Baptism is a work.

Oneofhope · Dec 5, 2023

Guojing said:
Do you know who Peter was addressing in Acts 2?

Well, I may be stupid but the text tells us that the context was Jesus's betrayal and subsequent death. Jesus died for Jews and Gentiles. And because Jews and Gentiles are responsible for the death of Jesus, the whole world is the audience.

Why would you ask?

Oneofhope · Dec 5, 2023

Strong in Him said:
Not sure about that.

Ok, but I'm just quoting Scripture.

1 John 4:6 NKJV - "We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error."

We are literally taught how to tell the difference between those who are of God and those who are not. The difference? Whether a person listens or not. I take this concept extremely serious, for it describes me . . . it describes us all, depending on which side of the fence we play on. We are to listen, but we are not required to listen to people who refuse to listen themselves. So, I walk away because they do not possess the Spirit within them that Effectually Causes them to listen.

Dan Perez · Dec 5, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
Please, tell me, exactly whose work is baptism?

The BIGGEST divider among those who believe in the bible is WATER BAPRISM and just the word BAPTISM ,

#1 WATER BAPTISM was never known until John came to show That Israel needed to clean and John NEVER said the GENTILES needed TO be baptized AT ALL .

In Eph 4:5 reads One Lord , One Faith , One BAPTISN , and most fail to see That Greek word here is NOT EVER mens WATER BAPTISM , Why ?

First it is not the Greek word BAPTIZO , PERIOD !!

It is the Greek word , BAPTISMA and is NOUN and it means it is a person and we see from Acts 1:5 that water baptism will be set aside >
And Only the OLD COVENANT had priests , and to be be from the LINGAGE of AARON to be a Priest .

dan p

Xeno.of.athens · Dec 5, 2023

Dan Perez said:
The BIGGEST divider among those who believe in the bible is WATER BAPRISM and just the word BAPTISM ,

#1 WATER BAPTISM was never known until John came to show That Israel needed to clean and John NEVER said the GENTILES needed TO be baptized AT ALL .

In Eph 4:5 reads One Lord , One Faith , One BAPTISN , and most fail to see That Greek word here is NOT EVER mens WATER BAPTISM , Why ?

First it is not the Greek word BAPTIZO , PERIOD !!

It is the Greek word , BAPTISMA and is NOUN and it means it is a person and we see from Acts 1:5 that water baptism will be set aside >
And Only the OLD COVENANT had priests , and to be be from the LINGAGE of AARON to be a Priest .

dan p

You did not say whose work Baptism is.

Oneofhope · Dec 5, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
You did not say whose work Baptism is.

Because Dan is making the statement that water baptism is not a Work at all. Water baptism contains no Effectual Power. The context of the Bible is that God has the Power to Redeem. The context of the Bible is that Jesus left His Throne in Heaven to Redeem, to Cause Spiritual Cleanness.

Just curious . . . what Effect does water baptism produce that the Father, Son, and Spirit do not?

Dan Perez · Dec 5, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
You did not say whose work Baptism is.

In Eze 36:25 THEN I WILL SPRINKLE // in the QAL , in the PERFECT TENSE , and is SLINGULAR .

CLEAN // TAOR is in the PLURAL , and in the ASBSOLUE

WATER // MAYIM , also in the PLURAL , and in the ABSOLUTE

AND YE SHALL BE CLEAN // TAHER , also in the QAL , in the PERFECT TENSE , in the PLURAL

WILL I CLEAN // in the PIEL , in the IMPERFECT TENSE , in the SINGULAR .

This is what Christ will do Israel under the NEW COVENANT .

WATER by it self has many meaning , like , WASHING , SPRINKLING , PLACING INTO .

Since you believe in WATER BAPTISM , your thoughts on 1 Cor 10:2 And all were BAPTIZED unto Moses , in the CLOUD and in the SEA ?

How were BAPTIZED unto MOSES ?

How were they Baptized unto the COUD ?

How were the Thousand of Jews that crossed the BAPTIZED unto the SEA ?

