Ok, to begin with let me state that I do not believe Baptism is just a sign. As all the other Sacraments are said both in Scripture and in Tradition to give real Grace so the same must be true of Baptism, the sacred mystery most emphasized in the New Testament. This is not an impediment to me joining Orthodoxy, just a nagging question in my mind.
My question is how can Baptism be said to bring Salvation if it is also admitted that people can go to Paradise without Baptism, such as Martyrs through Baptism of blood or other believers who died before they could be baptized or simply were ignorant of its necessity? I think I may have found a suitable answer for myself but I want to know for sure it is acceptable:
The Problem
There is no real problem because of the eternal, timeless nature of Salvation. The physical Baptism acts as the weight, point or bridge between the physical and Spiritual for ones Salvation regardless of whether the Holy Spirit filled someone (for example a martyr) before the physical act of Baptism because our Salvation is not constrained by linear time as perceived by mortals.
The perfect example to illustrate this, i think, is Christ's incarnation. As I understand it Christ is eternally begotten as the Son of God through His incarnation, the Word thus eternally being generated from the Father. Christ became man, the son of God and man, at a definite point in linear time and yet He was also eternally the Son of God beyond all time. The Saints likewise are said to be God and joint heirs with Christ not by essence but by sharing in His energies, and therefore the Saints are capable of hearing our prayers through God's energies, granting miracles through God's energies and being eternal through God's energies.
Therefore, just as the Logos is eternally God the Son through an incarnation in linear time, so to our Salvation is eternal but rooted in Baptism in linear time. The Baptism is of water & spirit all at once and like the nature of Salvation is itself a mystery, thus the argument over whether someone was "saved" without Baptism is a useless and vain argument. If someone is in paradise without having been Baptized in water that does not contradict the nature of Baptism just as the Salvation of the Old Testament Patriarchs does not contradict Salvation through Christ and the New Covenant.
Is this a good explanation?
My question is how can Baptism be said to bring Salvation if it is also admitted that people can go to Paradise without Baptism, such as Martyrs through Baptism of blood or other believers who died before they could be baptized or simply were ignorant of its necessity? I think I may have found a suitable answer for myself but I want to know for sure it is acceptable:
The Problem
- Salvation is not a one time event but rather a lifelong and eternal process. This is the reason Orthodox don't really use the term "get saved".
- One can be given eternal life without physical baptism (martyrs, ignorance, etc).
- Baptism is the Baptism for remission of Sins, the one Baptism of the faith and Salvation. But how?
There is no real problem because of the eternal, timeless nature of Salvation. The physical Baptism acts as the weight, point or bridge between the physical and Spiritual for ones Salvation regardless of whether the Holy Spirit filled someone (for example a martyr) before the physical act of Baptism because our Salvation is not constrained by linear time as perceived by mortals.
The perfect example to illustrate this, i think, is Christ's incarnation. As I understand it Christ is eternally begotten as the Son of God through His incarnation, the Word thus eternally being generated from the Father. Christ became man, the son of God and man, at a definite point in linear time and yet He was also eternally the Son of God beyond all time. The Saints likewise are said to be God and joint heirs with Christ not by essence but by sharing in His energies, and therefore the Saints are capable of hearing our prayers through God's energies, granting miracles through God's energies and being eternal through God's energies.
Therefore, just as the Logos is eternally God the Son through an incarnation in linear time, so to our Salvation is eternal but rooted in Baptism in linear time. The Baptism is of water & spirit all at once and like the nature of Salvation is itself a mystery, thus the argument over whether someone was "saved" without Baptism is a useless and vain argument. If someone is in paradise without having been Baptized in water that does not contradict the nature of Baptism just as the Salvation of the Old Testament Patriarchs does not contradict Salvation through Christ and the New Covenant.
Is this a good explanation?
That is something I definitely never heard of before. Thank you for taking the time to get those images for me.
