Baptist views on feminism

[MyHeroIsJesus]

Authority of Scripture, and the sovereignty of God are very important in understanding the things of God. It gives me great joy to see others seek after the things of God. I believe God is sovereign, and with that, I believe that he wants us all to take things to their logical conclusion, but in matters that seem to be out of our reach logically, God is in charge, and it doesn't matter how smart we are or how hard we try, some things are not for us to know. To glorify God should be our main goal, when we seek to bring glory to God all other situations will be as they should be. We should always take God at His word.

 

[leothelioness]

My uncle, who is our preacher, made a very good point in a sermon. I won't be able to do his point any justice as I can't remember exactly how he put it, but he said that because of woman being created last and being in the submissive role, God probably had a greater purpose for us. That's not to say that He favors us more, but that we had a greater role to fulfill.

It should also be mentioned that Jesus said that whoever is first is last, and whoever is last is first in Heaven. It's interesting that those that were more meek and lowly were favored by God. I think women pretty much fill that bill. JMO.

 

[leothelioness]

It is very clear in the Scriptures that Eve was deceived not Adam. The Serpent beguiled Eve but he didn't beguile Adam. Adam was a federal head of all that would be born by him. He represented all of the human race before God. Rom. 5 If Eve had eaten of the fruit and Adam had not we would all be in paradise because nothing would have been lost but Eve. Eve was deceived but Adam wasn't. Adam went into sin with his eyes wide open. He wanted Eve more than he wanted God.
Now part of the curse on Eve, and all women by her, is that her husband will rule over her. Gen, 3:17?

No offense, but that is a classic argument that has been used in centuries past to justify the supposed superiority of men. I asked why God created woman as the supposed "weaker vessel", not why Eve sinned first.

 

[mlqurgw]

No offense, but that is a classic argument that has been used in centuries past to justify the supposed superiority of men. I asked why God created woman as the supposed "weaker vessel", not why Eve sinned first.

You assume far too much. You assume I am arguing that men are superior to women and I am not. I suspect no argument will suffice to convince you as you seem to have your mind made up. If you will not bow to Scripture I will not try to convince you by any other argument because it is pointless. When I choose to debate I don't choose to debate a brick wall.

 

[Ringo84]

So then the Bible is bogus?

That's not what I said. Let's try to discuss this issue without putting words into people's mouths.

You are a different individual, but we are the same gender, therefore we serve the same purpose.

What does gender matter?

God has made the woman the weaker vessel for a purpose. It might be that women are weaker because God's plan is for the two together to be stronger or it might be for a reason still unknown to us. Either way, God has made women that way and has placed man in a position of authority over women.

But they aren't the "weaker vessel". Pregnancy and labor are both events that men could not survive because they haven't the strength for them.

Yes you are, when you say that women are not the weaker vessel and the Bible says they are.

Once again, this is not what I said. Please try to stick with what I said - not what you think I said.

Mutual submission is necessary for a relationship, but you deny any authority of man over the woman even though this is what the Bible clearly states.

So if mutual submission is necessary, why does this verse ask only women to submit?

It is clear that the Bible compares the husband and wife relationship to that of Christ and His Bride the church. Which came first? God patterned the husband/wife relationship after the coming relationship of Christ and the church. That is why the Bible compares these.

That's one metaphor for marriage, but marriage is different than the relationship between God and man.
Ringo

 

[leothelioness]

You assume far too much. You assume I am arguing that men are superior to women and I am not. I suspect no argument will suffice to convince you as you seem to have your mind made up. If you will not bow to Scripture I will not try to convince you by any other argument because it is pointless. When I choose to debate I don't choose to debate a brick wall.

No, you are assuming too much. I am not saying that that was your argument, I was saying that your argument was one that had been used for centuries to justify the belief that men are better than women.

My original question was not answered, however. Why was woman created as the "weaker vessel"?

 

[leothelioness]

My uncle, who is our preacher, made a very good point in a sermon. I won't be able to do his point any justice as I can't remember exactly how he put it, but he said that because of woman being created last and being in the submissive role, God probably had a greater purpose for us. That's not to say that He favors us more, but that we had a greater role to fulfill.

It should also be mentioned that Jesus said that whoever is first is last, and whoever is last is first in Heaven. It's interesting that those that were more meek and lowly were favored by God. I think women pretty much fill that bill. JMO.

I'm also interested in people's opinions on the above. So far no one has addressed it.

 

[DeaconDean]

nm

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Brad2009]

I think that scripture is sufficiently clear on the subject. Wives are to submit to their husbands as head of the 'one flesh' which emerges from the union of marriage - not necessarily silently obidient, but respectful of God's will as reflected by their husband. Husbands are to love the wives as Christ loves the Church, not using authority as a club - but being judicious in authority and serving the needs of his wife properly. Both can err from their proper role, but the error of the husband does not excuse the error of the wife, nor does the error of the wife excuse the error of the husband. Both must strive to live up to scripture, and neither is given a task which comes easily, or is without its proper reward.