What is the signIficance of the CLOUD and the SEA ?

How about this one in 1 Cor 15: HOW were they BAPTIZED for the DEAD >

Another one WHY was Jese BAPTIZED ?

dan p

Guojing · Dec 5, 2023

2ndTimothyGroup said:
Well, I may be stupid but the text tells us that the context was Jesus's betrayal and subsequent death. Jesus died for Jews and Gentiles. And because Jews and Gentiles are responsible for the death of Jesus, the whole world is the audience.

Why would you ask?

In Acts 2:36, Peter accused Israel of crucifying their Messiah, a national sin, and gave them the good news that if they are willing to repent of that sin and be baptized (Acts 2:38), they can still save themselves from the wrath that is to come in Daniel's 70th week (Acts 2:40, Acts 2:16-21).

That is certainly not the good news Paul was preaching to us gentiles in Ephesians 1-3, if you read what he said properly.

The 2 good news are not the same.

Guojing · Dec 5, 2023

2ndTimothyGroup said:
With all due respect, anyone who refers to experience the Power and Love of God . . . I would keep my ears particularly wide open.

That person wrote:
"The amount of love and power from Him was just amazing to me at that point."

A person who has experienced the Power of God, expressed in the form of Peace and Love . . . this experience gives a person a certain angle by which to read and interpret Scripture.

Sure, I am fine with that testimony from him. The way one interprets scripture is largely determined by his own personal experience with God and how he was taught in various churches he has attended.

That doesn't mean people cannot agree to disagree cordially about scripture interpretation, without resorting to making statements like "you don't have the spirit of God, you do not know Christ" etc

Guojing · Dec 5, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
You did not say whose work Baptism is.

Are you making the "Since you cannot baptize yourself and need another to do that for you, it is therefore not your work but rather your faith" point?

Xeno.of.athens · Dec 5, 2023

2ndTimothyGroup said:
Because Dan is making the statement that water baptism is not a Work at all. Water baptism contains no Effectual Power. The context of the Bible is that God has the Power to Redeem. The context of the Bible is that Jesus left His Throne in Heaven to Redeem, to Cause Spiritual Cleanness.

Just curious . . . what Effect does water baptism produce that the Father, Son, and Spirit do not?

No effect of any kind happens without God's work to make it happen.

Xeno.of.athens · Dec 5, 2023

Dan Perez said:
How were the Thousand of Jews that crossed the BAPTIZED unto the SEA ?

They were baptised into Moses in the cloud and the sea. Let's look at the passage to see what it teaches.

I want you to remember, my friends, what happened to our ancestors who followed Moses. They were all under the protection of the cloud, and all passed safely through the Red Sea. In the cloud and in the sea they were all baptized as followers of Moses. All ate the same spiritual bread and drank the same spiritual drink. They drank from the spiritual rock that went with them; and that rock was Christ himself. But even then God was not pleased with most of them, and so their dead bodies were scattered over the desert. Now, all of this is an example for us, to warn us not to desire evil things, as they did, nor to worship idols, as some of them did. As the scripture says, "The people sat down to a feast which turned into an orgy of drinking and sex." We must not be guilty of sexual immorality, as some of them were---and in one day twenty-three thousand of them fell dead. We must not put the Lord to the test, as some of them did---and they were killed by snakes. We must not complain, as some of them did---and they were destroyed by the Angel of Death. All these things happened to them as examples for others, and they were written down as a warning for us. For we live at a time when the end is about to come. If you think you are standing firm you had better be careful that you do not fall. Every test that you have experienced is the kind that normally comes to people. But God keeps his promise, and he will not allow you to be tested beyond your power to remain firm; at the time you are put to the test, he will give you the strength to endure it, and so provide you with a way out.

(1 Corinthians 10:1-13 GNB)

For them, the Israelites, the baptism in the cloud and the sea was the sacrament of their union with Moses under the Law. Whatever the Law commanded their baptism said they would do. They were to avoid idolatry.

