Baptism

[LoveGodsWord]

Obedience to everything that he commanded? That sounds like we have to do something. That sounds very legalistic.

How is it legalistic if one does something because they love God? What is your definition of legalistic?

 

[HARK!]

It is not a ritual as a ritual is a repetitive action or behavior. Baptism is done once as a commandment from God and is an outward testimony that one has chosen to believe and follow God's Word and walk in newness of life and to die to the sinful life.

It looks to me like a ritual and a ceremony are about the same thing.

rit·u·al
/ˈriCH(o͞o)əl/
noun

1. a religious or solemn ceremony consisting of a series of actions performed according to a prescribed order:

I've heard people say that the ceremonial law was nailed to the cross.

So why do this ceremony?

 

[HARK!]

How is it legalistic if one does something because they love God? What is your definition of legalistic?

Legalistic is an English word derived from the English word law.

The Hebrew word translated as Law, is Torah. The Hebrew word Torah can be better understood as instruction, or closer yet, direction. So why do we need to follow instructions if we have faith?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Ritual is not a word used in the bible HARK! As posted previously a ritual is a repetitive action or behavior. Baptism is done once as a commandment from God and is an outward testimony and witness that one has chosen to love God and to believe and follow God's Word and dedicated their life to God to walk in newness of life and to die to the sinful life. Do a topical word study on "baptism" it is a commandment of JESUS to believers in the new covenant *Matthew 28:19. Read also Romans 6:1-23 as posted earlier to see what it represents. These are first principals of God's Word and the very beginning of a new life in Christ. Faith is demonstrated by following God's instructions. You still did not provide your definition of legalistic. Why would you think Baptism is legalistic to those who love God and believe and follow God's Word?

 

[HARK!]

Ritual is not a word used in the bible HARK!

Is ceremonial in there? I hear many Christians use these words these words interchangeably concerning instructions that were purportedly nailed to the cross.

 

[HARK!]

Baptism is done once as a commandment from God and is an outward testimony that one has chosen to love God and to believe and follow God's Word and walk in newness of life and to die to the sinful life.

Would that be considered a ceremonial action? Would it be considered an instruction? I've been told that those were nailed to the cross.

 

[HARK!]

Faith is demonstrated by following God's instructions.

I've been told that the instructions were nailed to the cross.

 

[HARK!]

You still did not provide your definition of legalistic.

Yes I did.

Here it is again:

Legalistic is an English word constructed from the English word law.

The Hebrew word translated as Law, is Torah. The Hebrew word Torah can be better understood as instruction, or closer yet, direction. So why do we need to follow directions; if we have faith?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Is ceremonial in there? I hear many Christians use these words these words interchangeably concerning instructions that were purportedly nailed to the cross.

Yes the Greek word used for "ordinance" in Colossians 2:14 that your referring to is G1378 δόγμα "dogma" and means a "civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical law.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Yes I did.

Here it is again:

Legalistic is an English word constructed from the English word law.

The Hebrew word translated as Law, is Torah. The Hebrew word Torah can be better understood as instruction, or closer yet, direction. So why do we need to follow directions; if we have faith?

That is not a definition of legalistic

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I've been told that the instructions were nailed to the cross.

You have been told wrong. Read Colossians 2:14

 

[HARK!]

Yes the Greek word used for "ordinance" in Colossians 2:14 that your referring to is G1378 δόγμα "dogma" and means a "civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical law.

Not by definition:

Definition of dogma
1a : something held as an established opinion especially : a definite authoritative tenet
b : a code of such tenets pedagogical dogma
c : a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds
2 : a doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed by a church

Definition of DOGMA

 

[HARK!]

You have been told wrong. Read Colossians 2:14

So you reject the dogma which states that it was the Torah that was nailed to the cross?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Not by definition:

Definition of dogma
1a : something held as an established opinion especially : a definite authoritative tenet
b : a code of such tenets pedagogical dogma
c : a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds
2 : a doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed by a church

Definition of DOGMA

Not according to the Koine Greek.

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - G1378

δόγμα; dogma dog'-mah
From the base of G1380; a law that is civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical: - decree, ordinance.

