Awake Or Asleep?

[CoreyD]

Only from your POV.

Ok, Let me back up and present a notion, and maybe then you will see better what I am trying to say. But bear in mind, my disclaimer —even this is not quite the way God sees it. It is only a way to look at it, no matter how logical it may seem.

Before Creation, God IS. There is no passage of time, until he created time passage, or, at least, until he created a universe that depends on event sequence.

Not that their POV has any relevance, but maybe you've heard these and understand to some degree —some physicists are proposing that 'time' is as positional as 'place', both logistical, and that all time(s) exist simultaneously. While I reject what I understand them to be saying, maybe it will help you adjust to what I am saying:

God that IS, does not depend on time in order for what he establishes to be true. It need not "become true" for him, but IS true because he spoke it. What he spoke into existence was not just the preliminaries (Adam and Even etc) nor the intermediate (the passage of history) nor the great changes/ events within this temporal existence. What God has made is US — the Final Product. The fact that it has taken these several thousand years (or several billion, if you prefer) to come to pass, and from our POV has a few more before The Resurrection happens, gives no substance to the notion that those who no longer inhabit their bodies experience time passage by sleeping or whatever you take 'sleep' to represent in the Scriptures. That was God talking to people who can only think temporally.

In the end of reasoning and faith, God's point-of-view is the only true way of things.

Thanks for taking the time to go into detail about what you believe.

Tell me if I understand you correctly.
So, I believe something that I think persons are missing.
So, if based on that, I present a concept, it should be accepted as truth, because it's something people are not seeing.
Did I understand correctly?

Would you accept it, if someone told you that during the time that someone stops breathing, their consciousness travels through the universe, and becomes aware of everything that is out there?

What I am saying is that anyone can come up with any idea they might come up with, it's still imaginative, and does not replace what is written for us.
When a person becomes so brilliant that what the scriptures actually say, becomes second place to their reasoning, that person has broken a scriptural rule, and has taken a position that is in opposition to God... perhaps without realizing it.

The scriptures put it this way:
1 Corinthians 4:6
I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another.

Notice the connection between being puffed up with pride, and going beyond what is written.
Imagine that someone is always telling persons what is not actually written, but what they are seeing, whom or what are they drawing attention to... the scriptures, or their intelligence?
In that way, the person is doing what Paul is discouraging.

Human wisdom is nothing.
When we minister to people, the scriptures are the authority, and we don't try to reason our way around them.
A person who claims that Jesus went this place, or that place, during a space of time that is only in their head, is actually reasoning around, and going beyond the things written.

Do you get what is being said here?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Thanks for taking the time to go into detail about what you believe.

Tell me if I understand you correctly.
So, I believe something that I think persons are missing.
So, if based on that, I present a concept, it should be accepted as truth, because it's something people are not seeing.
Did I understand correctly?

Don't forget my disclaimer, which itself defeats the notion that what I presented was FACT. I believe it to be 'A Way To Look At Things", which I also believe to more closely represent the way God sees things, than what we extract from personal experience, and, more to the point, than what we often extract from the anthropomorphistic tone of some of Scripture.

Would you accept it, if someone told you that during the time that someone stops breathing, their consciousness travels through the universe, and becomes aware of everything that is out there?

I could, perhaps, accept that THEY believed it.

What I am saying is that anyone can come up with any idea they might come up with, it's still imaginative, and does not replace what is written for us.
When a person becomes so brilliant that what the scriptures actually say, becomes second place to their reasoning, that person has broken a scriptural rule, and has taken a position that is in opposition to God... perhaps without realizing it.

Agreed.

The scriptures put it this way:
1 Corinthians 4:6
I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another.

I hear ya. And, on top of that, I affirm that the Scriptures are the final authority, as written in the originals.

Notice the connection between being puffed up with pride, and going beyond what is written.
Imagine that someone is always telling persons what is not actually written, but what they are seeing, whom or what are they drawing attention to... the scriptures, or their intelligence?
In that way, the person is doing what Paul is discouraging.

