Baptism is a work.

[Xeno.of.athens]

Also, to complicate matters even more. Some Christian groups who claim to believe in faith + works believe in infant baptism. How can a baby have faith? They can’t. So it’s not faith + works if one believes “water baptism”is faith and not a work.

Please, tell me, exactly whose work is baptism?

 

[ARBITER01]

Why are you trying to convince me of a point I am not in disagreement with you over? I believe we are to follow Christ’s example in holy conduct as a man. We are not in disagreement on this point. What we are in disagreement over is Jesus having divine power as the second person of the Trinity or Godhead.



Okay. This statement makes no sense. Nowhere did I express any concern or problem in this happening. My point was to show to you that Jesus was not solely a man but He is God. This means we do not imitate Christ when He was being worshiped. Jesus was worshiped as God. Do you agree with that? Do you agree that Jesus should have been worshiped as God? Yes, or no?

Lol, boy people are touchy on here lately.

Where I'm at and where you're at are on two different levels. I'm pursuing walking in power like Jesus and the apostles did, but given your responses to what I've said so far, I don't think you believe this is possible, which means we probably would just argue.

To the subject,.... of course baptism is a work, it is a step in our faith walk, but it is obviously not the only one. I'll leave things at that. Good day.

 

[Oneofhope]

I know. And now that you've explained it like that, I agree with you.

But, as I said, I wrote the words "people will always disagree", you replied by saying that quarrelsome people did not have the Spirit - and I felt that you were saying "if any Christian argues, or disagrees, with another, they are not filled with the Spirit." That was why I gave you the examples that I did and said "what about them?"

If someone said that they were born again, a new creation but spent their time arguing/picking fault/complaining etc I would probably question what they had understood by 'giving their life to Christ'.
That said, growth is gradual. Someone might well be filled with the Spirit but the fruit of love, or patience, isn't yet fully grown.

100%.

One of the inherent problems with "christian" websites is that because people are generally allowed to rip into each other, this, seemingly by default, puts most people on "edge." A truly Christian website would embrace one another. We, as a group, would express the same Love that God has for Jesus that has been planted into His Holy Elect. With that base of Godly Love, we would prove who we are, along with our New Nature, that we belong to the Lord. This is why it can be very dangerous for Christians to spend time at "christian" websites, as people are quick to argue and slow to be gentle, loving, and kind.

For me, I am already impatient with folks that argue. I would rather just walk away, but it seems as though most are addicted to communicating, even if it means communicating in a way that demonstrates that we're not saved. It is this need to simply continue, post after post, of how right we are and how wrong "you" are, etc. To me, that is so boring and unproductive. Don't get me wrong, I used to do the same thing; I couldn't let things go. Now, I desperately attempt to avoid conflict, including when I am misunderstood. I would rather be misunderstood than spend my time trying to prove that I have been (misunderstood). I figure that if a person has the Mind of Christ, they'd be interested in conversation. I also figure that if a person doesn't want to listen, it shows that they are not my true Brother or Sister. Anyone who has been given the Love that God has for Jesus will have begun the most remarkable Transformation . . . it we be undeniable . . . a time in a month that a person could mark on a calendar.

 

[Oneofhope]

Do we have hearts that desire to know the full Story of God, which includes the Old Testament? You know, if the Apostles quote Old Testament Scriptures, shouldn't we be aware of them? And if we were aware of the Scriptures and "laws" of God, wouldn't we be able to make solid conclusions about what to believe within the New Testament?

That said, what is the point that Paul is making by referencing the 7,000 that the Lord "preserved for Himself"? Paul's point is that Election is not based on any "work," but on the Grace and Mercy of God alone. We [need] to start relating the Old Testament to the New Testament, and if a person refuses to learn the Old Testament, they can no longer speak with authority over the Scriptures (and people) . . . not one sentence of it.

Romans 11:2-6 NKJV - "God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, "LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life"? But what does the divine response say to him? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if [it is] of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work."

 

[Guojing]

I believe 1 John 2:6 and other such verses just fine. We are to follow a Christ in his human example. But are you not aware that Jesus was worshiped as God? This is something we cannot receive or follow seeing we are only created.

Actually, if you understand what Paul was teaching us in the Body of Christ here in 2 Corinthians 5:16

16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

You will understand that we are not to follow Christ in the flesh, in his earthly ministry to the nation of Israel (Matthew 15:24, Romans 15:8).

