Baptism

[laternonjuror]

Baptism does not save anyone. For a non-believer, baptism is meaningless. For a believer, it is expressing what is already believed. If baptism saved people, we could just baptize everyone and everyone would be saved. The manner of baptism is irrelevant as it is simply and expression of dying with Christ and rising with him in a new life.

Triune Baptism by water and by words, is a means of entering the One,Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and becoming a Member of Christ and a Child of God! Without Baptism I should imagine one would be found wanting! Also, I feel that one has to hold to the Revelation of Christ,and be taught the faith and to receive the Bishop's blessing. (Water,) if a Child is baptised the God parent makes promises on the Child's behalf!

 

[Kirsten]

Triune Baptism by water and by words, is a means of entering the One,Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and becoming a Member of Christ and a Child of God! Without Baptism I should imagine one would be found wanting! Also, I feel that one has to hold to the Revelation of Christ,and be taught the faith and to receive the Bishop's blessing. (Water,) if a Child is baptised the God parent makes promises on the Child's behalf!

Nothing of what you have stated comes from Scripture.

 

[laternonjuror]

Nothing of what you have stated comes from Scripture.

However, it does come from Holy Tradition and the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church of the first thousand years! The Body of Christ and Him Crucified!
As an Traditional Anglican, it is enough for me!

 

[Kirsten]

However, it does come from Holy Tradition and the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church of the first thousand years! The Body of Christ and Him Crucified!
As an Traditional Anglican, it is enough for me!

As a Christian, I adhere to no religions of man because Jesus already fulfilled the law through His death and resurrection. Jesus eliminated the need for a religion, thus, all religions are man-made. Read Galatians 3. This clears it up very well.

 

[KimT]

Baptism does not save anyone. For a non-believer, baptism is meaningless. For a believer, it is expressing what is already believed. If baptism saved people, we could just baptize everyone and everyone would be saved. The manner of baptism is irrelevant as it is simply and expression of dying with Christ and rising with him in a new life.

It's as simple as this. Spot on.

 

[laternonjuror]

It's as simple as this. Spot on.

I'm pleased for both Kirsten and Kim T,. How-and-ever, as a Traditional Anglican Catholic, my Church holds to the position held by the Greek fathers of the first three centuries. Very rightly it is the position of the Holy Catholic Church,that private interpretation of scripture is frowned upon. Decisions are to be left to the bishops in Council.

Or is it a question of, for protestants and dissenters of all kinds, that everyman is his own pope!

 

[Kirsten]

I'm pleased for both Kirsten and Kim T,. How-and-ever, as a Traditional Anglican Catholic, my Church holds to the position held by the Greek fathers of the first three centuries. Very rightly it is the position of the Holy Catholic Church,that private interpretation of scripture is frowned upon. Decisions are to be left to the bishops in Council.

Or is it a question of, for protestants and dissenters of all kinds, that everyman is his own pope!

For clarification, I am not a protestant. Protestantism is an offshoot of Catholicism. I am a born-again Christian, period. That being said, I do not acknowledge a "pope" or "vicar" of Christ. I have a direct relationship with God through the ACTUAL Christ. Further, I do not have a difficult time understanding what is clear in Scripture.

Read Galatians 3. This makes everything quite clear how Jesus eliminated the need for religion, "the law". Christians are not judged by the law. We do not adhere to "religion". Religion, aka the law, does not save.

 

[KimT]

I believe that I have direct access to God through Christ. My belief is based on the Bible and how the early Church operated. I was raised as a Roman Catholic and attended Catholic school through 8th grade. We were not encouraged to read the Bible and the Mass was in Latin at that time. I didn't know Christ. I entered into a relationship with Christ when I watched the teachings of Charles Stanley and a friend encouraged me to read the scriptures and see what Jesus actually said and did. I am not a slave to the law or to any rituals man created. Yes, I do my best not to sin, but only by the blood of Jesus Christ and his gift of salvation will I end up in Heaven. May you all be blessed by the peace of Our Lord, Jesus Christ.

 

[Albion]

I'm pleased for both Kirsten and Kim T,. How-and-ever, as a Traditional Anglican Catholic, my Church holds to the position held by the Greek fathers of the first three centuries. Very rightly it is the position of the Holy Catholic Church,that private interpretation of scripture is frowned upon. Decisions are to be left to the bishops in Council.

Or is it a question of, for protestants and dissenters of all kinds, that everyman is his own pope!

