baptism a symbol?

Avid

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... there may have been a time when someone was not able to get baptized for various reasons, and died without having this done. Hence, we have a unique thing in scripture that is written by the Apostle Paul.

In those days, one may expect Baptism to be accepting a death sentence from worldly religion and/or government...

... I'm certainly not denying its by faith. Everyone has access to water or they will die, but certainly not everyone has access to a body of water for immersion. My brother has been to places where they baptized in a tarp and if authorities came through they put the kids in to play in the water.
It is not just that there be water, or sufficient depth of water. At various times, and places, people would be converted, and quickly imprisoned and eventually put to death. There is also, the case of the very old who had waited for the promises of the Old Testament, and were not able to be baptized or died before arrangements were made. These things are likely why the Apostle Paul wrote that passage in I Cor.15:29.

If being baptized was a death sentence, then being baptized multiple times was no walk in the park. Each time, the person would be publicly identified with Christ and the Church. These things were odious to the Jews of the day, and each Jewish person who defied their religious leaders in this manner was targeted for persecution.

I'm not saying a no baptized person can't be saved, based on what Scripture, but a attitude of, "I said a prayer, I don't need baptism" won't save. In a sense, from what I gather from Scripture, baptism does save.
Baptism is obedience to God, and Christ. It is required, and that is stated plainly in scripture. That there is an element of symbolism is not unique, nor is it contrary to scripture to see symbolism (sometimes called a "Type.")

This is a Type, a Symbol, and it is DEFINITELY required obedience. This does not defy scripture, though we are not told this in so many words. Our faith is shown by obedience. It is not that this is Work that pays any of our debt to God, or is useful in paving a way to get to God, but that we are told simply and plainly what to do and how to behave.

It is a great bother to me that people will do as you have quoted here. Most Churches will gladly accept that, and there is no change in the person as evidence that God worked in them at all. When I was told to say or do something in Church, I was obedient, but grew out of that when I saw and heard how the people running the Church lived. that is a whole different subject, and most people are not interested in exploring that. I started a Thread called "Chastisement" that is intended to touch on that and other issues not handled much in Churches these days.

Im not sure whether this is considered an outward confession of faith either. Scripture doesn't elude to this either. Matthew 10 doesn't tie itself to baptism, but certainly a possible alluding to baptism. I'm not sure its a best fit to prove such.
Again, irt is obedience, and it is submission to the command of Christ. Matt 10 shows the importance in general, and Baptism qualifies as such. It is not stated simply as being that, but the idea does no violence to those scriptures, and the principle of not denying the LORD is upheld.

One other thing, I'm not asking in a way condemning Baptist baptism because of the symbolic reference. Calling it symbolic, or even God mysteriously in the water for our salvation(Yes, this is my current stance based on Scripture and I now how infants should be baptized since they are born with original sin), changes what happens. Salvation.
Not sure where you get anything from scripture about infant baptism or that this has anything to do with original sin.

Baptism into Christ is not something that can be done without the Repentance that comes with it. It shows the Work of Christ in the heart. The washing of water, according to Paul, is good for getting off the dirt of this world, but cannot cleanse the soul. It is symbolic to a point, but it must be an act of obedience that follows repentance to have ANY significance in salvation.

Matthew 3
7 ¶ But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Acts 26
20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
Infants cannot do that.
 
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DeaconDean

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DeaconDean,

Thanks for the reply. I think I can see where your stance comes from, given the wording of Romans 6:3-4. It seems your focus is on the "like", am I correct? If so, why not the very first part of this verse? The very beginning doesn't appear to support baptism is symbolic.

You also asked,
"Were you actually there in AD 33 when Jesus died and died with Him?"
and,
"Were you actually there in AD 33 when He arose from the dead and arose with Him?"
Yes. Romans 6 says I am buried with him in his death by baptism.

The issue I have with your answer is you have included the term "symbolic" without any demonstrative proof the Scripture is intending the word "symbolic" to be used.