We are to follow Paul, as he follow Christ (1 Corinthians 11:1), which is after the ascended Christ. (Galatians 1:11-12)

 

[Oneofhope]

We are to follow Paul, as he follow Christ

I love it. I wish more people thought this way.

 

[ARBITER01]

Actually, if you understand what Paul was teaching us in the Body of Christ here in 2 Corinthians 5:16

16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

You will understand that we are not to follow Christ in the flesh, in his earthly ministry to the nation of Israel (Matthew 15:24, Romans 15:8).

We are to follow Paul, as he follow Christ (1 Corinthians 11:1), which is after the ascended Christ. (Galatians 1:11-12)

I actually like this post.

One correction, if I may, Paul mentioned: "Imitate me as I imitate Christ." So Jesus is still the standard by which a person's works can be seen to be from GOD.

 

[Guojing]

I actually like this post.

One correction, if I may, Paul mentioned: "Imitate me as I imitate Christ." So Jesus is still the standard by which a person's works can be seen to be from GOD.

As long as you recognize that Paul is imitating Christ differently from what went down in Matthew-John, we are in agreement. =)

 

[ARBITER01]

As long as you recognize that Paul is imitating Christ differently from what went down in Matthew-John, we are in agreement. =)

Well I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that.

Jesus specifically said that one believing in Him would do His works and greater. I'm sure He didn't mean for any of us to go to the cross, but all the works associated with the gifts that He did we should be doing also.

 

[Guojing]

Well I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that.

Jesus specifically said that one believing in Him would do His works and greater. I'm sure He didn't mean for any of us to go to the cross, but all the works associated with the gifts that He did we should be doing also.

Jesus said that in his first coming to Israel, so that, to me counts as following Christ after the flesh.

Unless you can show that Paul also told us in the Body of Christ, that we will do greater miracles than what Jesus did, then yeah, I would agree with you.

 

[ARBITER01]

Jesus said that in his first coming to Israel, so that, to me counts as following Christ after the flesh.

Unless you can show that Paul also told us in the Body of Christ, that we will do greater miracles than what Jesus did, then yeah, I would agree with you.

Meh,.....

Is this some sort of oddball Messianic teaching? I don't know where you get your ideas from, but the examples that Jesus gave is to anyone born again. He is our standard.

 

[Guojing]

Meh,.....

Is this some sort of oddball Messianic teaching? I don't know where you get your ideas from, but the examples that Jesus gave is to anyone born again. He is our standard.

We are not his audience in his first coming (Matthew 15:24).

That is why Paul tells us, as our apostle, to follow him, as he follows Christ. He did not ask us to follow Christ after the flesh.

 

[Oneofhope]

We are not his audience in his first coming (Matthew 15:24).

Acts 2:23 NLT - "But God knew what would happen, and his prearranged plan was carried out when Jesus was betrayed. With the help of lawless Gentiles, you nailed him to a cross and killed him."

The whole world is the audience.

Ephesians 3:6 NLT - "And this is God's plan: Both Gentiles and Jews who believe the Good News share equally in the riches inherited by God's children. Both are part of the same body, and both enjoy the promise of blessings because they belong to Christ Jesus."

 

[ARBITER01]

We are not his audience in his first coming (Matthew 15:24).

That is why Paul tells us, as our apostle, to follow him, as he follows Christ. He did not ask us to follow Christ after the flesh.

You know what,.......back in '92 when I got born again, I had a major visitation from the Lord Jesus that same afternoon. The amount of love and power from Him was just amazing to me at that point. It always is really. But He told me to believe in His word. He didn't say believe what the apostles said and did, He specifically said "believe in My word."

I'm going to tell you something here,..... I'm going to believe Jesus,.... not you. I don't mean to offend you, but that's just the way that it is with me. My Christianity is not based around simply what I read from my bible or something that someone tells me, it is based around a daily personal relationship with The Lord Jesus. He is the one I trust, and He has never let me down yet, not once. So if I need to know something particular about His word, I can simply just ask Him.

Being that I have been with The Lord just over 30 years, I've never once had The Holy Spirit lead me into believing anything like you are promoting on here.

 

[Oneofhope]

You know what,.......back in '92 when I got born again, I had a major visitation from the Lord Jesus that same afternoon. The amount of love and power from Him was just amazing to me at that point. It always is really. But He told me to believe in His word. He didn't say believe what the apostles said and did, He specifically said "believe in My word."

