Awake Or Asleep?

[CoreyD]

Soul sleep. Are you for, or against it?
Which side is Jesus for, and does the Bible support soul sleep?

Matthew 9:18-25
While He was saying these things to them, a synagogue official came and bowed down before Him, and said, “My daughter has just died; but come and lay Your hand on her, and she will live.”
So Jesus got up and went with him, along with His disciples.

When Jesus came into the official’s house and saw the flute players and the crowd in noisy disorder, He said, “Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep.” And they began laughing at Him.
After the crowd had been put outside, Jesus went in and took the girl by the hand, and she got up.

John 11:11-14
This He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, that I may awaken him out of sleep.”
The disciples then said to Him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.”
However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.
So Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead,"

1 Thessalonians 4:13-16
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve, as do the rest who have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus.
For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Acts 7:58-60
When they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him; and the witnesses laid aside their cloaks at the feet of a young man named Saul.
They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!”
Then he fell on his knees and cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.

Jesus said that the person - soul (nephesh), (psuché) - that has died, is asleep - sleeping, in death.
Various other scriptures in the Bible refer to the the state of the person whom have died, as being asleep - sleeping in death.

I think we can put this one to rest.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Consider the idea that 'soul sleep' is just a way for us to think of the condition of a person's soul upon dying, while [apparently] 'waiting' for the resurrection. It helps those who think time is base fact, and not one of God's inventions, to understand that a dead person does not suffer.

But as corollary to God's being 'outside' of time, the person that dies is immediately resurrected and with God in heaven, (or facing judgement). Witness what Jesus says to the thief —"Today you will be with me in Paradise."

Time does not govern God.

 

[CoreyD]

Consider the idea that 'soul sleep' is just a way for us to think of the condition of a person's soul upon dying, while [apparently] 'waiting' for the resurrection. It helps those who think time is base fact, and not one of God's inventions, to understand that a dead person does not suffer.

But as corollary to God's being 'outside' of time, the person that dies is immediately resurrected and with God in heaven, (or facing judgement). Witness what Jesus says to the thief —"Today you will be with me in Paradise."

Time does not govern God.

You aren't saying that the scriptures in the OP are not truthful, so I am not sure what you are saying.
You seem to be making an argument against, but to do so, would be to deny what Jesus said, and what the scriptures said.
Unless you can explain how what Jesus said, and what the scriptures said, do not mean what they said.

Are you saying the little girl, Lazarus, Stephen, and the Saints were not, or are not sleeping in death?

 

[All Becomes New]

Sleep is just a metaphor. Paul says, "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."

 

[CoreyD]

Sleep is just a metaphor. Paul says, "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."

Are you saying that "sleep is just a metaphor" for being present with the Lord?
Did Jesus say that? Or did Jesus say sleep is equivalent to death?

I read,
[Jesus] said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, that I may awaken him out of sleep.”
Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.
So Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead,"

Did you read that also?
You did not read something else, did you?
Did all the scriptures quoted not refer to those who died?

You would like me to believe the scriptures, over what you, or others say, don't you?

 

[All Becomes New]

You would like me to believe the scriptures, over what you, or others say, don't you?

I quoted scripture and provided commentary to explain how the idea of sleep was used in the NT.

 

[CoreyD]

I quoted scripture and provided commentary to explain how the idea of sleep was used in the NT.

Thank you for your commentary, that is not stated in scripture, but is what you believe.
Would you like to give a scripture that supports your opinion?

 

[All Becomes New]

Thank you for your commentary, that is not stated in scripture, but is what you believe.
Would you like to give a scripture that supports your opinion?

I already did.

2 Corinthians 5:8
"In fact, we are confident, and we would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord."

So, there is an apparent contradiction in how you interpret scripture. How do you resolve this conflict?

 

[CoreyD]

But as corollary to God's being 'outside' of time, the person that dies is immediately resurrected and with God in heaven, (or facing judgement). Witness what Jesus says to the thief —"Today you will be with me in Paradise."

Time does not govern God.

Just a couple questions I think you and @All Becomes New might want to ask yourself.

1. Did Jesus bring the little girl, and Lazarus from heaven back down to earth?
2. Is it in heaven that the Saints hear the voice of the archangel, and from heaven, they come down to earth, and then rise up to meet the Lord in the air?

None of them went to heaven upon death, did they?
This is what the church leaders are feeding people, but these doctrines are far removed from the Bible.
It's sad, don't you think.

How grateful we should be that God gave us a brain to think, and reason, and his word, that we can examine.
God has provided good teachers of his word, as well. Something else to be truly grateful for.

 

[All Becomes New]

Just a couple questions I think you and @All Becomes New might want to ask yourself.

1. Did Jesus bring the little girl, and Lazarus from heaven back down to earth?
2. Is it in heaven that the Saints hear the voice of the archangel, and from heaven, they come down to earth, and then rise up to meet the Lord in the air?

None of them went to heaven upon death, did they?
This is what the church leaders are feeding people, but these doctrines are far removed from the Bible.
It's sad, don't you think.

How grateful we should be that God gave us a brain to think, and reason, and his word, that we can examine.
God has provided good teachers of his word, as well. Something else to be truly grateful for.

The thing is, even with what you say, you still have a Biblical contradiction with your interpretation. That needs to be solved before you convince anyone of your perspective.

