louis booth
well, you believe scripture teaches that, i do not.
believe me, i trust the scripture over anything else i dont doubt it in the least.
i see why you think it teaches that, but i really dont see it teaching that at all.
ephesains 2.8
salvation is the gift not of ourselves, not grace.
"...are ye saved, THROUGH FAITH: and not of yourselves"
its saying grace is the pathway unto the gift that isnt of ourselves, grace isnt the gift not of ourselves.
i said
"IF GOD PUTS FAITH IN PEOPLE. then i guess HE CHOSE FOR THE ONES WHO DONT HAVE FAITH TO GO HELL? "
you said
"This is a faulty statement. I don't believe in DOUBLE predesenation but I do believe in predesination."
i dont know why you think that statement is faulty. it is exactly what you are saying.
1.you believe that salvation is a completely independant work of the lord. (that our choice had no part in it)
2.so the determining thing would be whether or not GOD CHOOSES TO CREATE FAITH IN YOU AND CAUSE YOU TO SEEK HIM (totally independent of your own will or actions)
3.so, the only thing that is diffrent between me and the most evil of sinner THAT IS IN HELL NOW is simply that GOD MADE ME GET SAVED AND NOT HIM. (becuase your saying i had nothing to do with it anyway)
so, when a sinner dies and goes to hell. as all sinners must.
the only reason he will have gone there is simply becuase GOD DIDNT CHOOSE TO SAVE HIM. becuase you think GOD CHOOSING TO SAVE US IS THE ONLY DETERMINING THING.
so, what you teach DOES mean that god sends people to hell ententionally.
OR DO YOU NOT BELIEVE ANYONE IS REALLY IN HELL?
there certainly are people in hell as the bible clearly says.
and the bible says that gods will and plan is FOR ALL TO BE SAVED.
how did these people slip OUT of the plan of god? as you say cannot be done.
ok, pharaoh.
i myself in the last the 2 or 3 days have learned more about that situation, through my mother and my mentors.
romans 9.17,18
for the scripture sayeth unto pharaoh, even for this same purpose have i raised the up, that i might show my power in thee and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
therefor hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he will hardeneth.
that could be taken to mean,
THAT GOD SIMPLY CONTROLLED PHARAOH AND THAT GOD CONTROLLED PHARAOHS HEART SO THAT PHARAOH WOULDNT HUMBLE HIMSELF.
but it does not mean that. (it couldnt mean that and harmonise with the rest of scripture)
throughout the chapter we read of JACOB, ESAU, PHARAOH, MERCY, HARDENING.
it is simply saying that when god looks at our lives, and sees the way we are, it is not unrightouse for him to judge us. if he thinks we deserve punishment, then he can punish us, he is God. if he thinks we deserve mercy, he can show mercy, he is God. and no man can say to god that he has been dealt wrongly with, for God created all things and can do as he pleases with his creation.
IT IS NOT SAYING GOD SIMPLY DAMNS SOME, AND HAS MERCY ON CERTAIN OTHERS REGARDLESS OF OUR ACTIONS.
the only sense in which the lord HARDEND Pharaoh was in giving him the choice to harden his own heart or obey.
many times god is said to do the things that he simply PERMITS to be done.
god gave pharaoh the occasion to resist him and harden his own heart in the same way that the gospel saves or damns, makes alive or kills all who hear it today. any judgment or calamity which does not break the nature and subdue the life only hardens it. as the sun hardens clay and softens the wax so it is with truth. the result is not the sun,(or in god) but in the material.
2cor 2.15-17 says that WE (ministers of the gospel) are a sweet smelling perfume unto god in those who are saved, and in those who are not saved. to one we are a savor of death, to another we are a savor of life.
it simply means that hearing the gospel will either make you alive or damn you. but it is up to you. it destroyed pharaoh as it does to all who dont harken. he didnt hearken to it, SO IT HARDENED HIM. as he disobeyed more and more it hardened him more and more causing him to not let the people go. but it was a result of his own actions in union with the spoken word of god. the lord didnt simply control him, to not them go.
god doesnt make some die, and some live unless it is the justice deserved by their actions. he gives all men the chance and ability to obey him and find life, as is his will, becuase scripture does that say that is his will.
rom 2.11
for THERE IS NO RESPECTER OF PERSONS WITH GOD.
you said
"I'm treating you as a mature christian, should I not?"
but you also said
"Wow, so God doesn't already know? Umm..wrong-o!! "
you do not see me as a mature christian or treating me with respect.
you said
"I wouldn't talk this way to a nonbeliever..this is the WORKSHOP not the roundtables."
they will want to understand the basics of your belief before they accept your belief.
and if they asked you, you would need to tell them, whether you are in these forums or not.
i dont recall any belief of myne that i couldnt not explain to an unbeliever without fearing their rejection. becuase god is a good god, and he is good to all peoples.
well, you believe scripture teaches that, i do not.
believe me, i trust the scripture over anything else i dont doubt it in the least.
i see why you think it teaches that, but i really dont see it teaching that at all.
ephesains 2.8
salvation is the gift not of ourselves, not grace.