Concise Dictionary of the Greek Words and the Hebrew Bible

1378. δόγμα dŏgma, dog´-mah; from the base of 1380; a law civil, ceremonial . or ecclesiastical.:—decree, ordinance.

Strong, J. (2009). A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible (Vol. 1, p. 24). Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software.

Bauer, Danker, Arndt, and Gingrich (BDAG)

δόγμα, ατος, τό (s. δογματίζω, δοκέω; X., Pla.+; loanw. in rabb.).
① a formal statement concerning rules or regulations that are to be observed
ⓐ of formalized sets of rules ordinance, decision, command (Pla., Rep. 3, 414b; Demosth. 25, 16; Plut., Mor. 742d; Da 3:10; 4:6; 6:13 Theod. al.; Mel., HE 4, 26, 5; Did., Gen. 221, 20) Hb 11:23 v.l. Of the rules or commandments of Jesus B 1:6; IMg 13:1; of the gospel D 11:3; of the apostles Ac 16:4 (cp. the Christian prayer in CSchmidt, GHeinrici Festschr. 1914, p. 71, 24). τριῶν γραμμάτων δόγματα λαμβάνειν receive instructions from three letters (of the alphabet) B 9:7; cp. 10:1, 9f. Of the Mosaic law (3 Macc 1:3; Philo, Gig. 52, Leg. All. 1, 54; 55 διατήρησις τ. ἁγίων δογμάτων; Jos., C. Ap. 1, 42) νόμος τῶν ἐντολῶν ἐν δ. law of commandments consisting in (single) ordinances Eph 2:15. τὸ καθʼ ἡμῶν χειρόγραφον τοῖς δ. the bond that stood against us, w. its requirements Col 2:14.
ⓑ of an imperial declaration (SEG IX, 8) decree (Jos., Bell. 1, 393; PFay 20, 22 a δ. of Alex. Severus) ἐξῆλθεν δ. (cp. Da 2:13 Theod.) παρὰ Καίσαρος Lk 2:1. ἀπέναντι τῶν δογμάτων Καίσαρος πράττειν act contrary to the decrees of Caesar Ac 17:7 (EJudge, The Decrees of Caesar at Thessalonica: Reformed Theological Review 30, ’71, 1–7).
② something that is taught as an established tenet or statement of belief, doctrine, dogma (Pla. et al.; Plut., Mor. 14e; 779b; 1000d; Epict. 4, 11, 8; Herodian 1, 2, 4; Philo, Spec. Leg. 1, 269; Jos., Bell. 2, 142; apolog.; Theoph. Ant. 3, 3 [p. 210, 4]; ἡμέτερον δόγμα [=the Gospel] Orig., C. Cels. 2, 4, 20) of philosophical position δ. ἀνθρώπινον Dg 5:3. Of false prophets δ. ποικίλα τῆς ἀπωλείας διδάσκειν teach various doctrines that lead to perdition ApcPt 1 (Diod S 1, 86, 2 of relig. teaching [about the sacred animals of the Egyptians]). τὰ τοῦ πονηροῦ … δόγματα AcPlCor 2:2.—RAC III 1257–60; IV 1–24; Ferguson, Legal Terms, 47–49; Mason 39; Sherk, lit. on senatorial decrees p. 2f.—M-M. DELG s.v. δοκάω etc. New Docs 4, 146. S. διάταγμα. TW. Sv

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 254). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

Hope this helps.

 

[HARK!]

Not according to the Koine Greek.

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - G1378

δόγμα; dogma dog'-mah
From the base of G1380; a law that is civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical: - decree, ordinance.

Concise Dictionary of the Greek Words and the Hebrew Bible

1378. δόγμα dŏgma, dog´-mah; from the base of 1380; a law civil, ceremonial . or ecclesiastical.:—decree, ordinance.

Strong, J. (2009). A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible (Vol. 1, p. 24). Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software.

