Over in OBOB, someone has asked where in the Bible does it say that baptism is merely an outward sign of an inward faith (or something to that effect). I don't know of any specific verses that say that, so I assume that belief comes as an extension of the belief that salvation is by faith alone. For if salvation is by faith alone, then baptism must be merely symbolic? What do you think? How would you best give specific Biblical support for the belief that baptism is an outward sign?
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baptism question
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Just for starters... In very short: 
A. Paul never includes it when he preaches the gospel.
B. He specifically separates baptism from the gospel.
1 Corinthians 1
17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel
C. People get the Holy Spirit before baptism.
Acts 10
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
D. The Thief neither did any works nor was he baptized, yet Christ promised him Paradise.
E. None of the OT saints were ever baptized, yet they were saved.
F. Did Paul ever say "I'm glad I never preached the gospel to you?" Of course not.
1 Corinthians 1
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
G. We are baptized in the Body of Christ by the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
H. Do you see baptism in the following?
John 5
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
G. If I believe the gospel by listening to a radio broadcast and I know no Christians... can I baptize myself? You see, salvation by grace requires only God and me... salvation by baptism requires God, me, and a human agent.
The problems with salvation by baptism are many.
A. Paul never includes it when he preaches the gospel.
B. He specifically separates baptism from the gospel.
1 Corinthians 1
17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel
C. People get the Holy Spirit before baptism.
Acts 10
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
D. The Thief neither did any works nor was he baptized, yet Christ promised him Paradise.
E. None of the OT saints were ever baptized, yet they were saved.
F. Did Paul ever say "I'm glad I never preached the gospel to you?" Of course not.
1 Corinthians 1
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
G. We are baptized in the Body of Christ by the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
H. Do you see baptism in the following?
John 5
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
G. If I believe the gospel by listening to a radio broadcast and I know no Christians... can I baptize myself? You see, salvation by grace requires only God and me... salvation by baptism requires God, me, and a human agent.
The problems with salvation by baptism are many.
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Oh i'll say it... Tradition (capitol 'T' denotes beginning of sentence).kayanne said:
and it's based on the ONE Baptism that we have today: DEATH.Rom 6:3-6 KJV
(3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
(4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
(5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
(6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
...There is no biblical support for "water" baptism being an outward sign. It's a tradition of man based on an "operation of God". (3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
(4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
(5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
(6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
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SH89
Sola scriptura
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Very good post.bleechers said:Just for starters... In very short:
A. Paul never includes it when he preaches the gospel.
B. He specifically separates baptism from the gospel.
1 Corinthians 1
17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel
C. People get the Holy Spirit before baptism.
Acts 10
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
D. The Thief neither did any works nor was he baptized, yet Christ promised him Paradise.
E. None of the OT saints were ever baptized, yet they were saved.
F. Did Paul ever say "I'm glad I never preached the gospel to you?" Of course not.
1 Corinthians 1
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
G. We are baptized in the Body of Christ by the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
H. Do you see baptism in the following?
John 5
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
G. If I believe the gospel by listening to a radio broadcast and I know no Christians... can I baptize myself? You see, salvation by grace requires only God and me... salvation by baptism requires God, me, and a human agent.
The problems with salvation by baptism are many.
One very good and simple question is this: If water saves us, why didnt God just throw us all in the ocean?
The guy your dealing with is probably mis-quoteing acts 2:38,
Acts 2
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Where in acts 2:38 does it say WATER? The word water is not even in acts 2!
The baptisim Peter was talking about was the holy spirit spirit baptisim not water. (tongues is not a sign-it is a gift). According to ephesians 4 there is one baptism, and that is the baptisim of the holy ghost(mark 1:8, acts 1:5)
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Well phooey. My post from last night disappeared in the database crash. I will try to restate it the best I can.
I am wondering if perhaps there is another choice regarding baptism. Just because one believes that baptism is not a part of salvation does not therefore imply that it is merely symbolic. I cannot find any specific scripture telling us that baptism is merely symbolic, so I want to be careful about following man's opinions.
Consider other things that are part of the Christian life. We are commanded to "not forsake the assembling of ourselves together." We are not saved by our assembling, but it is certainly not merely symbolic.
We are commanded to "pray without ceasing." We are not saved by our prayers, but they are not merely symbolic either.
I could list other examples, but hopefully you get my point. Since the Bible makes it clear that we should definitely be baptized, perhaps it does have a purpose beyond symbolism? Perhaps it does somehow draw us closer to Christ, or make us more open to God's leading, or bring about special blessings as we obey God in baptism, or who knows? Yes, this is speculation, but I think it's worth considering that baptism may be more than a symbol.
I'll admit I have always considered baptism to be only symbolic, but the thread in OBOB asking for scriptural support for this has made me realize that it's not clearly defined as such.
I am wondering if perhaps there is another choice regarding baptism. Just because one believes that baptism is not a part of salvation does not therefore imply that it is merely symbolic. I cannot find any specific scripture telling us that baptism is merely symbolic, so I want to be careful about following man's opinions.