Yes and no. What the Scriptures do say is [always, I think] more than what WE take away from it. (For example), I have said elsewhere, that the Simplicity of God is a philosophically necessary result of the many and constant Scriptural references to God's other attributes. There may be no specific mentions of it in Scripture, just as there are no specific mentions of the Trinity. But it is there, none-the-less.

If people take my POV in a way that draws attention to myself, I am sorry, but it is the beauty, majesty and wisdom of God that I have in mind, when I post such things. I dearly want people to know that God is quite a bit more than their assessment of him and of this world that he made. Our arrangements we make in order to fit the facts (as we see them) into our minds are only that.

Beyond that, Logic —our mental GPS — is always fitting and fitted to Scripture. If something in Scripture doesn't make sense to us, it is often because we are reading it according to our bias —our bias needs adjusted, and our final conclusions need to wait for more wisdom.

Human wisdom is nothing.
When we minister to people, the scriptures are the authority, and we don't try to reason our way around them.
A person who claims that Jesus went this place, or that place, during a space of time that is only in their head, is actually reasoning around, and going beyond the things written.

I repeat that I too believe in the plenary verbal inspiration of the originals, and that Scripture is always the final authority, objective and not of private interpretation. But I also repeat that we ALWAYS read it with ignorance, bias, human self-deterministic mindset and self-importance —try though we might to mitigate that tendency. It is unavoidable that we will do that to one degree or another.

Do you get what is being said here?

Again, bear in mind what I said at the start —that what I presented is a useful "way to look at things". It does not detract, contradict nor deny what Scriptures says at all, as far as I can tell, and it opens up Scripture, and, in particular, the nature of God and what he has done and is doing, more than the notions that depend on the will of man to accomplish what God had in mind from the beginning.

Those who get 'spiritual indigestion' from what I say, do so because of certain premises they take to be even axiomatic. For example, they will say, "The command implies the ability to obey", and, "God would never harm anyone", and, "My salvation absolutely hinges on my decision." From those assumed principles, they read scriptures to say what their biased POV demands.

Now, I also understand that the principle I have just levied against them, (that they assume certain premises to be axiomatic), will be used to measure me, and no doubt I will fall short. God have mercy on all of us —none of us have it quite right, and it is a dangerous thing to misrepresent Him!

Thank you for your kind tone, in light of what you may take for detestable misrepresentation of God's person.

 

[CoreyD]

Don't forget my disclaimer, which itself defeats the notion that what I presented was FACT. I believe it to be 'A Way To Look At Things", which I also believe to more closely represent the way God sees things, than what we extract from personal experience, and, more to the point, than what we often extract from the anthropomorphistic tone of some of Scripture.

I could, perhaps, accept that THEY believed it.

Agreed.

I hear ya. And, on top of that, I affirm that the Scriptures are the final authority, as written in the originals.

Yes and no. What the Scriptures do say is [always, I think] more than what WE take away from it. (For example), I have said elsewhere, that the Simplicity of God is a philosophically necessary result of the many and constant Scriptural references to God's other attributes. There may be no specific mentions of it in Scripture, just as there are no specific mentions of the Trinity. But it is there, none-the-less.

If people take my POV in a way that draws attention to myself, I am sorry, but it is the beauty, majesty and wisdom of God that I have in mind, when I post such things. I dearly want people to know that God is quite a bit more than their assessment of him and of this world that he made. Our arrangements we make in order to fit the facts (as we see them) into our minds are only that.

Beyond that, Logic —our mental GPS — is always fitting and fitted to Scripture. If something in Scripture doesn't make sense to us, it is often because we are reading it according to our bias —our bias needs adjusted, and our final conclusions need to wait for more wisdom.

I repeat that I too believe in the plenary verbal inspiration of the originals, and that Scripture is always the final authority, objective and not of private interpretation. But I also repeat that we ALWAYS read it with ignorance, bias, human self-deterministic mindset and self-importance —try though we might to mitigate that tendency. It is unavoidable that we will do that to one degree or another.

