Baptism to be Saved?

[royallighting7]

Agreed! I believe that baptism is included in Mark 16:16a because it was (and still is) seen as part of the normal process that one goes through immediately after coming to faith in Christ. Our newfound faith results in works of obedience to God, and getting baptized, in most instances, is something that every new Christian should do.

--David

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me,
has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life"
John 5:24​

Agreed!

 

[Yarddog]

Thanks for your reply. To be clear, we're talking about water baptism throughout this whole discussion.

Water baptism is not what you said in the OP. Water baptism is the baptism of John in scripture. For Catholics and most Christians baptism is much more. If you don't understand that, then that is not the Catholic Church fault. Go to your original post, the one that I responded to first, and show me where you said water baptism.

Here is your OP: Baptism to be Saved? Many Catholics believe one must be baptized to be saved. Why is this when there's no scripture that say this? In fact, there have been many instances in scripture where people were saved without baptism (the dying theif, Peter's confession). Are the Catholics who say this saying that Christ's sacrifice isn't enough to save them? If anyone believes this way, can they use scripture to support it?

No sign of water baptism in your post.

No matter how one explains it, its still another work that we do in the service of God. Yes, He's doing something for us while we're being water baptized, but is He also not doing something for us when we do any of the other good works?

Why do we do works for God? Because of faith. If something is not of faith, it is sin. We submit to baptism into the body of Christ because of faith. No matter how you may try to explain it away, if it is not of faith, it is sin.

Romans 14:[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]23 [/FONT] But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because this is not from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.

 

[royallighting7]

Water baptism is not what you said in the OP. Water baptism is the baptism of John in scripture. For Catholics and most Christians baptism is much more. If you don't understand that, then that is the Catholic Church fault. Go to your original post, the one that I responded to first, and show me where you said water baptism.

Here is your OP: Baptism to be Saved? Many Catholics believe one must be baptized to be saved. Why is this when there's no scripture that say this? In fact, there have been many instances in scripture where people were saved without baptism (the dying theif, Peter's confession). Are the Catholics who say this saying that Christ's sacrifice isn't enough to save them? If anyone believes this way, can they use scripture to support it?

No sign of water baptism in your post.

This is why I cleared it up. You seem to have a problem with me clearing it up, yet it was important in order for this discussion to go on.

Why do we do works for God? Because of faith. If something is not of faith, it is sin. We submit to baptism into the body of Christ because of faith. No matter how you may try to explain it away, if it is not of faith, it is sin.

Romans 14:[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]23 [/FONT] But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because this is not from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.

What point are you trying to get across? that baptism is sin unless with faith? that you need to be baptized in order to be saved?

Thanks!

 

[Ryxennesu]

Ok, so this looks like a good place to post a question. About baptism. Doesn't the bible say that no man will enter into the kingdom of God unless he is baptised as a little baby.
I emailed my Pastor & asked him to dedicate my grandbaby. He said he would be happy to. I asked if he also baptised the baby? He said NO! We dedicate the babies to God instead. So I emailed him back & said doesn't the bible say to baptise them as a little baby? He never emailed me back. So I got on the computer & emailed the international church. Who never answered me either. Instead forwarded my question to a college!

Ryxennesu

 

[St_Worm2]

Ok, so this looks like a good place to post a question. About baptism. Doesn't the bible say that no man will enter into the kingdom of God unless he is baptised as a little baby.
I emailed my Pastor & asked him to dedicate my grandbaby. He said he would be happy to. I asked if he also baptised the baby? He said NO! We dedicate the babies to God instead. So I emailed him back & said doesn't the bible say to baptise them as a little baby? He never emailed me back. So I got on the computer & emailed the international church. Who never answered me either. Instead forwarded my question to a college!

Ryxennesu

Hey Ryxennesu, there are no infant baptisms in the Bible, at least none that I can recall.

--David

 

[CryptoLutheran]

Ok, so this looks like a good place to post a question. About baptism. Doesn't the bible say that no man will enter into the kingdom of God unless he is baptised as a little baby.
I emailed my Pastor & asked him to dedicate my grandbaby. He said he would be happy to. I asked if he also baptised the baby? He said NO! We dedicate the babies to God instead. So I emailed him back & said doesn't the bible say to baptise them as a little baby? He never emailed me back. So I got on the computer & emailed the international church. Who never answered me either. Instead forwarded my question to a college!

Ryxennesu

No, Scripture doesn't say one has to be baptized as an infant. However the Church has historically baptized infants because there's no reason to refuse them from the waters of Baptism.

Though since the Reformation some Protestant churches only baptize people after they make a confession of faith later in life.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[CryptoLutheran]

Hey Ryxennesu, there are no infant baptisms in the Bible, at least none that I can recall.