Oh, please don't dust off that favorite of Roman Catholics to be used against your church as well as every other "non-Catholic." It's so "schoolyard," you know

 

[laternonjuror]

I believe that I have direct access to God through Christ. My belief is based on the Bible and how the early Church operated. I was raised as a Roman Catholic and attended Catholic school through 8th grade. We were not encouraged to read the Bible and the Mass was in Latin at that time. I didn't know Christ. I entered into a relationship with Christ when I watched the teachings of Charles Stanley and a friend encouraged me to read the scriptures and see what Jesus actually said and did. I am not a slave to the law or to any rituals man created. Yes, I do my best not to sin, but only by the blood of Jesus Christ and his gift of salvation will I end up in Heaven. May you all be blessed by the peace of Our Lord, Jesus Christ.

Whatever you say! Howandever, I believe in Traditional Anglican teaching and feel quite confident in this attitude. You are welcome to your beliefs and I wish you luck!

 

[KimT]

Whatever you say! Howandever, I believe in Traditional Anglican teaching and feel quite confident in this attitude. You are welcome to your beliefs and I wish you luck!

I wish you blessings and peace.

 

[briquest]

Baptism Is Immersion. Our word "baptize" is translated from the original Greek word "baptizo", which means to immerse. "Baptizo" does not mean sprinkle or pour. If our Lord had wanted people to be sprinkled, he would have inspired the New Testament writers to use the Greek word "rhantizo"

Acts 2:41 King James Version (KJV)
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

King James Version (KJV)
by Public Domain

1 peter 3:21
21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

Obedience To The Gospel

After Jesus had died for our sins, was resurrected and just before he ascended into heaven, he commanded his apostles in Mark 16:15-16, "And he said to them, Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."

1 THESSALONIANS 1:8
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

 

[Albion]

Baptism Is Immersion. Our word "baptize" is translated from the original Greek word "baptizo", which means to immerse. "Baptizo" does not mean sprinkle or pour.

But it does mean dip and/or wash--which may be even more directly related to the meaning and administration of the sacrament--so that old argument (which is a favorite only of Baptists and churches related to them) really doesn't need to be retread once again and presented as if no one has heard it before.

If our Lord had wanted people to be sprinkled, he would have inspired the New Testament writers to use the Greek word "rhantizo"

And if sprinkling were the usual way that most churches baptize this might possibly mean something to the discussion. But few of them do...so it doesn't.

Of course I recognize that it's a word that sounds funny and conjures up a scene that opponents think looks silly, so that's what they all say, even though it's not the way most of the rest of Christianity administers the sacrament.

 

[fatherjimparker]

<<Do we need to be baptized in order to be saved?>>

I'd say "yes" and qualify that response with, "if at all possible."

Consider:

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless
one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of
water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that
just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even
so we also should walk in newness of life.

In Baptism there is the end of an old life and a resurrection to new life. That is being "born again of water."

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized
in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall
receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

And that is being born of the Spirit.

<<And if so, should that ordinance be carried out by complete immersion in water only?>>

If possible. That was what the word originally meant.

<<Who can qualify to be baptized? What does the Bible have to say about all this?>>

Those who have repented. (Acts 2:38 again)

So the thief on the cross was saved but not baptized in water as it was not a possibility. The Church considers that he was baptized in his own blood.

Jesus personally commanded that believers be baptized in the name of the Trinity.

Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Should a Christian obey Christ?

 

[Tigger45]

<<Do we need to be baptized in order to be saved?>>

I'd say "yes" and qualify that response with, "if at all possible."

Consider:

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless
one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of
water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that
just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even
so we also should walk in newness of life.

In Baptism there is the end of an old life and a resurrection to new life. That is being "born again of water."

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized
in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall
receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

And that is being born of the Spirit.

<<And if so, should that ordinance be carried out by complete immersion in water only?>>

If possible. That was what the word originally meant.

<<Who can qualify to be baptized? What does the Bible have to say about all this?>>

Those who have repented. (Acts 2:38 again)

So the thief on the cross was saved but not baptized in water as it was not a possibility. The Church considers that he was baptized in his own blood.

Jesus personally commanded that believers be baptized in the name of the Trinity.

Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Should a Christian obey Christ?

Well there ya go Father. Using the simple rendering of scripture to express it's practices

 

[jacobs well]

<<Do we need to be baptized in order to be saved?>>

I'd say "yes" and qualify that response with, "if at all possible."

Consider:

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless
one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of
water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that
just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even
so we also should walk in newness of life.

In Baptism there is the end of an old life and a resurrection to new life. That is being "born again of water."