Again, bear in mind what I said at the start —that what I presented is a useful "way to look at things". It does not detract, contradict nor deny what Scriptures says at all, as far as I can tell, and it opens up Scripture, and, in particular, the nature of God and what he has done and is doing, more than the notions that depend on the will of man to accomplish what God had in mind from the beginning.

Those who get 'spiritual indigestion' from what I say, do so because of certain premises they take to be even axiomatic. For example, they will say, "The command implies the ability to obey", and, "God would never harm anyone", and, "My salvation absolutely hinges on my decision." From those assumed principles, they read scriptures to say what their biased POV demands.

Now, I also understand that the principle I have just levied against them, (that they assume certain premises to be axiomatic), will be used to measure me, and no doubt I will fall short. God have mercy on all of us —none of us have it quite right, and it is a dangerous thing to misrepresent Him!

Thank you for your kind tone, in light of what you may take for detestable misrepresentation of God's person.

Thanks again, but I'll like to point out two things that I often try to draw to person's attention.

1. It's okay to use the scriptures to point out that "God is quite a bit more than their assessment of him and of this world that he made", but if we let the scriptures do that, instead of us, we demonstrate that the scriptures are the authority.
2. If we view the scriptures as the authority, we allow that, and not our ideas, or thoughts on what we read, to be the truth. In that way, we acknowledge that correct knowledge of truth is attainable from scripture, and not as many people claim - the idea that we all are in the same boat, and no one can claim to know correctly.

So, let's use this topic, to demonstrate these.
God is outside of time, therefore X.
God is outside of time, therefore X is one possibility, we don't want to dismiss.
God is outside of time, therefore it is possible that in the time not known to us, Jesus went to paradise with the thief.

None of this reasoning uses the scriptures as the authority.
Rather, what it does, is indicate that the idea is just as valid as the scriptures, and can even be scripturally based... though it's not. It's simply an idea.

When Jesus condemned the Pharisees, it was for this said reason. Please read Matthew 15:1-12
Note that Jesus said in verse 6, that they were invalidating God's word, by their doctrines.
What they were teaching, they claimed they were basing it on what they know about God.

I find there are many warnings in the form of examples, in the scriptures, which many today are failing to learn from, and although we see from history, the results (the thousands of various denominations, and growing) of failing to see and learn from these warnings, that isn't going to stop it.
The scriptures do point out why. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12

So, it would be difficult for persons taking this course, to see that they are on a wrong path.
Do you find anything I said here, disagreeable?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Thanks again, but I'll like to point out two things that I often try to draw to person's attention.

1. It's okay to use the scriptures to point out that "God is quite a bit more than their assessment of him and of this world that he made", but if we let the scriptures do that, instead of us, we demonstrate that the scriptures are the authority.
2. If we view the scriptures as the authority, we allow that, and not our ideas, or thoughts on what we read, to be the truth. In that way, we acknowledge that correct knowledge of truth is attainable from scripture, and not as many people claim - the idea that we all are in the same boat, and no one can claim to know correctly.

So, let's use this topic, to demonstrate these.
God is outside of time, therefore X.
God is outside of time, therefore X is one possibility, we don't want to dismiss.
God is outside of time, therefore it is possible that in the time not known to us, Jesus went to paradise with the thief.

None of this reasoning uses the scriptures as the authority.
Rather, what it does, is indicate that the idea is just as valid as the scriptures, and can even be scripturally based... though it's not. It's simply an idea.

When Jesus condemned the Pharisees, it was for this said reason. Please read Matthew 15:1-12
Note that Jesus said in verse 6, that they were invalidating God's word, by their doctrines.
What they were teaching, they claimed they were basing it on what they know about God.

I find there are many warnings in the form of examples, in the scriptures, which many today are failing to learn from, and although we see from history, the results (the thousands of various denominations, and growing) of failing to see and learn from these warnings, that isn't going to stop it.
The scriptures do point out why. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12

So, it would be difficult for persons taking this course, to see that they are on a wrong path.
Do you find anything I said here, disagreeable?

