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Clowns are a red herring and have nothing to do with the topic at hand.That was uncalled for.
I suppose you just loved the clown service that the Episcopalians did?
(I always find it amusing when Baptists want to use this statement against Lutherans, considering that Luther is using this as an argument for baptismal regeneration, but that's beside the point...)Hence it is indeed correct to say that baptism washes sins away, but that expression is too weak and mild to bring out the full significance of baptism, which is rather a symbol of death and resurrection. For this reason I would have the candidates for baptism completely immersed in the water, as the word says and as the sacrament signifies. Not that I deem this necessary, but it would be well to give to so perfect and complete a thing a perfect and complete sign. Thus it was also doubtless instituted by Christ.
Clowns are a red herring and have nothing to do with the topic at hand.
There are three issues here:
As for the mode of baptism, it is an adiaphoron: sprinkling, pouring, immersing are all valid. If this woman has confessed Christ, and has confessed a proper understanding of baptism, then she is in no way, shape, or form out of line in requesting to be immersed. For anyone to suggest that she is behaving incorrectly is to return to the Babylonian Captivity, i.e., "If you're really Lutheran, you'll do it the way we all did it!"
- The mode of baptism
- The place of baptism
- Celebrating after the baptism
Bollocks!
Speaking of Babylonian Captivity, someone earlier pointed out that Luther himself preferred immersion, which is true. The relevant citation is from paragraph 23 of section three of On the Babylonian Captivity of the Church:
(I always find it amusing when Baptists want to use this statement against Lutherans, considering that Luther is using this as an argument for baptismal regeneration, but that's beside the point...)
As for the place, well, Lutheran architecture being what it is, immersion is generally out of the question, since we don't include baptismal pools in our churches. That leaves another Church or some other body of water. Since there is no Biblical mandate requiring that anyone be baptized in a sacred space (doing things in an "orderly" manner can in no way be equated with "in a sacred space"), and in fact there are many baptisms done in odd places (rivers, homes (Acts 10), in random bodies of water by the side of the road (Acts 8), possibly in a jail (Acts 15)), then we can only conclude that the place of baptism is also an adiaphoron.
As for the timing of the event, I turn back to Luke 15. The shepherd doesn't even go back to round up his other 99 sheep before he invites his friends to celebrate. There has been nothing in TCat's description which imply everyone will be hanging out in their speedos and bikinis drinking margaritas while her friend is being dunked. You have imputed that mental picture (or something like it) to the situation, with absolutely no evidence to back it up. That is most certainly not putting the best construction on things.
It's just my opinion, but I think you are picking where there are no nits.
What does irreverent mean in this case? For whatever reason, the woman desires to be immersed. I am attempting to put the best construction on it when I suggest that she shares with Luther an appreciation for the symbology of immersion.My problem with this was never immersion. It was always her reasoning for it, and where it was being held.
It seems somewhat irreverent to hold such a sacred (yes, I consider baptism sacred) thing in a backyard pool.
Well, the problem as I see it is that people misread TCat's initial post, and then berated her for something she never said. For example:This isn't anything against the person having the baptism at her house, it's not really even against the woman wishing to have the baptism, unless her motives aren't pure, and I guess WE will never know for sure.
to which DaRev saidTCat in the OP said:What about a baptism and celebration afterward in my backyard.
This is a complete mischaracterization of what Tcat said. DaRev then had the temerity to suggest that TCat was the one misreading people's posts:DaRev in post #10 said:It is the work of God that both forgives sins by the regenerative washing and rebirth, and also is the means by which a person becomes a member of the body of Christ, thus should be performed in the Church before God and not in the midst of a pool party.
It doesn't seem that you are actually reading anything that is being posted. I suggest you go back through the thread and read what people are actually saying.
DaRev was mocked for what he wrote, but what he wrote IS the truth. Whether people will be swimming in the pool or not, the idea is that the people attending the baptism understand what is going on.
Ouch.Take heart DaRev...
There are those of us who possess enough brains to understand where you're coming from and the point that you are trying to make.
