Baptism to be Saved?

[steve_bakr]

This discussion on baptism and salvation has raged on and on and always will. Being raised a Roman Catholic now being a Spirit-filled Christian, going to Bible School and Pastoring for 30 years, the issue comes down to ONE thing and One thing only. Jesus said that the only to be saved is being Born Again, (Jn 3:3). Any discussion about salvation that is not centered on this truth is baseless.

Born again=Having one's soul washed clean by the power of the Holy Spirit through the blood of Christ. Becoming a new creature. Renewal. Baptism.

 

[Jeffersonian]

Acts 16:30-31
English Standard Version (ESV)
30Then he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

And Mark 16:16 is unclear?

I only have to point to the thief on the cross. The thief merely believed and Jesus promised him that he would be in paradise with him.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"Doesn't the bible say that no man will enter into the kingdom of God unless he is baptised as a little baby."

NO!!!! The Bible says no such thing.

It DOES say: Mark 10:14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

What's being addressed is the "Open" and "simple faith" that a Child can have - trusting without reservation.

It has NOTHING to do with "baptism" whatsoever, nor does the Bible even HINT that Babies should be baptized, since Baptism is indicated FOR BELIEVERS ONLY.

I have no idea why there' wasn't an "Easy Answer" to your question, which isn't a difficult one at all.

 

[GarrickBrewer]

I was baptized this summer as part of the assemblies of God and one of the things they make clear to you is what baptism really is. Baptism itself does not save you. ONLY JESUS CHRIST can save you. Baptism is an OUTWARD SHOWING to the people of the church that you have accepted Jesus as your savior and have chosen to die and be reborn in his name. and is done by total immersion in water, just like the way Jesus was baptized.

 

[pdehart]

Well said.

 

[GarrickBrewer]

Thank you

 

[Panevino]

"Doesn't the bible say that no man will enter into the kingdom of God unless he is baptised as a little baby."

NO!!!! The Bible says no such thing.

agree

It DOES say: Mark 10:14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

What's being addressed is the "Open" and "simple faith" that a Child can have - trusting without reservation.

agree but that is not all that is said ie:". Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not..."

It has NOTHING to do with "baptism" whatsoever,

how can we let children "come unto" him? How can we forbid them?

nor does the Bible even HINT that Babies should be baptized, since Baptism is indicated FOR BELIEVERS ONLY.

Luke 18:15 And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when [his] disciples saw [it], they rebuked them16 But Jesus called them [unto him], and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.


A hint

Acts 2: 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Luke2:heard and seen, as it was told unto them. 21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb......27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,


Col2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Trough the faith of the operation of God

I have no idea why there' wasn't an "Easy Answer" to your question, which isn't a difficult one at all.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I was baptized this summer as part of the assemblies of God and one of the things they make clear to you is what baptism really is. Baptism itself does not save you. ONLY JESUS CHRIST can save you. Baptism is an OUTWARD SHOWING to the people of the church that you have accepted Jesus as your savior and have chosen to die and be reborn in his name. and is done by total immersion in water, just like the way Jesus was baptized.

Firstly, let me congratulate you on receiving Holy Baptism.

Secondly, however, let me carefully point out something: No where does Scripture say that Baptism is an "outward showing" for the people of the church. Rather consistently the New Testament points to Baptism as God's means of uniting us to His Son and bringing us into the household of faith.

To phrase it another way, Baptism isn't something we do for God or for the Church, instead Baptism is something God does for us. Baptism isn't simply a funny religious ritual, there's an actual reason for it and for why Christ has given it to us.

Baptism isn't a human work, it's a God work. Baptism is God's grace for us.

I say this, not to confuse you as I know your church teaches differently, but I really want to help offer you the traditional Christian understanding--this is what Christians believed for two thousand years and what most still believe today. It's also, we fervently argue, what is explicitly taught in the Bible. We baptize because God has promised that through Baptism He will forgive us our sins, unite us to Jesus, and make us righteous before Himself--and this is His grace alone.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[miamited]

Hi rl7,

You wrote: Many Catholics believe one must be water baptized to be saved. Why is this when there's no scripture that say this?

I haven't read all of the responses so this may well have already been covered, but what you state here is not true. Both Jesus and Peter tied baptism to our salvation.

Mark 16:16
Acts 2:38

Now, Peter says that this baptism will bring them the Holy Spirit, but I'm confident that any born again believer will affirm that without the Holy Spirit new birth, there is no salvation.

John 3:5

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[miamited]

As to your examples:

A: there is no hard evidence that the thief on the cross was not baptized. Both John the baptist and the disciples spent time baptizing people all over Israel. I had this discussion with a pastor friend of mine and I pointed out that there seems to be evidence that the thief certianly knew something about Jesus before his death. He tells the other thief, 'Don't you fear God? We deserve the punishment for our crimes, but this man has done nothing wrong.' How did he know that if he hadn't had some knowledge of Jesus before that moment? We have no account that Jesus was declaring his righteousness while he was on the cross. No indication that this thief had spent any time with Jesus while awaiting his own execution. No account that as they made their way to Golgotha that Jesus had preached the gospel to him. How did he know that Jesus had not sinned and was deserving of death? I'm sure that even if Jesus had been proclaiming his righteousness as he was led to the cross the thief would have considered that as the same cries of every man who is facing a death penalty for wrongs. We all, if we were to find ourselves in such a position as facing death for some crime, are prone to try to convince others that we are being sentenced unfairly. We don't deserve to die!