Whether or not it is 'disagreeable' is irrelevant. I find [some of] it mistaken. You still seem to misunderstand, that all people, including myself, when reading Scripture, have a 'take-away' that is mistaken to some degree. You seem, ('to me'—granted), to think that the words that one reads in Scripture mean at [THE READER'S] 'face value', modern day, what they meant when written, and, further that God would not stoop to anthropomorphisms and forebearance and kindness towards people's broken, weak, ignorant and self-important mindsets.

Perhaps I shouldn't assume you are one of those who say that "God deals with us where we are at." It is a weak truism, valid in some cases, but it is off point. But it is perhaps descriptive of the amazing way his Word is written: He does not lie, nor even weaken the truth, when he uses anthropomorphisms; he is presenting absolute fact in such a way that the new believer can have some sort of understanding, later to be improved on, added to or even transformed. He is presenting absolute fact in a way the a long-time believer understands at a different depth and for different purposes from even other long-time believers, yet the long-time believer is responsible to understand that all he has is a point-of-view and not absolute truth. The truth is within us, in our minds and hearts, but we can't express it well even to ourselves. God is that truth.

One thing that I think is amazing about his Word is that the anthropomorphisms, symbolic language, parallels and allegories are all seen by us from OUR point-of-view which is the opposite spectrum from how God sees. For example, our notion of "Father" while mistakenly assumed by readers to apply to our Heavenly Father, is allowed and even induced by God's use of scriptures to us, as a sort of stepping stone on our way to maturity and knowing him. He is not represented by our earthly fathers —it is they who are poor copies of HIM. IMHO most things by which we reason about God are like that. We see it all backwards.

So to be more specific to our current discussion, we assume time-passage to be universally relevant, because most of the Bible is written to us according to our experience and worldview. The more we get to know God, the less our assessment of him is by us assumed valid. He is more amazing and wonderful, wise and 'beyond finding out' than we could have imagined when we were new believers. This does not induce us to careless use of the Scriptures, but it does promote a lifetime of investigation.

Just today, on another site, someone tried to quote several scripture verses ("proof texting") in order to demonstrate that God learns things he did not know, and that he depends on us and our obedience in order to accomplish all he set out to do, and that the totality of fact is a separate matter from what he had in mind to make when he created. Ignoring the rather obvious misuse of some of the 'proof texts', the very method is rife with error. You here seem to think me doing that same thing, imposing my worldview on the scriptures. I'll grant you that I do some of that —as I said before, it is pretty much unavoidable— but so do you and all believers. To assume that what comes to your mind at face value reading is therefore "what the Scriptures are saying", is bad reasoning, and self-important.

Time passage is OUR experience. God is not like us. We already know he spoke creation into existence. What makes us think the end result is, to him, not already done? Only our experience of time passage makes us think that way.

If you can show where I have departed from Scripture, I am willing to listen, but please do not do the style of their so-called 'proof-texting' that takes references out of context, or ignores the force of Scripture —in this case concerning just WHO God is.

 

[CoreyD]

Whether or not it is 'disagreeable' is irrelevant. I find [some of] it mistaken. You still seem to misunderstand, that all people, including myself, when reading Scripture, have a 'take-away' that is mistaken to some degree. You seem, ('to me'—granted), to think that the words that one reads in Scripture mean at [THE READER'S] 'face value', modern day, what they meant when written, and, further that God would not stoop to anthropomorphisms and forebearance and kindness towards people's broken, weak, ignorant and self-important mindsets.

Perhaps I shouldn't assume you are one of those who say that "God deals with us where we are at." It is a weak truism, valid in some cases, but it is off point. But it is perhaps descriptive of the amazing way his Word is written: He does not lie, nor even weaken the truth, when he uses anthropomorphisms; he is presenting absolute fact in such a way that the new believer can have some sort of understanding, later to be improved on, added to or even transformed. He is presenting absolute fact in a way the a long-time believer understands at a different depth and for different purposes from even other long-time believers, yet the long-time believer is responsible to understand that all he has is a point-of-view and not absolute truth. The truth is within us, in our minds and hearts, but we can't express it well even to ourselves. God is that truth.