And yes, women are very obviously physically weaker than men. That doesn't mean less smart, just weaker. Putting aside the modern era, that meant that men in a very literal way supported their wives and children, since physical toil was the rule of how people got their sustainance from the earth. In the modern era, technology has allowed us to 'divorce' provision from physical strength, which has led to some confusion IMO as to the straightforward meaning of the scriptures.

And, wow, I don't think modern people even pause to consider how much work went into running a household before the advent of modern technology like washing machines, microwaves, etc...; even the simple oven is an unprecidented historical blessing. When modern feminists dismiss the type of toil which went into being 'just' a homemaker and mother, I am frankly baffled. Historically, running a household with love and efficiency was a truely worthy calling, as it is today.

BTW - I don't care for feminism at all. Even tho you embrace a softer version, the depth of filth and intellectual dishonesty which has come from that particular school of thought is staggering. I equally loathe the dimishment of my sisters in Christ by any man or woman. IMO, feminism has far more diminished women by denying that the worth of women is relative to men. Believe me when I say, men absolutely NEED women too - each sex has worth which is relative to the other, intrinsically. But we are not the same - men have their proper sphere and so do women.

 

[leothelioness]

I think that scripture is sufficiently clear on the subject. Wives are to submit to their husbands as head of the 'one flesh' which emerges from the union of marriage - not necessarily silently obidient, but respectful of God's will as reflected by their husband. Husbands are to love the wives as Christ loves the Church, not using authority as a club - but being judicious in authority and serving the needs of his wife properly. Both can err from their proper role, but the error of the husband does not excuse the error of the wife, nor does the error of the wife excuse the error of the husband. Both must strive to live up to scripture, and neither is given a task which comes easily, or is without its proper reward.

And yes, women are very obviously physically weaker than men. That doesn't mean less smart, just weaker. Putting aside the modern era, that meant that men in a very literal way supported their wives and children, since physical toil was the rule of how people got their sustainance from the earth. In the modern era, technology has allowed us to 'divorce' provision from physical strength, which has led to some confusion IMO as to the straightforward meaning of the scriptures.

And, wow, I don't think modern people even pause to consider how much work went into running a household before the advent of modern technology like washing machines, microwaves, etc...; even the simple oven is an unprecidented historical blessing. When modern feminists dismiss the type of toil which went into being 'just' a homemaker and mother, I am frankly baffled. Historically, running a household with love and efficiency was a truely worthy calling, as it is today.

BTW - I don't care for feminism at all. Even tho you embrace a softer version, the depth of filth and intellectual dishonesty which has come from that particular school of thought is staggering. I equally loathe the dimishment of my sisters in Christ by any man or woman. IMO, feminism has far more diminished women by denying that the worth of women is relative to men. Believe me when I say, men absolutely NEED women too - each sex has worth which is relative to the other, intrinsically. But we are not the same - men have their proper sphere and so do women.

That was a great post. Thanks for that.

 

[Ringo84]

Wives are to submit to their husbands as head of the 'one flesh' which emerges from the union of marriage - not necessarily silently obidient, but respectful of God's will as reflected by their husband

I thought we had already established the submission and accountability worked two ways in a marriage, which is why I'm still having trouble figuring out why the verse calls only women to submit.

Both can err from their proper role, but the error of the husband does not excuse the error of the wife, nor does the error of the wife excuse the error of the husband.

Exactly. They are both held accountable to one another.Accountability is a form of submission. So both men and women submit in a marriage, because that's how relationships work.

And yes, women are very obviously physically weaker than men.

Of course, claims that women are the "weaker vessel" are coming from some of the men in this thread - not the women. I'd be willing to bet that those men would change their minds about women being "weaker vessels" if they experienced pregnancy and labor first hand.

And, wow, I don't think modern people even pause to consider how much work went into running a household before the advent of modern technology like washing machines, microwaves, etc...; even the simple oven is an unprecidented historical blessing. When modern feminists dismiss the type of toil which went into being 'just' a homemaker and mother, I am frankly baffled. Historically, running a household with love and efficiency was a truely worthy calling, as it is today.

Interesting. In one paragraph, you claim that women are "weaker vessels". In the next, you discuss how much work it takes to run a household. When you add up all the work women face at home with pregnancy, labor, menstruation and menopause, women begin to seem less and less like the "weaker vessel". One has to have a strong constitution to endure all of that.

the depth of filth and intellectual dishonesty which has come from that particular school of thought is staggering.

Examples?

I equally loathe the dimishment of my sisters in Christ by any man or woman. IMO, feminism has far more diminished women by denying that the worth of women is relative to men.

The only person I see diminishing women here are those who claim that women are "weaker vessels".
Ringo

 

[Brad2009]

That was a great post. Thanks for that.

happy to sis

 

[leothelioness]

Of course, claims that women are the "weaker vessel" are coming from some of the men in this thread - not the women. I'd be willing to bet that those men would change their minds about women being "weaker vessels" if they experienced pregnancy and labor first hand.