Consider other things that are part of the Christian life. We are commanded to "not forsake the assembling of ourselves together." We are not saved by our assembling, but it is certainly not merely symbolic.
We are commanded to "pray without ceasing." We are not saved by our prayers, but they are not merely symbolic either.
I could list other examples, but hopefully you get my point. Since the Bible makes it clear that we should definitely be baptized, perhaps it does have a purpose beyond symbolism? Perhaps it does somehow draw us closer to Christ, or make us more open to God's leading, or bring about special blessings as we obey God in baptism, or who knows? Yes, this is speculation, but I think it's worth considering that baptism may be more than a symbol.
I'll admit I have always considered baptism to be only symbolic, but the thread in OBOB asking for scriptural support for this has made me realize that it's not clearly defined as such.
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We apparently were posting about the same time. Hopefully after your post, you will see my previous one, and realize that I am not at all debating whether or not baptism saves us. And there is no one in particular that I am dealing with about this, acts 2:38 or anything else. I am just trying to reconsider my long-held assumption that baptism is merely symbolic.SH89 said:
BTW, even as someone who doesn't believe water saves us, your ocean comment is pretty silly. I hope you don't use that with people who do believe baptism saves them--I'm sure it would be nothing more than annoying.
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Well, Actually water was in Acts 2:38...SH89 said:
Act 10:36-37 KJV
(36) The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all
(37) That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
Which was REPENT and be Baptised IN WATER. Peter was preaching the same "word" in Acts 2.(36) The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all
(37) That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
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GreenEyedLady
My little Dinky Doo
Kayanne,kayanne said:
Think about Baptism like circumsision of the Old Testement. The physical part of circumsion was an outward sign of an inward covenent with God. Even Paul quoted Abrahams faith and his circumsion being that it took faith in GOD for Abraham to even concider circumsision. Abraham had faith before the physical covent.
Romans 4:11-13 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
I hope you understand my point here. Its not the circumcision that made Abraham God's child, its his faith in God that made him Gods child. And making this covent physical by cutting away the foreskin was mans way to say, YES GOD, I AM YOURS!
GEL
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How on earth can anyone state that the ordinance of baptism, administered by men to the flesh, can possibly be necessary in the presence of the blood of Christ?
It makes the blood of Christ an unclean thing, unable to save.
Paul never teaches baptism as part of the gospel. NEVER. He openly juxtaposes the two.
My original post was as direct and short an answer as I could give the the direct question. I was going to point out later that there is even some reason to believe that baptism (water) was never given to the current church. Regardless, this putting of an earthly ordinance on the same level as the sacrifice of Christ or merely stating that the sacrifice of Christ was somehow insufficient until we go through a ritual is not a tolerable doctrine.
If it has nothing to do with salvation... in what way could it be anything else than merely symbolic? Could you clarify the possiblities in your mind for us?
Also, I would like to note that some of the people who teach the necessity of baptism in salvation also teach that Matthew 25 is about salvation and that John 6 is about gaining eternal life. Odd thing, neither passage mentions baptism. The only mention of Jesus and baptism is that He baptized nobody.
It makes the blood of Christ an unclean thing, unable to save.
Paul never teaches baptism as part of the gospel. NEVER. He openly juxtaposes the two.
My original post was as direct and short an answer as I could give the the direct question. I was going to point out later that there is even some reason to believe that baptism (water) was never given to the current church. Regardless, this putting of an earthly ordinance on the same level as the sacrifice of Christ or merely stating that the sacrifice of Christ was somehow insufficient until we go through a ritual is not a tolerable doctrine.
If it has nothing to do with salvation... in what way could it be anything else than merely symbolic? Could you clarify the possiblities in your mind for us?
Also, I would like to note that some of the people who teach the necessity of baptism in salvation also teach that Matthew 25 is about salvation and that John 6 is about gaining eternal life. Odd thing, neither passage mentions baptism. The only mention of Jesus and baptism is that He baptized nobody.
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Diakoneo
Active Member
I generally agree with the sentiment of this post but at the same time I would advise caution in this comparison. That baptism = circumcision or is the same type of deal is one of the great errors in some of the reformed churches and is (as thought by some) the birth place of "covenant" theology. The covenant theologian will always equate circumcision with baptism in their continued attempt to write the nation of Israel out of the future. While we (hopefully I can say we) understand that this is not so. The argument (by the covenant theologian) is that since baptism is the NT version of circumcision it is therefore expedient to baptise our children and infants. Since baptism does not save but is a sign of the covenant (for circumcision did not save either but was a sign) we should do it to our children just as our OT counterparts did circumcision to theirs. This is a huge flaw with covenantalism that has led to many errors.GreenEyedLady said:
Baptism has nothing to do with circumcision, it is a symbolic cleansing and way to relate us to the Master.
