Awake Or Asleep?

[CoreyD]

You talk so much you can't even remember what you said.

I know what I said.
If you want to talk about flat earth, the appropriate forums are available.
I hope you did benefit from at least something in all that I said. Have a good day.

 

[Mark Quayle]

It's the dead that sleep. Not WE.
Jesus did not say WE sleep. he said, Lazarus was sleeping. The little girl was asleep.

The Bible refers to the Saints that sleep in death, and Paul said...
But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

At Job 14:13-15, we read the words of Job.
13 If only You would hide me in Sheol and conceal me until Your anger has passed! If only You would appoint a time for me [NOT WE] and then remember me!
14 When a man dies, will he live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait, [NOT WE] until my renewal chaliphah: Change, exchange, relief, renewal comes.
15 You will call, and I will answer; You will desire the work of Your hands.

Since we are not talking about resurrection, this is not about us waiting to see dead ones resurrected.
This is about dead ones sleeping until they are awaken.

It doesn't require much straw to make a strawman, but evidently it is taking a lot to acknowledge the simple fact that the dead one are sleeping, as they are inactive, unconscious, and silent, in the grave, in which we are told "Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in the tombs [mnémeion - Derived from μνῆμα (mnēma), which means "a memorial" or "a remembrance."] will hear His voice," John 5:28

Who will hear Jesus' voice?
It is the dead ones - the ones that sleep, who are told to wait.
Daniel 12:2, 13
2 And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt.
13 But as for you, go on your way until the end. You will rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.”

Who answers the call of Jesus voice?
It is the dead ones - the ones sleeping, and waiting for their renewal.
This is a basic Bible truth which is being ignored, and resisted. Amazing... but not surprising, since we are told this will happen to those wanting to believe the lie.

2 Thessalonians 2:11, 12
11 For this reason God will send them a powerful delusion [πλάνη plané: Deception, error, delusion, wandering] so that they believe the lie, 12 in order that judgment may come upon all who have disbelieved the truth and delighted in wickedness.

Your whole view assumes the validity and pervasiveness of temporal reality. (Even 'science' is beginning to doubt it! ) There is no logical need to assume passage of time beyond death. Our experience of it is satisfied by saying that they are sleeping; but it may well be that they go directly to be with God. And for the few, to be brought back can be as simple as being brought back either from being with God, or immediately from their passing into death.

 

[CoreyD]

Your whole view assumes the validity and pervasiveness of temporal reality. (Even 'science' is beginning to doubt it! ) There is no logical need to assume passage of time beyond death. Our experience of it is satisfied by saying that they are sleeping; but it may well be that they go directly to be with God. And for the few, to be brought back can be as simple as being brought back either from being with God, or immediately from their passing into death.

If you want to believe that people are brought back from living in heaven, please, go right ahead.
I don't think believing that would be worse than not believing in a resurrection, which means - a rising again; Derived from ἀνίστημι (anistēmi), meaning "to rise" or "to stand up".

The Saints sleeping in death, are not brought back immediately from their passing into death.
Lazarus was four days in the grave, so clearly, he was not brought back immediately from passing into death.
Jesus? Well, he was three days dead in the earth. He certainly was not brought back immediately from passing into death.
The little girl was dead for a few hours - the time it took for Jesus to travel there. She certainly was not brought back immediately from passing into death.

Lazarus, and Jesus, and that little girl, all experienced a resurrection - a hope Jesus and Paul spoke of. Which the Saints await.
In fact, the scriptures, very pointedly says... “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. Acts 2:20-32

Upon his being raised up, the Lord himself - the one that will judge those who refuse to accept the truth, said these very words....
“Do not cling to Me,” Jesus said, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go and tell My brothers, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.’ ” John 20:17

I certainly don't think anyone, including you, would say Jesus went with God, and was brought back from being with the father, or immediately from passing into death, and then lied about it.
So, it looks like all your options are hitting a brick wall.
At this point, if I were in your position, I would stop, and ask myself... "Corey... What are you doing? It looks like you are fighting against God. In which case, you can't win. Are you siding with Satan?"

To be honest with you, if I were delusional, I won't know what I am doing. I would know that I am trying my best to deny the truth... Deep down I would know I am doing that, but the strong chains that bind me, would prevent me from actually seeing it.
My goose would be cooked, and I could not do anything about it... That is, unless I humbled myself, and accepted the truth.

I have a feeling your arguments aren't exhausted.
Lets hear the next.

 

[Aaron112]

Witness what Jesus says to the thief —"Today you will be with me in Paradise."

oops. Jesus Himself was not in paradise for days yet.
that infamous comma was added to deceive billions of people.

 

[Aaron112]

That's exactly what my position is.

How sad.
Besides, wouldn't you rather be , as a redeemed soul, united and one with Jesus and the Father already in this life on earth, as was written, and remains written, in Scripture of the assembly, the ekklesia, in the first century.?

 

[Apple Sky]

Did Jesus bring the little girl, and Lazarus from heaven back down to earth?

Jesus had not been crucified at this time so the soul would have rested in Abraham's bosom.

Christ went to Hell after he died (Ephesians 4:9), he took the keys and was resurrected (Matthew 28), and all those in the Abraham's bosom of the underworld were allowed to come to Heaven (Matthew 27:51–53)

 

[Aaron112]

Unbiblical

Jesus had not been crucified at this time so the soul would have rested in Abraham's bosom.