--David

Nothing explicit at least, though when Scripture mentions the baptism of entire households it may or may not include infants and young children; depending on which side of the debate one stands.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[royallighting7]

Ok, so this looks like a good place to post a question. About baptism. Doesn't the bible say that no man will enter into the kingdom of God unless he is baptised as a little baby.
I emailed my Pastor & asked him to dedicate my grandbaby. He said he would be happy to. I asked if he also baptised the baby? He said NO! We dedicate the babies to God instead. So I emailed him back & said doesn't the bible say to baptise them as a little baby? He never emailed me back. So I got on the computer & emailed the international church. Who never answered me either. Instead forwarded my question to a college!

Ryxennesu

No, none that is explictly stated. You may be getting that mixed up with the place where Lord Jesus said that people must become like children in order to enter the Kingdom of God.

 

[Yarddog]

This is why I cleared it up. You seem to have a problem with me clearing it up, yet it was important in order for this discussion to go on.

I responded to the OP and you didn't clear the point with me until your last post. I don't read every post.

What point are you trying to get across?

You said that baptism is a work, like doing any other good work. I explained that we are baptized "into" the body of Christ. If you are not a part of Christ, are you saved?

We are baptized into his death and born into a new life. If you are not part of that new are, are you saved?

that baptism is sin unless with faith?

If no faith exists in the act of baptism then it would be sin.

that you need to be baptized in order to be saved?

It is God that brings us into a new life through baptism, so are you saved if God has not done this?

God Bless,
YD

 

[royallighting7]

I responded to the OP and you didn't clear the point with me until your last post. I don't read every post.

ok

You said that baptism is a work, like doing any other good work. I explained that we are baptized "into" the body of Christ. If you are not a part of Christ, are you saved?

We are baptized into his death and born into a new life. If you are not part of that new are, are you saved?


If no faith exists in the act of baptism then it would be sin.


It is God that brings us into a new life through baptism, so are you saved if God has not done this?

God Bless,
YD

I agree that baptism is a sin without faith.
You're asking me the questions about salvation when I asked you what you think. I believe salvation is through Christ alone and that Christ doesn't need water to save someone, as shown over and over again throughout the gospels. Are you implying by your questions that you do believe that people aren't saved without water baptism?
If so, how do you account for the many people who were saved/had the Spirit of God before water baptism?

 

[Yarddog]

I agree that baptism is a sin without faith.
You're asking me the questions about salvation when I asked you what you think. I believe salvation is through Christ alone and that Christ doesn't need water to save someone, as shown over and over again throughout the gospels. Are you implying by your questions that you do believe that people aren't saved without water baptism?
If so, how do you account for the many people who were saved/had the Spirit of God before water baptism?

What do you consider water baptism is? Your OP made remarks about the Catholic Church and to the Church Baptism isn't just a good work or an outward sign and neither is it in scripture.

Jesus received water baptism from John but he didn't need it since that baptism is for repentance. God then baptized Jesus with the Holy Spirit. Jesus didn't need saving but he needed to be obedient to the Father.

 

[royallighting7]

What do you consider water baptism is? Your OP made remarks about the Catholic Church and to the Church Baptism isn't just a good work or an outward sign and neither is it in scripture.

Jesus received water baptism from John but he didn't need it since that baptism is for repentance. God then baptized Jesus with the Holy Spirit. Jesus didn't need saving but he needed to be obedient to the Father.

Water baptism is an outward sign of what has already happened inwardly. Water baptism doesn't clean sins away, only Christ can do that. He doesn't need water to do that, as shown over again in scripture.

My original post said that many Catholics think that one must be baptized to be saved. I didn't say anything about the Catholic Church.

I know

I keep asking you and instead you ask me questions and telling me stuff. I answer all your questions about what I believe, so once again I'll ask, and if you dont' wanna answer, just tell me instead of blowing the question off: Do you believe that people are not saved without being water baptized?

 

[Yarddog]

Water baptism is an outward sign of what has already happened inwardly. Water baptism doesn't clean sins away, only Christ can do that. He doesn't need water to do that, as shown over again in scripture.

Do you believe that all Christianity has to concede to your incorrect understanding of baptism?

My original post said that many Catholics think that one must be baptized to be saved. I didn't say anything about the Catholic Church.

That is correct and please forgive my error. Yet, almost all Christians, Catholic, Orthodox and Protestants teach the necessity of baptism. Christ cleans our sins through faith and through faith we are baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, just as scripture tells us to do.

Scripture says that we are baptized into the body of Christ and scripture also shows that water baptism is part of that. Scripture does show an instance where a person is saved who does not receive baptism and that is the thief on the cross. The Catholic Church also teaches that and most Catholics know that. It is called the baptism of desire.

I keep asking you and instead you ask me questions and telling me stuff. I answer all your questions about what I believe, so once again I'll ask, and if you dont' wanna answer, just tell me instead of blowing the question off: Do you believe that people are not saved without being water baptized?