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized
in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall
receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

And that is being born of the Spirit.

<<And if so, should that ordinance be carried out by complete immersion in water only?>>

If possible. That was what the word originally meant.

<<Who can qualify to be baptized? What does the Bible have to say about all this?>>

Those who have repented. (Acts 2:38 again)

So the thief on the cross was saved but not baptized in water as it was not a possibility. The Church considers that he was baptized in his own blood.

Jesus personally commanded that believers be baptized in the name of the Trinity.

Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Should a Christian obey Christ?

In john 3:6- Jesus explains " That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit"
Jesus describes in words, the two kinds of births. Birth " of the flesh " is the kind of birth Nicodemus had in mind.
Those born that way are flesh, Jesus said. And He said those who experience the second birth-"born of the Spirit"-
are spirit.
Now are we flesh, or not? Yes.
Once we have been born of the Spirit-the kind necessary to see and enter the Kingdom of God-then we are spirit.
Jesus was speaking of a literal change of bodily composition-the same change Paul spoke of in 1 Cor 15:50-52
In John 3:7,8 Jesus is explaining what the nature of those will be who experience the new birth.
It is a case of natural flesh and blood body vs. a spiritual body especially when Jesus uses the " wind ' analogy.
After baptism and the laying on of hands we are only at the begettal stage, still human but impregnated with the Holy Spirit in us -begotten, but not yet born. Our new spiritual life has begun or has been fathered but not yet emerged from the womb-fathering of a child takes place before birth.
The entire conversion process concerns the transformation that-through Christ and the indwelling of the Holy spirit-makes in us. The final aspect of our transformation will occur at the resurrection of the dead when Jesus returns-this event completes the process of salvation. Then, and only then will we be " born again " as spiritual beings and able to enter the Kingdom of God.

 

[Hawkiz]

As a Christian, I adhere to no religions of man because Jesus already fulfilled the law through His death and resurrection. Jesus eliminated the need for a religion, thus, all religions are man-made. Read Galatians 3. This clears it up very well.

Did He 'eliminate the need for religion'?
Acts 9:3-5 doesn't seem to agree with you. Saul was persecuting what? The Church. The people of God. And WHY was he persecuting them? Because of their religion. So to say that religion has been eliminated by Jesus, even with you Galations 3 reference, contradicts what Scripture says.
What do 'religions' do? They gather people together to worship. I won't put words in your mouth, but to say that 'religion' was abolished is akin to saying that worship was also abolished, and Scripture clearly doesn't provide for worship to be eliminated.
Not to mention that your personal concept of religion is itself a very 'man-made' idea...made by you.

Peace in Christ

 

[fatherjimparker]

<<Once we have been born of the Spirit-the kind necessary to see and enter the Kingdom of God-then we are spirit.>>

That certainly did not seem to be the case the last time I stubbed my toe.

<<After baptism and the laying on of hands we are only at the begettal stage, still human but impregnated with the Holy Spirit in us -begotten, but not yet born.>>

Paul said that, in baptism, we are buried in Christ's death and are raised from death to new life. That is not "begettal"; that is a death, the end of the old life, and a birth into the new life in Christ.

Death is not a "begettal" into new life. It is the end of life, not the beginning of a new life. In order to rise from that death we must be born again.

<<The final aspect of our transformation will occur at the resurrection of the dead when Jesus returns-this event completes the process of salvation.>>

All of humanity, both the believer and the unbeliever, will be raised imperishable and immortal. When Christ rose from the dead, He destroyed to power of death to hold mankind and destroy the image of God which is man. Therefore, since those who did not believe are not saved, but still will be given an immortal and imperishable body, that transformation cannot be an aspect of being "born again."

The transformation of the body of the believer is the entering into the final stage (as far as we know) of life in Christ. It is also the final stage (as far as we know) of the lost who will spend eternity separated from Christ.

However, we die with Christ and are born again at baptism. Baptism is the beginning of our life in Christ.

Rom 6:4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death,
so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father,
we too might walk in newness of life.

Col 2:12-13 ... you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were
also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised
him from the dead. And you, who were dead in trespasses and the
uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, ...

At that point we are "newborn babes" in Christ, just beginning our new life in Christ, which is why Paul tells us:

Eph 4:11-14a And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some
prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the
saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,
until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the
Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the
fulness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children,

So, at baptism, a believer is born again as "new-born" in Christ who then begins a journey to maturity in Christ with the goal of arriving at "mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ."