I don't know what is meant by "weaker vessel" (does the Bible even use that terminology?), but I do agree that we are physically weaker than men. However, mentally, emotionally and spiritually I believe we are the same.

One thing I have noticed is that where men are physically strong, women are mentally and emotionally strong. One's strengths make up for the other's weaknesses. It's amazing how God designed it.

 

[Ringo84]

"weaker vessel" (does the Bible even use that terminology?)

It does, but the Bible was, after all, written in a time when women were not very well appreciated for their work.

but I do agree that we are physically weaker than men.

I would disagree. I still cite menstruation, pregnancy and labor as evidence that women are actually stronger than men in some ways.

However, mentally, emotionally and spiritually I believe we are the same.

Agreed.

One thing I have noticed is that where men are physically strong, women are mentally and emotionally strong. One's strengths make up for the other's weaknesses. It's amazing how God designed it.

EXACTLY. Where men are weaker in some areas, women are strong in those same areas. Where women are weaker in some areas, men are strong in those areas. The reason the Bible says that men and women are a "perfect fit" is that their strengths are complementary. It's common sense.

I proposed this idea earlier in the thread. It was dismissed as "unbiblical" and "secular".
Ringo

 

[Brad2009]

.

 

[Brad2009]

I would disagree. I still cite menstruation, pregnancy and labor as evidence that women are actually stronger than men in some ways.

ufff. a higher pain threshold does not make women better at building houses, esp. w/o modern technology (QED). I think the bent of scripture very much reflects the time period - after all, (esp. to the mind of the 33-200 AD man) building the house in the first place is more important than its upkeep, yes? This may well have inspired Paul's writing to not hold women in distain simply because their physical capacity for work was lesser - and to remember that women's spirtual/mental capacity renders them co-heirs to the kingdom of heaven. In fact, why do you think he includes the verse about childbirth, if not to put the proper perspective on the relationship between men and women?

Its still true, in a way, today. There are awful jobs out there that men are just better suited to - jobs that I don't want to do (although I have whilst getting my education), that are critical to society. That a marginalized lower class exists today should be to the shame of our 'christian' nation. Lets stop with the politiics. Its not going to be right until man's self-rule is abolished by the true and righteous king, Jesus the Christ.

I also don't concede women's mental superiority. We've got the same neuron density, ok? Actually, it only supports the headship of men to examine the science behind it. Men are simpler - we can only support 1 or 2 'tracks'. We only think about a few things at one time, whereas women think about multiple things at one time. Its not that women are supierior mentally, its just that their very nature is different. To borrow an analogy from computer science, women are better at multi-tasking, men are better at brute processing. Thus, it is appropriate to trust the judgement of the 'processor' which has examined the issue at extreme depth in an issue of imporance, rather than the 'processor' which has been devoted to many tasks over the same time period. More iterations have been devoted to the singular issue, and thus the depth (although not necessarily well articulated) is greater. That's why its so dang perfect. Women and men just go together soooooooooooo dang good. The whole is way greater than the sum of the parts.

 

[Ringo84]

ufff. a higher pain threshold does not make women better at building houses, esp. w/o modern technology (QED).

I'm talking about more than a higher pain threshold. Enduring pregnancy and labor takes a lot of strength that men don't have. Weren't you the one who told us that the upkeep of a house is hard work that requires intestinal fortitude?

I think the bent of scripture very much reflects the time period

I agree. That's why we see women disproportionately asked to submit when two-way accountability and submission happens in all marriages.

his may well have inspired Paul's writing to not hold women in distain simply because their physical capacity for work was lesser

Again: I thought you just finished telling us that it takes a lot of work and effort to maintain a house.

In fact, why do you think he includes the verse about childbirth, if not to put the proper perspective on the relationship between men and women?

I don't know. What is the point you're trying to make with the "saved by childbirth" argument?
Ringo

 

[Brad2009]

dude, if you're just going to take stuff out of context, why debate you?

 

[Brad2009]

I'm talking about more than a higher pain threshold. Enduring pregnancy and labor takes a lot of strength that men don't have.

Despite your protests, that is exactly what you're saying, ok? If we can't agree on what words mean, whats the point?

 

[MrJG]

Of course, claims that women are the "weaker vessel" are coming from some of the men in this thread - not the women. I'd be willing to bet that those men would change their minds about women being "weaker vessels" if they experienced pregnancy and labor first hand.

When you add up all the work women face at home with pregnancy, labor, menstruation and menopause, women begin to seem less and less like the "weaker vessel". One has to have a strong constitution to endure all of that.

Why do you insist on using this example? This is a horrible example because men can't experience these things. We don't know if men could bear these or not, so to cite this as reason for women not being the "weaker vessel" is not a good example.