Thus, baptism was the sacrament of union with Moses for them, and for us baptism is the sacrament of union with Jesus Christ. By it we confess Christ as Lord, Saviour, and we are joined to him. We too are to avoid idolatry and worship one Lord, with one faith, and one baptism.

Xeno.of.athens · Dec 5, 2023

Guojing said:
Are you making the "Since you cannot baptize yourself and need another to do that for you, it is therefore not your work but rather your faith" point?

No.

Guojing · Dec 5, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
No.

So if I need to be willing to go the water, go down to the water, to be water baptized, why is that not something I do?

Dan Perez · Dec 5, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
They were baptised into Moses in the cloud and the sea. Let's look at the passage to see what it teaches.

I want you to remember, my friends, what happened to our ancestors who followed Moses. They were all under the protection of the cloud, and all passed safely through the Red Sea. In the cloud and in the sea they were all baptized as followers of Moses. All ate the same spiritual bread and drank the same spiritual drink. They drank from the spiritual rock that went with them; and that rock was Christ himself. But even then God was not pleased with most of them, and so their dead bodies were scattered over the desert. Now, all of this is an example for us, to warn us not to desire evil things, as they did, nor to worship idols, as some of them did. As the scripture says, "The people sat down to a feast which turned into an orgy of drinking and sex." We must not be guilty of sexual immorality, as some of them were---and in one day twenty-three thousand of them fell dead. We must not put the Lord to the test, as some of them did---and they were killed by snakes. We must not complain, as some of them did---and they were destroyed by the Angel of Death. All these things happened to them as examples for others, and they were written down as a warning for us. For we live at a time when the end is about to come. If you think you are standing firm you had better be careful that you do not fall. Every test that you have experienced is the kind that normally comes to people. But God keeps his promise, and he will not allow you to be tested beyond your power to remain firm; at the time you are put to the test, he will give you the strength to endure it, and so provide you with a way out.
(1 Corinthians 10:1-13 GNB)

For them, the Israelites, the baptism in the cloud and the sea was the sacrament of their union with Moses under the Law. Whatever the Law commanded their baptism said they would do. They were to avoid idolatry.

Thus, baptism was the sacrament of union with Moses for them, and for us baptism is the sacrament of union with Jesus Christ. By it we confess Christ as Lord, Saviour, and we are joined to him. We too are to avoid idolatry and worship one Lord, with one faith, and one baptism.

Will you explain how these thousands of Jews BAPTIZED unto Moses unto the CLOUD , unto the SEA ,

ONE is very easy as it was the EGYPTIANS who got wet and drowned .

You are avoiding how they were BAPTIZED unto Moses ?

And why was Jesus water baptized ?

And in 1 Cor 15:29 , HOW WERE THEY BAPTIZED FOR THE DEAD ?

dan p

Xeno.of.athens · Dec 5, 2023

Guojing said:
Are you making the "Since you cannot baptize yourself and need another to do that for you, it is therefore not your work but rather your faith" point?

No.

Guojing said:
So if I need to be willing to go the water, go down to the water, to be water baptized, why is that not something I do?

Because baptism is not a human work. It is a sacrament. Like the Lord's supper. A work of God in which human beings participate by partaking of the sacrament.

Guojing · Dec 5, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
No.

Because baptism is not a human work. It is a sacrament. Like the Lord's supper. A work of God in which human beings participate by partaking of the sacrament.

So when human beings participate, you don't think they are working?

That is interesting.

In the case of Noah in Genesis 6:14 for example, did Noah had to work to build an ark that God commanded him to do, or did he also "participate" while God builds the ark?

Xeno.of.athens · Dec 5, 2023

Dan Perez said:
Will you explain how these thousands of Jews BAPTIZED unto Moses unto the CLOUD , unto the SEA ,

I already did. I wrote:

Xeno.of.athens said:
the baptism in the cloud and the sea was the sacrament of their union with Moses under the Law.

They all walked through the sea on dry land, with the cloud separating the Egyptians from them.