One thing that I think is amazing about his Word is that the anthropomorphisms, symbolic language, parallels and allegories are all seen by us from OUR point-of-view which is the opposite spectrum from how God sees. For example, our notion of "Father" while mistakenly assumed by readers to apply to our Heavenly Father, is allowed and even induced by God's use of scriptures to us, as a sort of stepping stone on our way to maturity and knowing him. He is not represented by our earthly fathers —it is they who are poor copies of HIM. IMHO most things by which we reason about God are like that. We see it all backwards.

So to be more specific to our current discussion, we assume time-passage to be universally relevant, because most of the Bible is written to us according to our experience and worldview. The more we get to know God, the less our assessment of him is by us assumed valid. He is more amazing and wonderful, wise and 'beyond finding out' than we could have imagined when we were new believers. This does not induce us to careless use of the Scriptures, but it does promote a lifetime of investigation.

Just today, on another site, someone tried to quote several scripture verses ("proof texting") in order to demonstrate that God learns things he did not know, and that he depends on us and our obedience in order to accomplish all he set out to do, and that the totality of fact is a separate matter from what he had in mind to make when he created. Ignoring the rather obvious misuse of some of the 'proof texts', the very method is rife with error. You here seem to think me doing that same thing, imposing my worldview on the scriptures. I'll grant you that I do some of that —as I said before, it is pretty much unavoidable— but so do you and all believers. To assume that what comes to your mind at face value reading is therefore "what the Scriptures are saying", is bad reasoning, and self-important.

Time passage is OUR experience. God is not like us. We already know he spoke creation into existence. What makes us think the end result is, to him, not already done? Only our experience of time passage makes us think that way.

I'm not following how this relates to what was said.

If you can show where I have departed from Scripture, I am willing to listen, but please do not do the style of their so-called 'proof-texting' that takes references out of context, or ignores the force of Scripture —in this case concerning just WHO God is.

If you don't think the scriptures in the thread are clear enough on how you "departed from Scripture", there is nothing more I can say that will make a difference.

Take care.

 

[walter45]

Jesus said that the person - soul (nephesh), (psuché) - that has died, is asleep - sleeping, in death.

I agree with you, I did a lot of research on the scriptures, these were the scriptures I found all of them to be in agreement, on this other site.

What is the state of the dead in the afterlife?

Two Bible attackers debating Bible. Fascinating! lol

www.christianityboard.com

 

[CoreyD]

I agree with you, I did a lot of research on the scriptures, these were the scriptures I found all of them to be in agreement, on this other site.

What is the state of the dead in the afterlife?

Two Bible attackers debating Bible. Fascinating! lol

www.christianityboard.com

I'm glad to hear you agree.
Can I ask a question... It's not a trick question, but requires careful thought.
Jesus said, “Depart; for the girl has not died, but is asleep.” And they began laughing at Him. Matthew 9:24
Can you think of a scripture... Jesus' own words, that explains why Jesus said the girl is asleep, rather than dead?
You need your thinking cap for this one.

 

[walter45]

I'm glad to hear you agree.
Can I ask a question... It's not a trick question, but requires careful thought.
Jesus said, “Depart; for the girl has not died, but is asleep.” And they began laughing at Him. Matthew 9:24
Can you think of a scripture... Jesus' own words, that explains why Jesus said the girl is asleep, rather than dead?
You need your thinking cap for this one.

Doesn't he talk about pretty much the same thing when he's talking about Lazarus?

 

[CoreyD]

Doesn't he talk about pretty much the same thing when he's talking about Lazarus?