"...are ye saved, THROUGH FAITH: and not of yourselves"
its saying grace is the pathway unto the gift that isnt of ourselves, grace isnt the gift not of ourselves.
i said
"IF GOD PUTS FAITH IN PEOPLE. then i guess HE CHOSE FOR THE ONES WHO DONT HAVE FAITH TO GO HELL? "
you said
"This is a faulty statement. I don't believe in DOUBLE predesenation but I do believe in predesination."
i dont know why you think that statement is faulty. it is exactly what you are saying.
1.you believe that salvation is a completely independant work of the lord. (that our choice had no part in it)
2.so the determining thing would be whether or not GOD CHOOSES TO CREATE FAITH IN YOU AND CAUSE YOU TO SEEK HIM (totally independent of your own will or actions)
3.so, the only thing that is diffrent between me and the most evil of sinner THAT IS IN HELL NOW is simply that GOD MADE ME GET SAVED AND NOT HIM. (becuase your saying i had nothing to do with it anyway)
so, when a sinner dies and goes to hell. as all sinners must.
the only reason he will have gone there is simply becuase GOD DIDNT CHOOSE TO SAVE HIM. becuase you think GOD CHOOSING TO SAVE US IS THE ONLY DETERMINING THING.
so, what you teach DOES mean that god sends people to hell ententionally.
OR DO YOU NOT BELIEVE ANYONE IS REALLY IN HELL?
there certainly are people in hell as the bible clearly says.
and the bible says that gods will and plan is FOR ALL TO BE SAVED.
how did these people slip OUT of the plan of god? as you say cannot be done.
ok, pharaoh.
i myself in the last the 2 or 3 days have learned more about that situation, through my mother and my mentors.
romans 9.17,18
for the scripture sayeth unto pharaoh, even for this same purpose have i raised the up, that i might show my power in thee and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
therefor hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he will hardeneth.
that could be taken to mean,
THAT GOD SIMPLY CONTROLLED PHARAOH AND THAT GOD CONTROLLED PHARAOHS HEART SO THAT PHARAOH WOULDNT HUMBLE HIMSELF.
but it does not mean that. (it couldnt mean that and harmonise with the rest of scripture)
throughout the chapter we read of JACOB, ESAU, PHARAOH, MERCY, HARDENING.
it is simply saying that when god looks at our lives, and sees the way we are, it is not unrightouse for him to judge us. if he thinks we deserve punishment, then he can punish us, he is God. if he thinks we deserve mercy, he can show mercy, he is God. and no man can say to god that he has been dealt wrongly with, for God created all things and can do as he pleases with his creation.
IT IS NOT SAYING GOD SIMPLY DAMNS SOME, AND HAS MERCY ON CERTAIN OTHERS REGARDLESS OF OUR ACTIONS.
the only sense in which the lord HARDEND Pharaoh was in giving him the choice to harden his own heart or obey.
many times god is said to do the things that he simply PERMITS to be done.
god gave pharaoh the occasion to resist him and harden his own heart in the same way that the gospel saves or damns, makes alive or kills all who hear it today. any judgment or calamity which does not break the nature and subdue the life only hardens it. as the sun hardens clay and softens the wax so it is with truth. the result is not the sun,(or in god) but in the material.
2cor 2.15-17 says that WE (ministers of the gospel) are a sweet smelling perfume unto god in those who are saved, and in those who are not saved. to one we are a savor of death, to another we are a savor of life.
it simply means that hearing the gospel will either make you alive or damn you. but it is up to you. it destroyed pharaoh as it does to all who dont harken. he didnt hearken to it, SO IT HARDENED HIM. as he disobeyed more and more it hardened him more and more causing him to not let the people go. but it was a result of his own actions in union with the spoken word of god. the lord didnt simply control him, to not them go.
god doesnt make some die, and some live unless it is the justice deserved by their actions. he gives all men the chance and ability to obey him and find life, as is his will, becuase scripture does that say that is his will.
rom 2.11
for THERE IS NO RESPECTER OF PERSONS WITH GOD.
you said
"I'm treating you as a mature christian, should I not?"
but you also said
"Wow, so God doesn't already know? Umm..wrong-o!! "
you do not see me as a mature christian or treating me with respect.
you said
"I wouldn't talk this way to a nonbeliever..this is the WORKSHOP not the roundtables."
they will want to understand the basics of your belief before they accept your belief.
and if they asked you, you would need to tell them, whether you are in these forums or not.
i dont recall any belief of myne that i couldnt not explain to an unbeliever without fearing their rejection. becuase god is a good god, and he is good to all peoples.
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