No, I'm confident that there is a strong possibility that the thief had been baptized at some point in his life and would have therefore had to make a proclamation of Jesus as Lord. However, he was human, and in the beginning of his sufferings he joined in with the other thief hurling insults upon his Lord, but because he may well have been baptized, the indwelling Holy Spirit quickly gave him the insight and wisdom to repent and declare again, Jesus is Lord.

Another issue which may have bearing on the thiefs lack of baptism, but still recieving the promises of God, is that he died before the new covenant was consummated. He was surely a Jew. After all, he was living in Jerusalem. He may well have been saved under the old covenant which did not require baptism, but rather circumcision.

As regards Peter and his confession of faith. Peter was baptized. The Scriptures account that all of the disciples went out with Jesus and were baptized.

John 3:22

This same place in the Scriptures confirms that 'people were constantly coming to John the baptist to be baptized'. So, I'm not fully confirmed that the thief wasn't baptized and either/or becomes moot as we read Mark 16:16.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[miamited]

Hi pk,

Why do you find Mark 16:16 unclear? It would seem fairly straight forward to me.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[steve_bakr]

Firstly, let me congratulate you on receiving Holy Baptism.

Secondly, however, let me carefully point out something: No where does Scripture say that Baptism is an "outward showing" for the people of the church. Rather consistently the New Testament points to Baptism as God's means of uniting us to His Son and bringing us into the household of faith.

To phrase it another way, Baptism isn't something we do for God or for the Church, instead Baptism is something God does for us. Baptism isn't simply a funny religious ritual, there's an actual reason for it and for why Christ has given it to us.

Baptism isn't a human work, it's a God work. Baptism is God's grace for us.

I say this, not to confuse you as I know your church teaches differently, but I really want to help offer you the traditional Christian understanding--this is what Christians believed for two thousand years and what most still believe today. It's also, we fervently argue, what is explicitly taught in the Bible. We baptize because God has promised that through Baptism He will forgive us our sins, unite us to Jesus, and make us righteous before Himself--and this is His grace alone.

-CryptoLutheran

The Bible does seem to tie Baptism to the grace of salvation, although I like to believe that grace is not restricted to the Sacraments alone. The point I would like to make--whatever side of the argument you are on--by all means get Baptised.

Peace

"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)

 

[ViaCrucis]

The Bible does seem to tie Baptism to the grace of salvation, although I like to believe that grace is not restricted to the Sacraments alone. The point I would like to make--whatever side of the argument you are on--by all means get Baptised.

Peace

"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)

Lutheranism speaks of "Word and Sacrament" as God's Means of Grace. Not as two different things but as one thing. When we talk about Baptism and the Lord's Supper we regard these as Sacraments because of the Word that is present in both. Baptism isn't just water, it is water and the Word, it is God's Word in Baptism that makes it Baptism and makes it efficacious for us; the same about the Eucharist, it is bread and wine with the Word.

It's God's Word, given to us in our hearing, receiving, and eating/drinking that communicates the grace of God to us.

Grace, therefore, isn't found exclusively in the Sacraments, it's found in and wherever the Word of God is found, living and active.

What is crucial, however, is that in all cases we are entirely passive recipients of the Word, and it is always God doing the acting. It is God who is speaking His grace-filled Word to us, who is Christ Himself, which we receive passively; and God therefore saves us. He justifies us by His grace, received through faith which is a gift from God (not of ourselves) which He does through His Word and Sacraments.

Additionally, just because Baptism is God's normative means of creating faith in us and bringing us into His household of faith, justifying us by His grace does not mean that He cannot accomplish this outside of His normative means. We can't place boundaries around God's saving activity, God will do what He will do; and to Him alone be all the glory now and forever.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[steve_bakr]

Lutheranism speaks of "Word and Sacrament" as God's Means of Grace. Not as two different things but as one thing. When we talk about Baptism and the Lord's Supper we regard these as Sacraments because of the Word that is present in both. Baptism isn't just water, it is water and the Word, it is God's Word in Baptism that makes it Baptism and makes it efficacious for us; the same about the Eucharist, it is bread and wine with the Word.

It's God's Word, given to us in our hearing, receiving, and eating/drinking that communicates the grace of God to us.

Grace, therefore, isn't found exclusively in the Sacraments, it's found in and wherever the Word of God is found, living and active.

What is crucial, however, is that in all cases we are entirely passive recipients of the Word, and it is always God doing the acting. It is God who is speaking His grace-filled Word to us, who is Christ Himself, which we receive passively; and God therefore saves us. He justifies us by His grace, received through faith which is a gift from God (not of ourselves) which He does through His Word and Sacraments.

Additionally, just because Baptism is God's normative means of creating faith in us and bringing us into His household of faith, justifying us by His grace does not mean that He cannot accomplish this outside of His normative means. We can't place boundaries around God's saving activity, God will do what He will do; and to Him alone be all the glory now and forever.