They both refer to the same thing, yes. However, in the case of Lazarus, the account says at John 11:14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, “Lazarus died,..." or “Lazarus is dead...." or “Lazarus has died..."
In the case of the little girl, the account reads... Matthew 9:24 “Get out!” he told them. “The girl isn’t dead..." or "the girl is not dead..." or "the girl has not died..."

On the one hand, he says, this person has died. On the other hand, he says this person has not died.
Tricky, isn't it.

 

[walter45]

They both refer to the same thing, yes. However, in the case of Lazarus, the account says at John 11:14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, “Lazarus died,..." or “Lazarus is dead...." or “Lazarus has died..."
In the case of the little girl, the account reads... Matthew 9:24 “Get out!” he told them. “The girl isn’t dead..." or "the girl is not dead..." or "the girl has not died..."

On the one hand, he says, this person has died. On the other hand, he says this person has not died.
Tricky, isn't it.

This scripture is not Jesus talking but I believe it is a helpful scripture:

But your dead will live, LORD; their bodies will rise— let those who dwell in the dust wake up and shout for joy— your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead. -Isaiah 26:19

 

[Indentured Servant]

I think we can put this one to rest.

Good post, and with a fitting closing statement!

I'm reminded of a time I was teaching on Spiritual gifts, and referred to them as "assets" when used, and that those who are not using them are just sitting on them. I ended by saying that those who are "sitting on their assets need to get off your assets and get to work."

 

[CoreyD]

This scripture is not Jesus talking but I believe it is a helpful scripture:

But your dead will live, LORD; their bodies will rise— let those who dwell in the dust wake up and shout for joy— your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead. -Isaiah 26:19

Yes, that is a helpful scripture which shows that the dead sleep only momentarily.
I see that you have a grasp of the fact that sleeping and being dead is the same thing to Jesus, in this context.
Since Jesus said the girl did not die, but is sleeping, but then awakened her from sleep... that is, raised her from the dead, he obviously was teaching the people a lesson, which many today apparently do not grasp.

The scripture I had in mind bear out the heavenly truth Jesus was demonstration. Remember he asked Nicodemus - a Jewish teacher... If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? John 3:12
Interestingly, he was also speaking to Jewish teachers when he said this.
Luke 20, 37, 38
37 “But now, as to whether the dead will be raised - even Moses proved this when he wrote about the burning bush. Long after Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had died, he referred to the Lord as ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 So he is the God of the living, not the dead, for they are all alive to him.”

To me, that is very powerful.
Even though persons are long dead, God sees them, not as dead, but alive, because he will raise them up.
In other words, because God intends to resurrect the dead, they are actually as good as raised up... living, because God will is as good as done, since he cannot lie, and he has the power and desire to accomplish what he wills, or wants.

That gives us the guarantee that our loved ones will return to life. We will see them again.
How reassuring is that! Interesting, isn't it.
Interesting too, is the fact that Jesus was teaching this truth to the religious leaders.
It seems they were misled by the teaching that misleads so many today - that the dead are actually alive... disqualifying any need of resurrection, and thus making God out to be a liar.

That, perhaps is why Jesus started by saying “But now, as to whether the dead will be raised - even Moses proved this when he wrote about the burning bush. Long after Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had died, he referred to the Lord as ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’"
The religious leaders may have adopted some of the teachings that were promoting the immortality of the soul, causing them to abandon resurrection, and forgetting that this was actually a teaching of the Jews throughout the Torah.

This is how easily Satan crafts his lies, to go against God's truth.
He started the lie in the garden, and he continues to craft it to fit different generations of religious beliefs.
It's no wonder then that there are so many different religious beliefs that embrace living on in some form after death.

Contrary to this, Jesus taught that resurrection - a rising up again, is the truth.
When Jesus said the girl is not dead, he was revealing a heavenly truth, and he demonstrated it.
Paul spent many words on this in 1 Corinthians 15, because it was not the common belief among the people.
Thanks for attempting to answer a somewhat tricky question.
You didn't do badly at all.

 

[CoreyD]

Good post, and with a fitting closing statement!

