’s no logical excuse (or scriptural reason) as to WHY these “gifts of power”, should not be going on today. – the only thing I realized, even the “tongues” and “healing” which is happening today is not the same as the events described in Acts.

Interesting post...I think I am on the same page that you are. I feel a case can be made that "gifts of power" as you call them could be available today, but most of what are called manifestations of these gifts today likely are not.

The only thing I can see that would argue against them being for today is that they were used primarily by apostles or those directly with apostles. However I don't think that is a an open and shut argument. Also, you can use the cessationist's arguement which also has holes in it.

Regardless, the current practice in P/C churches and even more so in resorationist/dominionist churches today is going farther and farther from the word.

 

[@@Paul@@]

I hear ya. But is he God's annointed if its contary to Scripture???

OH......but........ If you question, then hear "quench NOT the Spirit" OR they kindly remind you that if you "blaspheme the Spirit" it is unforgivable. - I might wonder.

 

[@@Paul@@]

Interesting post...I think I am on the same page that you are. I feel a case can be made that "gifts of power" as you call them could be available today, but most of what are called manifestations of these gifts today likely are not.

The only thing I can see that would argue against them being for today is that they were used primarily by apostles or those directly with apostles. However I don't think that is a an open and shut argument. Also, you can use the cessationist's arguement which also has holes in it.

Regardless, the current practice in P/C churches and even more so in resorationist/dominionist churches today is going farther and farther from the word.

You're right,,,it's not open and shut; that's why we were told to study!! And if you are studying to only prove OR disprove a particular belief, you're (people in general) not really "teachable".

As I see it, my last comment (in my previous post) is the ONLY "open and shut argument" as to why the "gift of power" stopped....