-CryptoLutheran

That is a beautiful explanation. Thank you.

Peace

"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)

 

[miamited]

Hi rl7,

And the final example, and I believe most telling, is Jesus' own baptism. He comes to John and requests to be baptized. John is taken aback and says, "I should be baptized by you, and yet you come to me." Jesus replies, read this very carefully and maybe turn it over in your mind a bit and meditate on it, "Let it be so for now. This is to fulfill all righteousness."

What did he mean 'all righteousness'? Being baptized has something to do with righteousness?

And of course, if we claim to be followers of Christ, hence christians, then wouldn't baptism also be part of that 'following'? I believe that there are quite a few examples written in the Scriptures that portray baptism as a little more important than just some symbol or sign to the 'church' of our committment. Surely that wasn't Jesus' purpose for baptism. After all, the church hadn't even been started yet. Who would he have been making a public display to? There had been no teaching from him regarding baptism so who would have even understood it. Why was Jesus baptized if it's only a sign that we choose to follow him. He is him. He surely doesn't have to be baptized to show that he is following himself. To me, that seems fairly illogical, as Spock would have said. Mark 16:16 clearly explains that Jesus ties baptism to salvation, but makes it clear that it is not the baptism alone which saves, but baptism coupled with faith. As for me. Jesus said it and I believe it. I believe one needs to be baptized into the faith, which by the way, is what the anabaptists believed for centuries. This new teaching that baptism is only a sign or symbol is something new and I'm always wary of 'new' teachings. Just says to me that we have this idea that the first disciples didn't get it right, but we've straightened it all out now.

My faith says exactly the opposite and history proves it. When God first lived with Adam and Eve they knew God and the first generations knew God. After all, both Cain and Able made sacrifices to God. However, when we move a few generations out we find that men began to turn from God and follow their own wicked desires. Then God brings the flood. Sure enough as we move a few generations from the flood worship of the one true God becomes again corrupted and men begin to follow their own wicked desires. Then God calls Abraham and supernaturally makes himself known to Abraham. Abraham is faithful, but as we move through Isaac and Jacob we find them less so, and by the time the Israelites come out of Egypt they are again turning their backs on God. God repeatedly refers to his people as stiff-necked and prostitutes and asks them what has He done that they have turned away from Him. All of the prophets are sent to call the wandering Jew back to the faith and even Jesus references that they stoned and killed them.

So, my belief is that the first apostles and disciples have it right and we, just like people always have regarding the things of God, are prostituting ourselves before our God. As far as I'm concerned when I look at what it really means to be a christian, apart from Jesus himself, I look to Paul, Peter, John and the first apostles. I'm not interested in Origen or Athenasias(?) or any of the later 'church fathers'. They didn't walk with Jesus and weren't taught by his own hand. I don't have any idea if what they are telling me is the truth and when it comes to the 'deeper' things of God which everyone scrambles to say, "Well, this is what so-and-so taught about this hard subject.", my response is "so".

Now, I'm certainly willing to listen, but just because it comes with the name of some early church father as it's source, that alone doesn't convince me. After all, if we believe the early church fathers have it right, then we have to agree that annulment of marriage and purgatory and masses and all the various and sundry 'laws' of the catholic church are right. Remember don't eat meat on Friday. That's a sin.

Now, you might say, "Oh, they reversed that sin a long time ago." My response is, yes, they did and that alone shows that the 'rules' of men and thinking of men about what God wants from us may very well be corrupt. Follow God's word and the testimony of His one and only Son. Mark 16:16

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[bjpascoal]

Do I need to be baptized again? I recently left Mormonism and am now a non-denominational Christian.

 

[steve_bakr]

Do I need to be baptized again? I recently left Mormonism and am now a non-denominational Christian.

I believe, yes.

Peace of the Lord be with you.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Do I need to be baptized again? I recently left Mormonism and am now a non-denominational Christian.

Many, if not most, churches will regard Mormon baptism as invalid. It's a tricky area because historically baptism performed by heretics or done in a heretical church is not sufficient to warrant the baptism invalid. However if the baptism itself is heretical then it can be regarded as invalid.

This will ultimately depend on your current church, their beliefs about baptism, and end up being the decision of your pastor or up to the bishop (if your current denomination has an episcopal structure).

What I would continue to insist is simply that we understand that Baptism isn't something we do for God or for the Church, it's something God does for us; this is why even a non-Christian can legally perform baptism since Baptism does not depend on the one doing it, but depends entirely on the promise and word of God.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[arabianhorselover]

This is not at all the way my church, the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, looks at Baptism We baptize infants, and believe that Baptism does save.



quote=GarrickBrewer;58796070]I was baptized this summer as part of the assemblies of God and one of the things they make clear to you is what baptism really is. Baptism itself does not save you. ONLY JESUS CHRIST can save you. Baptism is an OUTWARD SHOWING to the people of the church that you have accepted Jesus as your savior and have chosen to die and be reborn in his name. and is done by total immersion in water, just like the way Jesus was baptized.[/quote]