I'm reminded of a time I was teaching on Spiritual gifts, and referred to them as "assets" when used, and that those who are not using them are just sitting on them. I ended by saying that those who are "sitting on their assets need to get off your assets and get to work."

Aspects seems to be a better word... Well the spiritual gifts... and I agree, sitting on those is of no benefit.

 

[walter45]

Yes, that is a helpful scripture which shows that the dead sleep only momentarily.
I see that you have a grasp of the fact that sleeping and being dead is the same thing to Jesus, in this context.
Since Jesus said the girl did not die, but is sleeping, but then awakened her from sleep... that is, raised her from the dead, he obviously was teaching the people a lesson, which many today apparently do not grasp.

The scripture I had in mind bear out the heavenly truth Jesus was demonstration. Remember he asked Nicodemus - a Jewish teacher... If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? John 3:12
Interestingly, he was also speaking to Jewish teachers when he said this.
Luke 20, 37, 38
37 “But now, as to whether the dead will be raised - even Moses proved this when he wrote about the burning bush. Long after Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had died, he referred to the Lord as ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 So he is the God of the living, not the dead, for they are all alive to him.”

To me, that is very powerful.
Even though persons are long dead, God sees them, not as dead, but alive, because he will raise them up.
In other words, because God intends to resurrect the dead, they are actually as good as raised up... living, because God will is as good as done, since he cannot lie, and he has the power and desire to accomplish what he wills, or wants.

That gives us the guarantee that our loved ones will return to life. We will see them again.
How reassuring is that! Interesting, isn't it.
Interesting too, is the fact that Jesus was teaching this truth to the religious leaders.
It seems they were misled by the teaching that misleads so many today - that the dead are actually alive... disqualifying any need of resurrection, and thus making God out to be a liar.

That, perhaps is why Jesus started by saying “But now, as to whether the dead will be raised - even Moses proved this when he wrote about the burning bush. Long after Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had died, he referred to the Lord as ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’"
The religious leaders may have adopted some of the teachings that were promoting the immortality of the soul, causing them to abandon resurrection, and forgetting that this was actually a teaching of the Jews throughout the Torah.

This is how easily Satan crafts his lies, to go against God's truth.
He started the lie in the garden, and he continues to craft it to fit different generations of religious beliefs.
It's no wonder then that there are so many different religious beliefs that embrace living on in some form after death.

Contrary to this, Jesus taught that resurrection - a rising up again, is the truth.
Paul spent many words on this in 1 Corinthians 15, because it was not the common belief among the people.
Thank for attempting to answer a somewhat tricky question.
You didn't do badly at all.

Think about this though, is it really momentarily? Jesus says judgment day is on the last day, Jesus says the resurrection is on the last day. Jesus said no one has ascended into heaven except the Son of Man, So if it's only momentary, where did the millions of people go after they died? - All the ones that were good from Adam and Eve's time to Jesus time period?

 

[CoreyD]

Think about this though, is it really momentarily? Jesus says judgment day is on the last day, Jesus says the resurrection is on the last day. Jesus said no one has ascended into heaven except the Son of Man, So if it's only momentary, where did the millions of people go after they died? - All the ones that were good from Adam and Eve's time to Jesus time period?

Perhaps I used a wrong word.
I did not mean they are raised soon after they die, but that the sleep will be momentary because when they awaken, the time passed would not be noticed.
So, momentarily for them.

You are correct. No one is or has been resurrected as soon as they die, as is taught in so many religions.
God did not take your child to heaven, or your mom, or your brother, or sister, or husband... I agree.

 

[CoreyD]

Think about this though, is it really momentarily? Jesus says judgment day is on the last day, Jesus says the resurrection is on the last day. Jesus said no one has ascended into heaven except the Son of Man, So if it's only momentary, where did the millions of people go after they died? - All the ones that were good from Adam and Eve's time to Jesus time period?

I thought you made a really good point here... one i was making in this thread, if you are interested.