I have answered your questions. People can be saved without water baptism but water baptism is what we are called to do by scripture.

 

[royallighting7]

Do you believe that all Christianity has to concede to your incorrect understanding of baptism?

I'm not one to say what all Christians have to believe. No one knows everything, and so none of us can (or at least should) act like arrogant pricks. What all Christians should believe is that Christ, and Christ alone, won and paid for our sins at the cross.

Scripture says that we are baptized into the body of Christ and scripture also shows that water baptism is part of that. Scripture does show an instance where a person is saved who does not receive baptism and that is the thief on the cross. The Catholic Church also teaches that and most Catholics know that. It is called the baptism of desire.

Where is this "baptism of desire" mentioned in the Bible? Did Christ tell the thief he was being given this sort of baptism?
This "baptism of desire" seems like a convenient way to get out of the dying thief (and others) difficulty that one would face if they say that water baptism is necessary for salvation. In fact, I'm glad the dying thief was recorded because it also shows that salvation is not by works.

Of course, Idk everything, so enlighten me.

I have answered your questions. People can be saved without water baptism but water baptism is what we are called to do by scripture.

Yes, we are called to be baptized, but I don't believe that not getting baptized will stop you from going to heaven. Which people get to go to heaven without being baptized?

 

[Yarddog]

I'm not one to say what all Christians have to believe. No one knows everything, and so none of us can (or at least should) act like arrogant pricks. What all Christians should believe is that Christ, and Christ alone, won and paid for our sins at the cross.

I know of no Christian that does not believe that Christ alone won and paid for our sins on the cross. But this discussion is about baptism.

You said that water baptism doesn't wash away sins yet scripture says that it does.
Acts 22:16
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]'Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.' [/FONT]

Paul had already had Jesus revealed to him 3 days prior to his baptism. No arrogance there. Even before Jesus went to the cross, the Gospels tells us that water baptism was for the forgiveness of sin.

Mark 1:[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]4 John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. [/FONT]

Even then, John's baptism was about faith in Jesus.

Where is this "baptism of desire" mentioned in the Bible? Did Christ tell the thief he was being given this sort of baptism?

Did Christ have to? Jesus gave the Gospel to the Church and the Church is obedient to the Gospel but not was written.

This "baptism of desire" seems like a convenient way to get out of the dying thief (and others) difficulty that one would face if they say that water baptism is necessary for salvation.

It is not a way to get out of anything, it is explaining how unbaptized people can be saved.

In fact, I'm glad the dying thief was recorded because it also shows that salvation is not by works.

Who teaches salvation by works? Of course Paul's message was not about salvation, it was about justification. Of course this discussion is not about works, it is about baptism, which you incorrectly label as a work.

Of course, Idk everything, so enlighten me.

You know plenty but are incorrect about some things. But then, we all need to learn.

Yes, we are called to be baptized, but I don't believe that not getting baptized will stop you from going to heaven.

I agree.

Which people get to go to heaven without being baptized?

Those whom God shows mercy on. The Catholic Church does not say who does not or who does go to heaven. That is God's place.

 

[Rescued One]

Whoever believes in him is not condemned.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:18

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Revelation 5:9

Perhaps the new believer has a scheduled baptism, but is killed in an automobile accident before the time of baptism arrives.

 

[Yarddog]

Whoever believes in him is not condemned.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:18

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Revelation 5:9

Perhaps the new believer has a scheduled baptism, but is killed in an automobile accident before the time of baptism arrives.

Baptism of desire.

 

[GoodMorning2011]

Many Catholics believe one must be water baptized to be saved. Why is this when there's no scripture that say this? In fact, there have been many instances in scripture where people were saved without baptism (the dying theif, Peter's confession). Are the Catholics who say this saying that Christ's sacrifice isn't enough to save them? If anyone believes this way, can they use scripture to support it?

What John 3:3 tells you?
JN 3:3 Jesus answered him, "Most certainly, I tell you, unless one is born anew, he can't see the Kingdom of God."


I believe the thief has been baptized by Jesus when people where taken from hell and baptized on Jordan. There are other ways o baptism as well.

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

What if I drown during baptism and don't make it up out of the water?
What if only my big toe makes it into the water before I can be baptized fully?
What if someone went in the water right before me (its a busy day), contaminating the baptism water?

I think we're being a bit silly. John 3:16-18 spells it out pretty clearly.

 

[Yarddog]

What if I drown during baptism and don't make it up out of the water?
What if only my big toe makes it into the water before I can be baptized fully?
What if someone went in the water right before me (its a busy day), contaminating the baptism water?

I think we're being a bit silly. John 3:16-18 spells it out pretty clearly.

Yes, those who believe will obey God. God called us into baptism but if your pastor holds your head under water long enough that you cannot make it out of the water, I hope the next guy is not a bit silly enough to follow your example.

Mark 16: 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.