:sigh:

John Leland Dagg, wrote:

The faith which we profess in baptism is faith in Christ; and the ceremony significantly represents the great work of Christ, on which our faith relies for salvation. We confess with the mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in the heart that God has raised him from the dead.(174) His burial and resurrection are exhibited in baptism, as his broken body and shed blood are exhibited in the supper. In both ordinances our faith is directed to the sacrifice of Christ. Under the name of sacraments they have been considered outward signs of inward grace; and, in this view of them, they signify the work of the Holy Spirit within us. But faith relies, for acceptance with God, on the work of Christ. It is a perverted gospel which substitutes the work of the Spirit for the work of Christ as the object of our faith; and it is a perverted baptism which represents the faith that we profess, as directed, not to the work of Christ, the proper object of faith, but to the work of the Holy Spirit in our hearts.

In the parallel passage referred to in Colossians, the expression is “Buried with him in baptism.” The word baptism stands without adjuncts. It is not baptism into death; but simply baptism. If the word baptism, thus standing alone, can signify something wholly moral, it will be difficult to reject the Quaker interpretation of these passages, and of “baptizing” in the commission. In the preceding verse, circumcision is mentioned; but that we may know physical circumcision not to be intended, it is expressly called “the circumcision made without hands;” and “the circumcision of Christ.” No such guard against misinterpretation attends the mention of baptism; and when it is recollected that Christians are not bound to receive physical circumcision, but are bound to receive physical baptism, we must conclude that physical baptism is here intended. The completeness of Christians requires the moral change denoted by circumcision, and also the obedience rendered in physical baptism. In all who are thus complete, this physical act is performed “in faith of the operation of God.” This passage does not, like that in Romans, deduce moral obligation from baptism; and, therefore, the word should is not introduced: but it affirms the completeness of true believers in their internal moral change, and in their very significant outward profession of it.

If there is no resemblance between immersion and Christ’s burial, the passage before us contains no allusion. If the resemblance is so slight, that but few persons are able to perceive it, the probability is, that the supposed allusion exists only in the fancy of those who imagine they see it. But if men have generally believed that allusion exists in the passage, the fact goes far to prove, that there is resemblance.
Have men generally believed in the existence of the supposed allusion? It is not necessary to examine the writings of authors attached to every different creed, and differing from each other in their views of baptism. Professor Stuart tells us their opinion in few words: “Most commentators have maintained, that sunetaphemen has here a necessary reference to the mode of literal baptism, which they say, was by immersion; and this, they think, affords ground for the employment of the image used by the apostle, because immersion (under water) may be compared to burial (under the earth). It is difficult, perhaps, to procure a patient rehearing for this subject, so long regarded by some as being out of fair dispute.” Now this general agreement of commentators, answers the objection which we are considering, far more successfully than any efforts of ours to point out the resemblance, which these commentators have perceived. The fact that it is seen is the best proof that it exists. The Scripture nowhere affirms that Paul, in this passage, alluded to a resemblance between immersion and Christ’s burial; and, therefore, “the common exegesis” cannot be sustained by positive proof from Scripture; but it finds proof, the best proof that the nature of the case admits, in the fact that men generally have seen and felt the allusion.
Although positive proof of the common exegesis cannot be found in Scripture, a circumstantial proof may be drawn from the passage itself, amounting to little less than full demonstration. After making mention of baptism into Christ’s death, Paul, before he refers to Christ’s resurrection, goes out of the usual course to speak of Christ’s burial. This was not necessary for the moral instruction which he designed to convey, if nothing but moral conformity to Christ’s death was intended. It was not necessary for the purpose of finding an antithesis to the resurrection of Christ. The Scriptures usually speak of Christ’s rising from the dead, not from the grave: and his death is the common antithesis to his resurrection. An example occurs in the present chapter, “If we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.” In Colossians, after the passage “Buried with him in baptism,” the antithesis is again made, between the death (not the burial) of Christ, and his resurrection: “Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ, from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, &c.”(175) “If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above,” &c. “For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.”(176) Why did the apostle step out of the usual course, in two different passages to mention the burial of Christ? and to mention it in connection with baptism? It cannot be accounted for if the common exegesis be rejected.
The objection states that little resemblance can be found between immersion and Christ’s burial: and the same might be said with respect to the resemblance between a loaf of bread, and the body of Christ. A well executed picture of the crucifixion, such as may be seen in Catholic chapels, has much more resemblance to the body of Christ, than is furnished by a piece of bread; yet, considering all the ends to be answered by the Eucharist, the divine wisdom has determined that we should keep Christ’s death in memory, not by looking at a crucifix, but by the eating of bread. In like manner, some means might have been devised for representing the burial and resurrection of Christ, supplying a nearer resemblance than is furnished by immersion in water. But when we consider that baptism not only represents the burial and resurrection of Christ, but also our fellowship with him in both, and the consequent removal or washing away of our guilt, nothing could more conveniently, aptly, and instructively accomplish all these ends at once.