 

[walter45]

King David died a long time ago, and is in God's memory and will be resurrected in the future on judgment day on the last day, he did not ascend to heaven. -Mark 12:27, Acts 2:34

Many people think that when we die we automatically live forever in heaven or hell but the scriptures explain these words:

Isaiah 26:19
New Living Translation
But those who die in the LORD will live; their bodies will rise again! Those who sleep in the earth will rise up and sing for joy! For your life-giving light will fall like dew on your people in the place of the dead!

Psalm 37:29
Peshitta Holy Bible Translated
And the righteous ones inherit the Earth and dwell upon it for eternity.

Ecclesiastes 1:4
New International Version
Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever.

John 6:40
New King James Version
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Jesus says these words:

Matthew 5:5
New International Version
Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.

 

[walter45]

Matthew 27:52
Graves opened, and many of God's people were raised to life.
Contemporary English Version

New King James Version
and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;

Jesus says: Graves opened, and many of God's people were raised to life.

Think about it where does Jesus say many of God's people are coming from?
"Graves opened"

 

[walter45]

John 5:28-29
“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. New International Version

 

[Studyman]

Soul sleep. Are you for, or against it?
Which side is Jesus for, and does the Bible support soul sleep?

Matthew 9:18-25
While He was saying these things to them, a synagogue official came and bowed down before Him, and said, “My daughter has just died; but come and lay Your hand on her, and she will live.”
So Jesus got up and went with him, along with His disciples.

When Jesus came into the official’s house and saw the flute players and the crowd in noisy disorder, He said, “Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep.” And they began laughing at Him.
After the crowd had been put outside, Jesus went in and took the girl by the hand, and she got up.

John 11:11-14
This He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, that I may awaken him out of sleep.”
The disciples then said to Him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.”
However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.
So Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead,"

1 Thessalonians 4:13-16
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve, as do the rest who have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus.
For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Acts 7:58-60
When they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him; and the witnesses laid aside their cloaks at the feet of a young man named Saul.
They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!”
Then he fell on his knees and cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.

Jesus said that the person - soul (nephesh), (psuché) - that has died, is asleep - sleeping, in death.
Various other scriptures in the Bible refer to the the state of the person whom have died, as being asleep - sleeping in death.

I think we can put this one to rest.

The Jesus "of the Bible" once said;

Matt. 10: 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy "both soul and body" in hell.

For me, based on all other scriptures pertaining to death, since god created both body and soul, HE alone has the power to "destroy or kill" both body and soul. We know there is a state at the end of our fleshy existence on this earth called "death". According to the Spirit of God, a person who is dead, knows nothing.

Ecc. 9: 4 For to him that is joined to all the living "there is hope": for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5 For the living "know that they shall die": but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, "is now perished"; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Ps. 146: 2 While "I live" will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being. 3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. 4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day "his thoughts perish".

Is. 38: 18 For the grave "cannot praise thee", death "can not celebrate thee": they that go down into the pit "cannot hope for thy truth". 19 "The living, the living", he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.

Ps. 115: 17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

It is written in Scriptures that there will be a resurrection of the dead, as everyone will stand before the judgment seat of Christ, to be judged by their works that they did, while they were alive. For this to happen, their essence, spirit or "soul" must be preserved by God for Him to be able to raise them and judge them.

Ecc. 3: 19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

I think, based on scriptures, that a man dies and the next thing he sees in the judgment Paul says all men are raised into. Based on Jesus' story of the "Rich Man" after his resurrection, mankind has no concept of time in death. Which makes perfect sense given the Holy Scriptures teach a dead man knows nothing, not even that he is dead and aligns perfectly with Scriptures that tells us this in God's Inspired Words.

So it perfectly reasonable for Jesus to teach that those who are "dead" are merely asleep, and will remain in this state until the Christ Comes back and raises them.

Some raised unto destruction, some raised unto Life. The destruction that would fall on those Jesus mentioned, had already received their rewards in their life as a human. This destruction or as it is called, "Death" is to be "Death Everlasting", that is, a death from which there is no return.

John 5: 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection "of life"; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection "of damnation."