 

[jacobs well]

<<Once we have been born of the Spirit-the kind necessary to see and enter the Kingdom of God-then we are spirit.>>

That certainly did not seem to be the case the last time I stubbed my toe.

<<After baptism and the laying on of hands we are only at the begettal stage, still human but impregnated with the Holy Spirit in us -begotten, but not yet born.>>

Paul said that, in baptism, we are buried in Christ's death and are raised from death to new life. That is not "begettal"; that is a death, the end of the old life, and a birth into the new life in Christ.

Death is not a "begettal" into new life. It is the end of life, not the beginning of a new life. In order to rise from that death we must be born again.

<<The final aspect of our transformation will occur at the resurrection of the dead when Jesus returns-this event completes the process of salvation.>>

All of humanity, both the believer and the unbeliever, will be raised imperishable and immortal. When Christ rose from the dead, He destroyed to power of death to hold mankind and destroy the image of God which is man. Therefore, since those who did not believe are not saved, but still will be given an immortal and imperishable body, that transformation cannot be an aspect of being "born again."

The transformation of the body of the believer is the entering into the final stage (as far as we know) of life in Christ. It is also the final stage (as far as we know) of the lost who will spend eternity separated from Christ.

However, we die with Christ and are born again at baptism. Baptism is the beginning of our life in Christ.

Rom 6:4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death,
so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father,
we too might walk in newness of life.

Col 2:12-13 ... you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were
also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised
him from the dead. And you, who were dead in trespasses and the
uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, ...

At that point we are "newborn babes" in Christ, just beginning our new life in Christ, which is why Paul tells us:

Eph 4:11-14a And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some
prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the
saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,
until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the
Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the
fulness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children,

So, at baptism, a believer is born again as "new-born" in Christ who then begins a journey to maturity in Christ with the goal of arriving at "mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ."

You stubbed your toe because you are not born of the spirit yet-you are still flesh and blood.

You are right the watery grave symbolizes the death of our former life of sinning. As Christ was resurrected, our coming out of the grave-rising out of the baptismal waters-pictures our new, converted, Spirit led life.
The reference to begettal does not pertain to the symbolic death of a person at the beginning of the process of baptism but rather to the conversion aspect of our new life of spiritual growth.
God is now transforming our lives through the power of the His Spirit on a daily basis.
Analogies are used in the bible regarding specific phases of the salvation process.
The analogy of a " new creature " by Paul and " a new man" is used to describe the converted person.
we are not literally a new man but there has been a definite transformation that takes place which makes us spiritually a new person.

I have to disagree with your understanding of who will be saved and given immortality in the end time.
It contradicts everything in Revelation 20.
the second death, eternal condemnation, will exact its penalty at that time to those who still resist and are not in the Book of Life.
Gennao is used metaphorically in John 3 to refer to the divine origin of our new life in Christ and then engendered from above to establish a Father/son relationship with us.

The fetal analogy helps us to understand the salvation course that takes place from the time of baptism to the time that a Christian will be resurrected as a spirit being-similar to the conception that occurs when a new human life begins and its physical growth and development ending after the 9 month gestation period by being born into their family-in our case the family of God.

 

[Albion]

You stubbed your toe because you are not born of the spirit yet-you are still flesh and blood.

You are right the watery grave symbolizes the death of our former life of sinning. As Christ was resurrected, our coming out of the grave-rising out of the baptismal waters-pictures our new, converted, Spirit led life.
The reference to begettal does not pertain to the symbolic death of a person at the beginning of the process of baptism but rather to the conversion aspect of our new life of spiritual growth.
God is now transforming our lives through the power of the His Spirit on a daily basis.
Analogies are used in the bible regarding specific phases of the salvation process.
The analogy of a " new creature " by Paul and " a new man" is used to describe the converted person.
we are not literally a new man but there has been a definite transformation that takes place which makes us spiritually a new person.

I have to disagree with your understanding of who will be saved and given immortality in the end time.
It contradicts everything in Revelation 20.
the second death, eternal condemnation, will exact its penalty at that time to those who still resist and are not in the Book of Life.
Gennao is used metaphorically in John 3 to refer to the divine origin of our new life in Christ and then engendered from above to establish a Father/son relationship with us.

The fetal analogy helps us to understand the salvation course that takes place from the time of baptism to the time that a Christian will be resurrected as a spirit being-similar to the conception that occurs when a new human life begins and its physical growth and development ending after the 9 month gestation period by being born into their family-in our case the family of God.

IS THERE a church that's in accord with and teaches the ideas you're advancing here?