I may sometimes think you fasten your collar too tight...
Ya know... that might explain a number of things.
]Makes it hard to swallow beer...
I agree the place makes no never mind in my opinion. If the person being baptized understands what they are doing and have made a confession of faith the location is irrevelant. It is nice to have the body of Christ (the church) there to witness this rite and to pray with and support the new Believer. As far as I am concerned that is "in the Church" that Da Rev wished. Two of my sons were batized in the ocean along with seveal others from our church and several from other fellowships in our community. It was awesome. COLD but awesome. ggWhat does irreverent mean in this case? For whatever reason, the woman desires to be immersed. I am attempting to put the best construction on it when I suggest that she shares with Luther an appreciation for the symbology of immersion.
Of course, no one here has said that baptism is not sacred; in fact, it's the one thing I think we've all agreed on. Your discomfort appears to lie in the location. But I ask you, in what sacred space were the 3000 in Jerusalem baptized on Pentecost (Acts 2)? Jerusalem had no sacred space in which Christians worshipped yet, and Jerusalem has no river or large body of water. Chances are they used some local wealthy person's water supply (water pots), and did it on his property. Or in front of some merchant's shop.
The Ethiopian eunuch was baptized in a ditch by the side of the road. The Phillipian jailer and his family may have been baptized right there in the jail (since his living quarters were most likely on the premises.)
As long as proper rites are observed, I'm failing to see the issue here.
Well, the problem as I see it is that people misread TCat's initial post, and then berated her for something she never said. For example:
to which DaRev said
This is a complete mischaracterization of what Tcat said. DaRev then had the temerity to suggest that TCat was the one misreading people's posts:
Oh, I wouldn't characterize it as mocking...more like teasing, or an elbow-in-the-ribs. A little bit of sarcastic reductio ad absurdum. But hey, at least I didn't say he was brainless:
Ouch.
BUT...
DaRev, if in fact you took what I said as mocking you, first of all, I assure you that was not my intent. I apologize. In fact, I would go so far as to say that I couldn't mock you, because I have far too much respect for you. I may sometimes think you fasten your collar too tight, but I still and always respect you.
Pax Christi tibi,
Kepler
Finally set a date for the baptism, shees, everyone has been gone all summer.
We will be gathering in my backyard on Aug. 11 for her baptism, I'll let you know how is goes!
I don't see a problem with doing a baptism in a pool, so long as all involved understand what is taking place. I always thought it would be great to do baptisms in a river or stream. Seems more like a connection to God's creation that way. Ordinary water created by God combined with the awesome power of God's word.
I don't see a problem with doing a baptism in a pool, so long as all involved understand what is taking place. I always thought it would be great to do baptisms in a river or stream. Seems more like a connection to God's creation that way. Ordinary water created by God combined with the awesome power of God's word.
In any case, as I have said before, regardless, the angels in heaven will rejoice over the one sinner who repents.
Not sure what you are saying here. It seems that you are saying (Hey we're NOT those misguided ***! we do it our way) I think the important thing is to do it God"s Way. We know Jesus was in the Jordan river. Was he laid backwards under the water or did he have water poured over his head. Does it really matter?What nonsense?
Most of Christianity practice a lower view of Baptism as if it were not a Sacrament. For some reason they can't imagine the Lord's Supper anywhere but in the church, but they do baptize in bath-tubes, swimming pools or whatever exotic place they can think of because this is more of an "event" then a sacrament.
The issue at hand is not so much the location, but the reverance and understanding of what is behind the act of baptism.
Doing it outside the church is a huge distraction and does give a false witness of what we preach, teach and believe concerning the sacrament.
To many, they don't care about things like that, even many pastors wouldn't care.
But they should. We all should care about what practice says to the world and to each other. Our practice should reflect what we teach and confess.
While we do confess that the amount of water doesn't matter, we also do confess that we do not practice what the Baptists practice, nor do we believe what they believe and we should not confuse anyone because what God does in this sacrament is the most awesome thing besides the incarnation/crucifixion/resurrection.
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