Baptism in Matthew 28:19.

[CherubRam]

In regards to baptism in Matthew 28:19.

I’m not speaking of Gnostic writings or scribal errors. As a matter of fact, some words in the originals are not translated because they would change the meaning of what we read.
As for what the Church Fathers believed, read this:

"The Demonstratio Evangelica" by Eusebius:
Eusebius of Caesarea. 265 ? AD.– 337 ? AD.

Eusebius was the Church historian and Bishop of Caesarea. On page 152 Eusebius quotes the early book of Matthew that he had in his library in Caesarea. Eusebius informs us of Jesus actual words to his disciples in the original text of Matthew 28:19.

Quote: "With one word and voice He said to His disciples: "Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all...

And again Eusebius for example, in Book III of his History, Chapter 5, Section 2, which is about the Jewish persecution of early Christians, we read:

"But the rest of the disciples, who had been incessantly plotted against with a view to their destruction, and had been driven out of the land of Judea, went to all nations to preach the good news, relying upon the power of Christ, who had said to them, "Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name."


And again, in his Oration in Praise of Emperor Constantine, Chapter 16, Section 8, we read:

"What king or prince in any age of the world, what philosopher, legislator or prophet, in civilized or barbarous lands, has attained so great a height of excellence, I say not after death, but while living still, and full of mighty power, as to fill the ears and tongues of all mankind with the praises of his name?
Surely none save our only Savior has done this, when, after his victory over death, he spoke these words to his followers, and fulfilled it by that event, saying to them, "Go ye and make disciples of all nations in my name."

The scripture Eusebius is quoting is not what we read today. We do find that his quote does agree with other scriptures.

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 4:12
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Acts 8:16
(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Acts 10:48
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Acts 19:4
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

Acts 19:5
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Romans 6:3
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

 

[CherubRam]

Bump​

• What, no comments?

 

[revrobor]

No comments because it's not quite clear what you want. You appear to be a Roman Catholic asking about a Roman Catholic book. You should take this to the Catholic forum. BTW Matt. 28:19 reads the same in my Bible.

 

[michaelG1949]

Wycliff didn't trust the latin translations so he went back to the origenal and retranslated. his says in Matt. 28:19 the Father,Son,and Holy Ghost

 

[OldStudent]

To baptize is to immerse.

There is a learning environment for learning a language - immersion. You go into an environment where all you hear is the new language. It may be simplified but you are immersed in it. The old language remains outside the doors.

There is no water in Matthew 28:19. We are given power of attourney to do God's business of making disciples by immersing those around us in the name - the love, grace, power - of the fulness of God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). Once they are drawn to God through us then, THEN, the table is set to teach the details (vs 20).

 

[michaelG1949]

i have to agree that matt 28:19 doesn't specifically mention water. and i agree that many people need to be exposed to the good news or immersed in it for awhile. but that doesn't negate the fact tha as the apostles carried out Jesus last words, the listeners were usually immediately baptized with water as Jesus himself was. but hopefully being a light we will draw people to us who will then want to obey Jesus also.

 

[OldStudent]

i have to agree that matt 28:19 doesn't specifically mention water. and i agree that many people need to be exposed to the good news or immersed in it for awhile. but that doesn't negate the fact tha as the apostles carried out Jesus last words, the listeners were usually immediately baptized with water as Jesus himself was. but hopefully being a light we will draw people to us who will then want to obey Jesus also.

You are right. Water baptism follows as a public statement of commitment to Jesus when they are won by Him through us because of Him being seen through us. I didn't mean to down play water baptism.

 

[Albion]

You are right. Water baptism follows as a public statement of commitment to Jesus when they are won by Him through us because of Him being seen through us. I didn't mean to down play water baptism.

Baptism is with water.

Immersion is one of several means of applying it.

Baptism is "for the remission of sins."

When it is said to do something "in the name of" it means "by the authority of," not the stating of a given name. For example, "Stop in the name of the law" does not mean yelling "law, law" at a robber.

 

[OldStudent]

Baptism is with water.

Be careful of cultural isogesis - bringing an understanding to a passage because that is the way we have always been taught. In my previous posts I am observing that there is an understanding enbeded in the passage that is generally missed. Letting the passage say what it says (exogesis), we best make disciples for Him by BEING His disciples in that we surround (immerse) all (be they fellow disciples, those innocent of the Kingdom, or active detractors) with qualities of God's love, grace, power, and (yes) authority (as you say below). His own example is to be observed.

Immersion is one of several means of applying it.

Am I missing something? Is there a way of being immersed without being immersed? Is there precident from the Apostles for other means of applying it?

Baptism is "for the remission of sins."

Agreed. The water baptism (immersion) follows accepting immersion in the love, grace, authority (power) of God. Public immersion follows conviction of need, recognizing forgiveness and remission has been/is being extended and accepted.

When it is said to do something "in the name of" it means "by the authority of," not the stating of a given name. For example, "Stop in the name of the law" does not mean yelling "law, law" at a robber.

If I conveyed that mere use of terms was sufficient I indeed misspoke.

Wheew. Sometimes being called on detail puts glasses on our view of an idea. Thanks.

 

[Albion]

Be careful of cultural isogesis - bringing an understanding to a passage because that is the way we have always been taught.

That's a comforting theory, I am sure, but my answers are all based upon Scripture. Your subscription to a reappraisal of historic Christianity in this regard may, however, be a cultural matter.

In my previous posts I am observing that there is an understanding enbeded in the passage that is generally missed. Letting the passage say what it says (exogesis), we best make disciples for Him by BEING His disciples in that we surround (immerse) all (be they fellow disciples, those innocent of the Kingdom, or active detractors) with qualities of God's love, grace, power, and (yes) authority (as you say below). His own example is to be observed.