BDAG

δόγμα, ατος, τό (s. δογματίζω, δοκέω; X., Pla.+; loanw. in rabb.).
① a formal statement concerning rules or regulations that are to be observed
ⓐ of formalized sets of rules ordinance, decision, command (Pla., Rep. 3, 414b; Demosth. 25, 16; Plut., Mor. 742d; Da 3:10; 4:6; 6:13 Theod. al.; Mel., HE 4, 26, 5; Did., Gen. 221, 20) Hb 11:23 v.l. Of the rules or commandments of Jesus B 1:6; IMg 13:1; of the gospel D 11:3; of the apostles Ac 16:4 (cp. the Christian prayer in CSchmidt, GHeinrici Festschr. 1914, p. 71, 24). τριῶν γραμμάτων δόγματα λαμβάνειν receive instructions from three letters (of the alphabet) B 9:7; cp. 10:1, 9f. Of the Mosaic law (3 Macc 1:3; Philo, Gig. 52, Leg. All. 1, 54; 55 διατήρησις τ. ἁγίων δογμάτων; Jos., C. Ap. 1, 42) νόμος τῶν ἐντολῶν ἐν δ. law of commandments consisting in (single) ordinances Eph 2:15. τὸ καθʼ ἡμῶν χειρόγραφον τοῖς δ. the bond that stood against us, w. its requirements Col 2:14.
ⓑ of an imperial declaration (SEG IX, 8) decree (Jos., Bell. 1, 393; PFay 20, 22 a δ. of Alex. Severus) ἐξῆλθεν δ. (cp. Da 2:13 Theod.) παρὰ Καίσαρος Lk 2:1. ἀπέναντι τῶν δογμάτων Καίσαρος πράττειν act contrary to the decrees of Caesar Ac 17:7 (EJudge, The Decrees of Caesar at Thessalonica: Reformed Theological Review 30, ’71, 1–7).
② something that is taught as an established tenet or statement of belief, doctrine, dogma (Pla. et al.; Plut., Mor. 14e; 779b; 1000d; Epict. 4, 11, 8; Herodian 1, 2, 4; Philo, Spec. Leg. 1, 269; Jos., Bell. 2, 142; apolog.; Theoph. Ant. 3, 3 [p. 210, 4]; ἡμέτερον δόγμα [=the Gospel] Orig., C. Cels. 2, 4, 20) of philosophical position δ. ἀνθρώπινον Dg 5:3. Of false prophets δ. ποικίλα τῆς ἀπωλείας διδάσκειν teach various doctrines that lead to perdition ApcPt 1 (Diod S 1, 86, 2 of relig. teaching [about the sacred animals of the Egyptians]). τὰ τοῦ πονηροῦ … δόγματα AcPlCor 2:2.—RAC III 1257–60; IV 1–24; Ferguson, Legal Terms, 47–49; Mason 39; Sherk, lit. on senatorial decrees p. 2f.—M-M. DELG s.v. δοκάω etc. New Docs 4, 146. S. διάταγμα. TW. Sv

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 254). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

Hope this helps.

You mean not according to Mr. Strong.

δογμασιν
dogmasin
dogma

Since you don't trust Webster to define English; lets see what Thayer's has to say, a more trusted source in the academic community.

STRONGS NT 1378: δόγμα
δόγμα, -τος, τό, (from δοκέω, and equivalent to τὸ δεδογμένον), an opinion, a judgment (Plato, others), doctrine, decree, ordinance;
1. of public decrees (as τῆς πόλεως, Plato, legg. 1, p. 644 d.; of the Roman Senate, [Polybius 6, 13, 2]; Herodian, 7, 10, 8 [5, Bekker edition]): of rulers, Luke 2:1; Acts 17:7; Hebrews 11:23 Lachmann, (Theodotion in Daniel 2:13; Daniel 3:10; Daniel 4:3; Daniel 6:13, etc. — where the Sept. uses other words).
2. of the rules and requirements of the law of Moses, 3 Macc. 1:3; διατήρησις τῶν ἁγίων δογμάτων, Philo, alleg. legg. i., § 16; carrying a suggestion of severity, and of threatened punishment, τὸν νόμον τῶν ἐντολῶν ἐν δόγμασι, the law containing

How about that! The first definition matches Webster's first definition!

Definition of dogma
1a : something held as an established opinion especially : a definite authoritative tenet
b : a code of such tenets pedagogical dogma
c : a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds
2 : a doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed by a church

Definition of DOGMA

Hope this helps.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You mean not according to Mr. Strong.

δογμασιν
dogmasin
dogma

Since you don't trust Webster to define English; lets see what Thayer's has to say, a more trusted source in the academic community.