TABLES OF EXAMPLES | Founders

In 1742, Baptists in America said:

Baptism is an ordinance of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus Christ, to be unto the party baptised, a sign of his fellowship with Him in His death and resurrection; of his being engrafted into Him;1 of remission of sins;2 and of his giving up unto God, through Jesus Christ, to live and walk in newness of life.3

Source

In 1833, they said:

Of Baptism and the Lord's Supper We believe that Christian Baptism is the immersion in water of a believer, into the name of the Father, and Son, and Holy Ghost; to show forth, in a solemn and beautiful emblem, our faith in the crucified, buried, and risen Saviour, with its effect in our death to sin and resurrection to a new life;

Source

In 1858, it was said:

Baptism is an ordinance of the Lord Jesus, obligatory upon every believer, wherein he is immersed in water in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, as a sign of his fellowship with the death and resurrection of Christ, of remission of sins, and of his giving himself up to God, to live and walk in newness of life.

Source

In 1925, the first Baptist Faith and Message of Southern Baptists, they said:

Christian baptism is the immersion of a believer in water in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The act is a symbol of our faith in a crucified, buried and risen Saviour.

I see nothing that goes against what I have said previously.

In see it as symbolic, our Baptist forefathers saw it as symbolic, scripture points in that direction also.

But hey, what do I know?

I'm outta here.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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Added for clairification:

The Baptist Faith and Message of 2000 states:

VII. Baptism and the Lord's Supper

Christian baptism is the immersion of a believer in water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is an act of obedience symbolizing the believer's faith in a crucified, buried, and risen Saviour, the believer's death to sin, the burial of the old life, and the resurrection to walk in newness of life in Christ Jesus. It is a testimony to his faith in the final resurrection of the dead.

Link

I'm outta here.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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pilgrim42

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As I've stated, since I'm fairly new to Christianforums, I am a lifelong Baptist, still belong to a Baptist church, but listening to Lutheran podcasts have caused me to relook at the Baptist faith with more inspection at certain aspects.

The Baptist official statement, at least SBC, is




Where in Scripture does the denomination find baptism is a symbol? I've read the verses they gave and none allude to a symbol. Why do Baptist state it is?

The denomination that I grew up in had almost the same stand on Baptism that the SBC has. The one big exception was that they would let the candidate decide on the mode of Baptism. 90% of the time it was immersion.

Perhaps the Didache has it right. It was written when the Apostles were still alive. It said that believers were baptized by immersion, but if that wasn't possible they could be sprinkled or poured.

Also, in the Early Church they didn't know of an unbaptized believer. Almost everyone was baptized immediately. It seems that they came awfully close to considering it regenerational baptism because of its necessity. Well, it may not actually save because only faith can do that, but it does seem to be an initial work of faith. It ties the believer into the body of Christ in a visible way.

It would be great to see the ceremony expanded to include the questions that have been used in the past about their decision to follow Christ. I don't remember all the questions, but one was "Do you renounce the Devil and all his works?" "Will you give up the world and all it's pleasures?" These now believers need to understand what their new faith involves. We have more than our share of "cheap grace" members. Being a Christian means we surrender everything for our savior, who gave us all He had. Let's put more into baptism than just a symbol.

Ken :prayer:
 
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greatdivide46

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I, too, attend a Southern Baptist Church and went through the same questioning of Baptist doctrine concerning baptism. I agree with you, mikedsjr, that there is some kind of disconnect between Baptist doctrine and what the Bible teaches regarding baptism.

One thing I've noticed about the Baptist plan of salvation is that each step is backed-up by Scripture until you get to the end where it says to pray this prayer if you believe. Of all the copies of the Baptist plan of salvation I've seen in print, none of them have any scripture to support this prayer and none of them ever mention baptism except as a sort of add-on after you're already saved. I don't believe that's what the Bible teaches about baptism.
 
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DeaconDean

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One thing I've noticed about the Baptist plan of salvation is that each step is backed-up by Scripture until you get to the end where it says to pray this prayer if you believe.


Are you speaking of the "Sinners Prayer"?

Or the "altar call"?

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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