I'm going to tell you something here,..... I'm going to believe Jesus,.... not you. I don't mean to offend you, but that's just the way that it is with me. My Christianity is not based around simply what I read from my bible or something that someone tells me, it is based around a daily personal relationship with The Lord Jesus. He is the one I trust, and He has never let me down yet, not once. So if I need to know something particular about His word, I can simply just ask Him.

Being that I have been with The Lord just over 30 years, I've never once had The Holy Spirit lead me into believing anything like you are promoting on here.

This is a very, very Powerful message written above. I wonder . . . who knows why? What is it about this message that is so stunning?

 

[Guojing]

You know what,.......back in '92 when I got born again, I had a major visitation from the Lord Jesus that same afternoon. The amount of love and power from Him was just amazing to me at that point. It always is really. But He told me to believe in His word. He didn't say believe what the apostles said and did, He specifically said "believe in My word."

I'm going to tell you something here,..... I'm going to believe Jesus,.... not you. I don't mean to offend you, but that's just the way that it is with me. My Christianity is not based around simply what I read from my bible or something that someone tells me, it is based around a daily personal relationship with The Lord Jesus. He is the one I trust, and He has never let me down yet, not once. So if I need to know something particular about His word, I can simply just ask Him.

Being that I have been with The Lord just over 30 years, I've never once had The Holy Spirit lead me into believing anything like you are promoting on here.

You don't have to believe me, you should believe your apostle Paul who tells you, which in my earlier post that you "liked"

Actually, if you understand what Paul was teaching us in the Body of Christ here in 2 Corinthians 5:16

16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

You will understand that we are not to follow Christ in the flesh (John 1:14, 1 John 4:2–3), in his earthly ministry to the nation of Israel (Matthew 15:24, Romans 15:8).

We are to follow Paul, as he follow Christ (1 Corinthians 11:1), which is after the ascended Christ. (Galatians 1:11-12)

Now, if you prefer not to do that, but rely on your experience in 1992, I understand as well, I am certainly not offended in any way, you are free to choose. =)

 

[Guojing]

Acts 2:23 NLT - "But God knew what would happen, and his prearranged plan was carried out when Jesus was betrayed. With the help of lawless Gentiles, you nailed him to a cross and killed him."

The whole world is the audience.

Ephesians 3:6 NLT - "And this is God's plan: Both Gentiles and Jews who believe the Good News share equally in the riches inherited by God's children. Both are part of the same body, and both enjoy the promise of blessings because they belong to Christ Jesus."

Do you know who Peter was addressing in Acts 2?

A clue is found in Acts 2:14 and Acts 2:36.

And Paul's revelation of the mystery in Ephesians 1-3 was certainly not that. If it was, there would be no need for Acts 15, and Peter's reaction to Cornelius would have been irrational.

 

[Jimmy It]

James 2:14

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Matthew 3;13
Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. 14 But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” 15 Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.

Now if someone has 2 minutes left to live and there is no time I do not believe God is going to be a stickler on this. Yet as Christ above stated, “it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.”

 

[Strong in Him]

For me, I am already impatient with folks that argue. I would rather just walk away, but it seems as though most are addicted to communicating, even if it means communicating in a way that demonstrates that we're not saved. It is this need to simply continue, post after post, of how right we are and how wrong "you" are, etc. To me, that is so boring and unproductive.

Yes.
Although I would add that there have been many times that my faith/position has been strengthened either because I've been debating with someone who thought differently, or because I've been trying to explain Scripture to someone who doesn't know.
There are several Bible references which I now know by heart because I've written them so many times.

Don't get me wrong, I used to do the same thing; I couldn't let things go.

Me too.
In fact, if the subject is something I feel passionate about, I still find it hard to walk away.

I also figure that if a person doesn't want to listen, it shows that they are not my true Brother or Sister.

Not sure about that.
I know how often people had to talk to me, share the Gospel and reason with me before it "sank in". Was I a true believer when I was just a (very) sincere church goer? I don't know. Had I died before I was given that understanding, it would have been for the Lord to judge.
It doesn't matter now in any case.

 

[Oneofhope]

Now, if you prefer not to do that, but rely on your experience in 1992, I understand as well, I am certainly not offended in any way, you are free to choose. =)

With all due respect, anyone who refers to experience the Power and Love of God . . . I would keep my ears particularly wide open.

That person wrote:
"The amount of love and power from Him was just amazing to me at that point."

A person who has experienced the Power of God, expressed in the form of Peace and Love . . . this experience gives a person a certain angle by which to read and interpret Scripture.