And I'm pretty sure that Green Eyed Lady was not implying that baptism is "our" circumcision or anything... just wanted to make a point to clarify...
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Yeah... they are both meaningless when it comes to salvation... and if you are trusting in either, you are a slave to the law and not a servant of Christ.
Men have always been saved the same way, by grace through faith. No water or surgery need apply.
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Bulldog
Don't Tread on Me
I'm Reformed (Anabaptist though) and I'd haveto agree with you. Baptism is not the replacement to circimcision, but more so the fullfillment of it. The Old Covenant was a foreshadiwing of the new, the old was based on the phyiscal (do not, do not, etc.), while the new is the fullfillment of this in inward terms (do not think this). In the Old Covenant, the physical was required to be in the covenant, whilce in the New, the inward is required, inward faith.Diakoneo said:
God Bless
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OOOWWWWCHHHH!!! (That is the pain I am starting to feel from banging my head against the wall.)bleechers said:
Once again, let me say as plainly as I can: I never mentioned anything about baptism saving us, or being part of the gospel. That is not the point of this thread.
(and in case you think I'm being touchy, I went through this several other times yesterday, in posts in this thread that got wiped out by the database crash.)
OOOUCH!
(more head banging...please re-read my previous posts, especially #5) Definitely gonna need some tylenol for this headache. (LOL)Please please please pleeeeeeeeeeeease......re-read post #5.
(btw, I'm being melodramatic only to be humorous. But can we all please agree that I am not asking about baptism being essential for salvation?!?! I know there have been problems with posts not showing up today. Is my post #5 not showing up???)
saved by the blood of Jesus, kayanne
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Ah, but here's the thing..Bulldog said:
In a some sense, Baptism DOES replace circimcision.
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
There is NO WATER in that baptism, but there is a circumcision...Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
That's just my 2c...
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I'm obviously not Jewish, and I'm no scholar of the teachings of Judaism. But I always thought that circumcision was more than just an outward sign, as you called it. There are probably other scriptures that relate to this, but I'll post one that comes to mind:GreenEyedLady said:
This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. Genesis 17:10-14
Yes, this passage does say circumcision is a "token of the covenant." But it also says that if a boy is not circumcised, his "soul shall be cut off from his people." This would seem to say that circumcision allows his soul to remain among his people, to remain a part of the covenant.
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Water baptism it not a laughing matter...kayanne said:
kayanne, did my previous post (#3 i think) help?
I can elaborate a little more...
the tradition is also based on the reason why Jesus Himself was baptised in water.... To make Himself known to the people He was sent to.Joh 1:31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
Joh 1:32-33
(32) And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
(33) And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
Now everyone breath!!! in da nose... out of mouth....
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GreenEyedLady
My little Dinky Doo
THANK YOU for clarifing!Diakoneo said:
I did not mean that they equaled each other.
Paul, I do agree with you and Kayanne, you are also on to something.
Spiritual Circumcision, what being born again really is, does allow people to have an everlasing covenent just like God stated in the verse you posted about the circumcision of the flesh. They are both everlasting (Both circumcisions) and any of those who do not have spirtual circumcision (BEING BORN AGAIN) will be cut off from the rest of the believers.
See, this is how cool God is. You see here now how the New Testement fullfills the Old Testement with the circumcisions? That is just so awesome!
This could turn the post around, but right here at this point is the reason why the sciptures are true when it comes to eternal salvation. Atleast to me it is CLEAR as a bell.
GEL
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@@Paul@@ said:Water baptism it not a laughing matter...
kayanne, did my previous post (#3 i think) help?
I can elaborate a little more...
Actually I was rather confused by your post #3.
But I was just so happy that you weren't accusing me of saying baptism is necessary for salvation!!! And thank you for elaborating.....I gotcha that time.
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Well baptism is necessary for salvation...kayanne said:Actually I was rather confused by your post #3.
And thank you for elaborating.....I gotcha that time.
And that is the ONE baptism for today...
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Which is a "spiritual baptism" unto DEATH ( Rom 6:4,5 & Col 2:11-13 ) and contains NO WATER... From #3 (should make more sense now)
...There is no biblical support for "water" baptism being an outward sign. Water Baptism is tradition of man SYMBOLIZING an "operation of God".
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To clarify any confusion..
You do realize that to be baptized WITH the Holy Spirit one would SEE the Spirit descending!! I take it all your friends could SEE the Spirit descending upon you??
Act 2:2-3
(2) And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
(3) And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Is this the baptism necessary?(2) And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
(3) And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Maybe i should quote the GENTILE conversion..
Act 10:44-47
(44) While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
(45) And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
(46) For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
(47) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
...It appears the Holy Ghost was given BEFORE any water. But did they SEE the Spirit being poured upon the gentiles??(44) While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
(45) And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
(46) For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
(47) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
...the beginning being Acts 2:2-3If Baptism is necessary by the above logic: We should SEE something the moment we believe. So what happened?
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