I have no problem with that.

Am I missing something?

Sure. You are correct, but only as far as you have gone. IOW, you have defined Baptism entirely by only one of its characteristics. That is what I meant to address in my previous post.

Is there a way of being immersed without being immersed? Is there precident from the Apostles for other means of applying it?

Absolutely there is precedent. There are numerous indications in scripture that other than immersion was used.

Agreed. The water baptism (immersion) follows accepting immersion in the love, grace, authority (power) of God.

That analogy is your own, however.

Wheew. Sometimes being called on detail puts glasses on our view of an idea. Thanks.

Yeh, that's exactly what we think when we are confronted by Christians who insist upon just the one way of having water touch the candidate, as though that makes it a valid Baptism to the exclusion of any other. And most of them are not consistent anyway, in that they are entirely satisfied with a swimming pool, either in or out of the church, instead of using living water.

 

[michaelG1949]

another 2cents from me. i've always believed that when God directed men to write the scriptures, that being the loving God he is, that if a man was all alone and found a bible, he wouldn't need a theologian to tell him how to be saved. Gods peace be with you

 

[greatdivide46]

another 2cents from me. i've always believed that when God directed men to write the scriptures, that being the loving God he is, that if a man was all alone and found a bible, he wouldn't need a theologian to tell him how to be saved. Gods peace be with you

I agree with you. That's why I don't understand how someone who understands English can read Matthew 28:19 and think that there is no water in that verse. The word baptism, when used in this sense, always implies water.

 

[OldStudent]

Absolutely there is precedent. There are numerous indications in scripture that other than immersion was used.

Can you point out some of those indications of baptism by modes other than immersion? A statement like that without examples is an empty claim. I look forward to your assistance.

As for my observation on a contextual application of baptize/immerse, it has become a valuable perspective on how I approach evangelism and general social intercourse. It has been a delightful discovery uncovered in a word study. Is it a personal perspective? Likely. Is it wrong? If so, how so? I may have overstated in saying "there is NO water in this passage." Can we say that there is much there beyond water?

For some 60 years I have been part of a tradition that has focused on the teaching (an unfortnate KJV rendition in vs 19) of vs 20 by trying to be convincing rather than winsome. We have not done so well at teaching the doctrines as expressions of the graces of God's love. This has helped me as a correction to that aberation. I am hoping to learn how to present the expressions of His love in a more palatable manner. If I miss I remain open to correction.

 

[Albion]

Can you point out some of those indications of baptism by modes other than immersion

Yes, but it would take so long to do it well. "There is much water here" refers to a series of shallow pools unsuitable for immersion, so that baptismal mode had to be affusion or something like it. Jesus' own baptism is often misrepresented by Christians of certain traditions as immersion because they wrongly interpret "came up out of the water" to mean "from beneath the waves" when it really refers to his ascending the banks of the river from the river (the "up from"), and so on.

I may have overstated in saying "there is NO water in this passage." Can we say that there is much there beyond water?

Yes.

 

[michaelG1949]

we once had a youth minister who was greek. they still use the word baptizo ln relation to washing, bathing and they wouldn't get their dishes very clean or rinsed if they only put half of it in the water

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Water baptism is an ordinance given by our Lord Jesus, but I don't believe He gave it to be a point of contention among believers. The thief on the cross was never baptized, yet he was with our Lord Jesus in Paradise. In Acts 10 Cornelius and his household received the baptism in the Holy Ghost before he and his even received water baptism.

 

[michaelG1949]

i agree, don't mean to be contentious

 

[OldStudent]

Water baptism is an ordinance given by our Lord Jesus, but I don't believe He gave it to be a point of contention among believers. The thief on the cross was never baptized, yet he was with our Lord Jesus in Paradise. In Acts 10 Cornelius and his household received the baptism in the Holy Ghost before he and his even received water baptism.

You are right. God never gives any instruction for the sake of contention. The contention comes when our desires or preconceptions cross His. Jesus did not shy away from contention or back down when an issue jusified it. He even set the table for argument on occasion. While the model for water baptism is fairly well established by recorded accounts I am not ready to say the mode of baptism is a fulcrum point on which destiny hinges.

 

[OldStudent]

Yes, but it would take so long to do it well. "There is much water here" refers to a series of shallow pools unsuitable for immersion, so that baptismal mode had to be affusion or something like it. Jesus' own baptism is often misrepresented by Christians of certain traditions as immersion because they wrongly interpret "came up out of the water" to mean "from beneath the waves" when it really refers to his ascending the banks of the river from the river (the "up from"), and so on.

Rom 6:3, 4 "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

Col 2:12 "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."

A puddle the size of a casket and 16" deep is sufficient for burial. Other than that footwashing is the only lesser symbolic washing I have found recognized by Jesus (John 13). That too is a right established by Jesus and expected to be carried on. But that is an event often not exercised in Christian fellowships.

I'm sorry, some commentaries don't hold water.

 

[Albion]

Rom 6:3, 4 "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

Col 2:12 "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."

A puddle the size of a casket and 16" deep is sufficient for burial. Other than that footwashing is the only lesser symbolic washing I have found recognized by Jesus (John 13). That too is a right established by Jesus and expected to be carried on. But that is an event often not exercised in Christian fellowships.

I gave you Biblical facts (as requested), and you gave me romantic interpretations based upon metaphors.

If you are this committed to them, how come you didn't also advocate ritual suicide, considering that Jesus also compared Baptism to death?