Dan Perez said:
ONE is very easy as it was the EGYPTIANS who got wet and drowned .

Baptism does not need submersion, one could imagine - and I stress this is only imagining - that the Israelites may have been sprinkled while passing through the sea, a few drops, a slight mist of spray from the waves above.

Dan Perez said:
why was Jesus water baptized ?

To fulfil all righteousness.

Dan Perez said:
And in 1 Cor 15:29 , HOW WERE THEY BAPTIZED FOR THE DEAD ?

That is an interesting interpretive difficulty.
Who are baptized for the dead. Saint Paul still brings other proofs of the resurrection. This is a hard place, and the words are differently expounded.

1. Several late interpreters understand a metaphorical baptism, and that to be baptized for the dead, is to undertake self-mortifications, and works of penance, in hopes of a happy resurrection; and this exposition agrees with what follows, of being exposed to dangers every hour, of dying daily, &c. But if this had been the apostle's meaning, he would rather have said, Who baptize themselves. Besides, this exposition is not so much as mentioned in any of the ancient interpreters.
2. Some think that St. Paul tells the Corinthians that they ought not to question the resurrection of the dead, who had a custom among them, if any one died without baptism, to baptize another that was living for him; and this they did, fancying that such a baptism would be profitable to the dead person, in order to a happy resurrection. Tertullian mentions this custom in one or two places, and also St. John Chrysostom on this place. But it does not seem probable that St. Paul would bring any argument of the resurrection from a custom which he himself could not approve, nor was ever approved in the Church.
3. St. John Chrysostom and the Greek interpreters, who generally follow him, expound these words, who are baptized for the dead, as if it were the same as to say, who receive baptism with hopes that they themselves, and all the dead, will rise again; and therefore make a profession, when they are baptized, that they believe the resurrection. So that St. Paul here brings this proof among others, that they who have been made Christians, and continue Christians, cannot call in question the resurrection, which they professed to believe in their creed at their baptism, the creed being always repeated before they were baptized.
4. Others, by being baptized for the dead, understand those who begged and called for baptism when they were in danger of death, and would by no means go out of this world without being baptized, hoping thereby to have a happy resurrection of their bodies; so that to be baptized for the dead is the same as on the account of the state of the dead, which they were entering into. See St. Epiphanius, hær. viii. p. 144. Edit Petavii. (Witham) Some think the apostle here alludes to a ceremony then in use: but others, more probably, to the prayers and penitential labours performed by the primitive Christians for the souls of the faithful departed: or to the baptism of afflictions and sufferings undergone for sinners spiritually dead. (Challoner)

- quoted from Haydock's notes.

Xeno.of.athens · Dec 5, 2023

Guojing said:
So when human beings participate, you don't think they are working?

That is correct, I do not think that those who partake of a sacrament are working, but God is.

Guojing said:
That is interesting.

Why is it interesting to you?

Guojing said:
In the case of Noah in Genesis 6:14 for example, did Noah had to work to build an ark that God commanded him to do, or did he also "participate" while God builds the ark?

The Ark was hard work for Noah and his family. It is not a sacrament. Noah built it as an act of obedience to God's command.

Guojing · Dec 5, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
That is correct, I do not think that those who partake of a sacrament are working, but God is.

Why is it interesting to you?

The Ark was hard work for Noah and his family. It is not a sacrament. Noah built it as an act of obedience to God's command.

It is interesting to me because, as I said, we still need to be willing to go the water, go down to the water, to be water baptized.

We cannot just say "I believe I need to be baptized", without doing any of those corresponding actions, and baptism will automatically happen, aka Romans 4:5.

Xeno.of.athens · Dec 5, 2023

Guojing said:
It is interesting to me because, as I said, we still need to be willing to go the water, go down to the water, to be water baptized.

We cannot just say "I believe I need to be baptized", without doing any of those corresponding actions, and baptism will automatically happen, aka Romans 4:5.

It seems that one must also be willing to believe in order to actually believe, is that a work?

Baptism is a work.

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