 

[Aaron112]

Read the Bible reference you posted yourself.
Nothing about Abraham, bosom, underworld, nor heaven. (nor allowed at that time to do anything)

all those in the Abraham's bosom of the underworld were allowed to come to Heaven

 

[Apple Sky]

Read the Bible reference you posted yourself.
Nothing about Abraham, bosom, underworld, nor heaven. (nor allowed at that time to do anything)

King James Bible
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

King James Bible
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

 

[RDKirk]

As I get up this morning and pray in contemplation of the mission set before me today, I need someone to explain to me why this matters.

 

[Aaron112]

If you know the truth, while abiding in Jesus , none of what is on the forum matters.

If you want to know the truth, and realize that much of what is on the forum, and much of what is presumed to be truth in sunday schools and churches and bible schools is not truth,
none of what is on the forum matters.

Hmmmm..... does anything on the forum/ the internet matter ? Does anything on the internet depend on Jesus, is any of it based on Truth Revealed by Abba ?
A little , perhaps, as Abba directs. Most is misleading.

As I get up this morning and pray in contemplation of the mission set before me today, I need someone to explain to me why this matters.

 

[Aaron112]

Did you read the Bible references you posted before

(Ephesians 4:9)

(Matthew 27:51–53)

. These new references you post are not them nor even related, and do not refer to followers of Jesus, but was Jesus using the religious leaders own mistakes , almost or maybe in their own words, to confound them face to face while His disciples may have been present and listening . If you care, which is difficult to tell from so many posts in error, see ew.bullingers "the rich man and lazarus", a most accurate explanation of these here Scripture , from Scripture, without complicating and without contradicting other Scripture like the common religious explanations do.

King James Bible
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

King James Bible
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Isa 14:5-11

 

[CoreyD]

Did you read the Bible references you posted before




. These new references you post are not them nor even related, and do not refer to followers of Jesus, but was Jesus using the religious leaders own mistakes , almost or maybe in their own words, to confound them face to face while His disciples may have been present and listening . If you care, which is difficult to tell from so many posts in error, see ew.bullingers "the rich man and lazarus", a most accurate explanation of these here Scripture , from Scripture, without complicating and without contradicting other Scripture like the common religious explanations do.

Isn't it worthy of note that the Orthodox beliefs are complicated, and requiring many an explanation, and arguments, since they are always contradicting other Scripture?
The unorthodox views are few in comparison.
Only 8 souls were saved out of a world, and Jesus did say, few are finding the truth. Not the masses. Matthew 7:13, 14

I know like me, it does not surprise you.

 

[Aaron112]

Be Becoming Set Apart, less complicated, more wise, more clear, more light.

 

[CoreyD]

Be Becoming Set Apart, less complicated, more wise, more clear, more light.

2 Corinthians 6:14-18; Revelation 18:4;

 

[Aaron112]

14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the

4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.

 

[Mark Quayle]

oops. Jesus Himself was not in paradise for days yet.
that infamous comma was added to deceive billions of people.

You don't know that. Strange you would consider yourself authoritative over Scripture.

BTW, where do you get the word 'comma' to describe that quote? The only 'comma' I know of is the Johannine Comma, and what Jesus said is not it.

 

[CoreyD]

@Aaron112 It's not beneficial to get into arguments where persons just throw in their own reasoning and ideas, over consideration of the scriptures.
I think you know this already though, because I realize you are quite a shrewd individual.

The scriptures clearly gives us what has been expressed here.
To say we don't know where Jesus was for the three days prior to God resurrecting him, is to say we do not know what the scriptures actually say, or teach. Acts 2:30-33 (Psalm 16:10); Acts 2:31; Acts 3:15

 

[Mark Quayle]

I certainly don't think anyone, including you, would say Jesus went with God, and was brought back from being with the father, or immediately from passing into death, and then lied about it.
So, it looks like all your options are hitting a brick wall.

Only from your POV.

At this point, if I were in your position, I would stop, and ask myself... "Corey... What are you doing? It looks like you are fighting against God. In which case, you can't win. Are you siding with Satan?"

To be honest with you, if I were delusional, I won't know what I am doing. I would know that I am trying my best to deny the truth... Deep down I would know I am doing that, but the strong chains that bind me, would prevent me from actually seeing it.
My goose would be cooked, and I could not do anything about it... That is, unless I humbled myself, and accepted the truth.

I have a feeling your arguments aren't exhausted.
Lets hear the next.

Ok, Let me back up and present a notion, and maybe then you will see better what I am trying to say. But bear in mind, my disclaimer —even this is not quite the way God sees it. It is only a way to look at it, no matter how logical it may seem.

Before Creation, God IS. There is no passage of time, until he created time passage, or, at least, until he created a universe that depends on event sequence.

Not that their POV has any relevance, but maybe you've heard these and understand to some degree —some physicists are proposing that 'time' is as positional as 'place', both logistical, and that all time(s) exist simultaneously. While I reject what I understand them to be saying, maybe it will help you adjust to what I am saying:

God that IS, does not depend on time in order for what he establishes to be true. It need not "become true" for him, but IS true because he spoke it. What he spoke into existence was not just the preliminaries (Adam and Even etc) nor the intermediate (the passage of history) nor the great changes/ events within this temporal existence. What God has made is US — the Final Product. The fact that it has taken these several thousand years (or several billion, if you prefer) to come to pass, and from our POV has a few more before The Resurrection happens, gives no substance to the notion that those who no longer inhabit their bodies experience time passage by sleeping or whatever you take 'sleep' to represent in the Scriptures. That was God talking to people who can only think temporally.

In the end of reasoning and faith, God's point-of-view is the only true way of things.