STRONGS NT 1378: δόγμα
δόγμα, -τος, τό, (from δοκέω, and equivalent to τὸ δεδογμένον), an opinion, a judgment (Plato, others), doctrine, decree, ordinance;
1. of public decrees (as τῆς πόλεως, Plato, legg. 1, p. 644 d.; of the Roman Senate, [Polybius 6, 13, 2]; Herodian, 7, 10, 8 [5, Bekker edition]): of rulers, Luke 2:1; Acts 17:7; Hebrews 11:23 Lachmann, (Theodotion in Daniel 2:13; Daniel 3:10; Daniel 4:3; Daniel 6:13, etc. — where the Sept. uses other words).
2. of the rules and requirements of the law of Moses, 3 Macc. 1:3; διατήρησις τῶν ἁγίων δογμάτων, Philo, alleg. legg. i., § 16; carrying a suggestion of severity, and of threatened punishment, τὸν νόμον τῶν ἐντολῶν ἐν δόγμασι, the law containing

How about that! The first definition matches Webster's first definition!

Definition of dogma
1a : something held as an established opinion especially : a definite authoritative tenet
b : a code of such tenets pedagogical dogma
c : a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds
2 : a doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed by a church

Definition of DOGMA

Hope this helps.

No I posted three separate Greek reference sources to your one in post # 34

1. Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - G1378
2. Concise Dictionary of the Greek Words and the Hebrew Bible
3. Bauer, Danker, Arndt, and Gingrich

How about what? Read your Thayers it match mine as well (Point 2).

If I am being honest with you dear friend, this the strangest conversation I have had with you. I thought your OP topic here is baptism?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

So you reject the dogma which states that it was the Torah that was nailed to the cross?

If your asking do I believe the Torah was nailed to the cross. It depends who does the Torah represent? The Torah represents JESUS. So in a way yes. JESUS represents the lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world *John 1:29. The Sanctuary service and the laws of the sanctuary and Levitical Priesthood and sin offering point to JESUS and God's plan of salvation in the new covenant (see Hebrews 7: Hebrews 8; Hebrews 9 and Hebrews 10). If your asking is Colossians 2:14 talking about God's 10 commandments or the Torah being abolished or the other laws outside of the ceremonial Sanctuary laws for remission of sin? Absolutely not but they were fulfilled in Christ who they point to. Fulfilled does not mean abolished or put to an end but done or completed. What was nailed to the cross was the laws in ordinances that pointed to JESUS as the Savior of the world from the Mosaic book of the law, and the penalty for sin for those who believe and follow God's Word *John 3:16-19.

 

[HARK!]

No I posted three separate Greek reference sources to your one from in post # 34

Well when they have to manufacture definitions of the English word that don't match the commonly used definition of the English word, nor even the Ancient Greek usage of the word for Ancient Greek secular usages; then I can fairly say that I'm willing to take the OPINIONS of these modern day Christian Pharisees, and nail them to the stake.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Well when they have to manufacture definitions of the English word that don't match the commonly used definition of the English word, nor even the Ancient Greek usage of the word for Ancient Greek secular usages; then I can fairly say that I'm willing to take the OPINIONS of these modern day Christian Pharisees, and nail them to the stake.

No dear friend, I posted three separate Koine Greek reference sources to your one in post # 34 from

1. Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - G1378
2. Concise Dictionary of the Greek Words and the Hebrew Bible
3. Bauer, Danker, Arndt, and Gingrich

You of course are free to believe as you wish. Are you ok dear friend? You seem upset and I do not know why, maybe it is best if I leave this discussion?

 

[HARK!]

What was nailed to the cross was the laws in ordinances that pointed to JESUS as the Savior of the world from the Mosaic book of the law,

All of the Torah points to Yahshua.

(CLV) Lk 16:31
Yet he said to him, `If Moses and the prophets they are not hearing, neither will they be persuaded if someone should be rising from among the dead.'"

(CLV) Jn 5:46
For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he writes concerning Me.

(CLV) Jn 5:47
Now if you are not believing his writings, how shall you be believing My declarations?"

Isn't the Sabbath a ceremonial Law. Was the Sabbath nailed to the the cross?