 

[CoreyD]

I already did.

2 Corinthians 5:8
"In fact, we are confident, and we would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord."

So, there is an apparent contradiction in how you interpret scripture. How do you resolve this conflict?

Resolving the contradiction lies with you, ABN, because you have to explain how 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, and the scriptures in the OP, harmonizes with your opinion on 2 Corinthians 5:8.

 

[CoreyD]

The thing is, even with what you say, you still have a Biblical contradiction with your interpretation. That needs to be solved before you convince anyone of your perspective.

Sorry, but I have not interpreted anything, and there are no contradictions with the scriptures... just your opinion on one verse.

 

[All Becomes New]

Resolving the contradiction lies with you, ABN, because you have to explain how 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, and the scriptures in the OP, harmonizes with your opinion on 2 Corinthians 5:8.

What's the contradiction I have? If sleep is a metaphor for being away from the body (as I understand it), what's the problem? Your use of scripture does not allow for metaphors.

Also, you seem to be playing all offense and no defense. But people besides me can see what we are both saying, and they can make up their own minds; how does that sound?

 

[Jo555]

I haven't done the bible study on this topic, but it's one I said one day I would like to do with more time. There appears to be enough evidence to support both views. When I come across this I realize that it's neither one or the other, but how one fits into the other.

I have my perspective, but it is not one where I've completed a bible study on it.

Of now i believe when we die our spirits are joined with the Lord. I believe our bodies are resurrected when he returns and rules in the new heaven and earth. All things made new.

As i said though, haven't done the prayerful study as not on my priority list now, but I would just recommend to understand the scriptures in regards to how they fit within each other.

We so often want to take what fits our view and disregard the others that don't, but it is more a matter of how they fit together.

 

[All Becomes New]

Of now i believe when we die our spirits are joined with the Lord. I believe our bodies are resurrected when he returns and rules in the new heaven and earth. All things made new.

That's exactly what my position is.

 

[CoreyD]

What's the contradiction I have? If sleep is a metaphor for being away from the body (as I understand it), what's the problem? Your use of scripture does not allow for metaphors.

Also, you seem to be playing all offense and no defense. But people besides me can see what we are both saying, and they can make up their own minds; how does that sound?

You can read ABN.
Are you saying that those sleeping in death are in heaven, since they went there upon death?
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
15 For this we say to you xby the word of the Lord, that ywe who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are 4asleep. 16 For zthe Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with athe trumpet of God. bAnd the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 cThen we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them din the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus ewe shall always be with the Lord.

This scripture does not say those who are sleeping in death, are in heaven.
It says, at the last trumpet, "the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air...

You are correct though. It is clear for all to see.
They are honest folk out there, who see clearly what the scriptures say, and they can see the contradiction between what you say, and what is said here.
Are you saying you don't see it?

If that is the truth, then please answer the questions you dismissed.

1. Did Jesus bring the little girl, and Lazarus from heaven back down to earth?
2. Is it in heaven that the Saints hear the voice of the archangel, and from heaven, they come down to earth, and then rise up to meet the Lord in the air?

There aren't difficult questions.
The audience can see that too.
I'm sure they are eager to hear your answer. I am too.

 

[All Becomes New]

Are you saying that those sleeping in death are in heaven, since they went there upon death?

I never claimed they were in heaven.

If that is the truth, then please answer the questions you dismissed.

If I do, will you answer my questions?

 

[CoreyD]

I haven't done the bible study on this topic, but it's one I said one day I would like to do with more time. But now there appears to be enough evidence to support both views. When I come across this I realize that it's neither one or the other, but how one fits into the other.

I have my perspective, but it is not one where I've completed a bible study on it.

Of now i believe when we die our spirits are joined with the Lord. I believe our bodies are resurrected when he returns and rules in the new heaven and earth. All things made new.

As i said though, haven't done the prayerful study as not on my priority list now, but I would just recommend to understand the scriptures in regards to how they fit within each other.

We so often want to take what fits our view and disregard the others that don't, but it is more a matter of how they fit together.

Thanks for being honest about your knowledge of scripture.
Perhaps you can study right now.
Is it the body that God resurrects, or the person?
The answer can be found in 1 Corinthians 15:35-49

I'll be back later, to see what you found.
Thank you.

 

[All Becomes New]

Thanks for being honest about your knowledge of scripture.
Perhaps you can study right now.
Is it the body that God resurrects, or the person?
The answer can be found in 1 Corinthians 15:35-49

I'll be back later, to see what you found.
Thank you.

1 Corinthians 15:45-46
"So it is written, The first man Adam became a living being; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, then the spiritual."

How do you suppose our body is changed into a spiritual body if the physical body is destroyed? What is there to replace the physical body?

 

[Mark Quayle]

You aren't saying that the scriptures in the OP are not truthful, so I am not sure what you are saying.
You seem to be making an argument against, but to do so, would be to deny what Jesus said, and what the scriptures said.
Unless you can explain how what Jesus said, and what the scriptures said, do not mean what they said.

Are you saying the little girl, Lazarus, Stephen, and the Saints were not, or are not sleeping in death?

Just a couple questions I think you and @All Becomes New might want to ask yourself.

1. Did Jesus bring the little girl, and Lazarus from heaven back down to earth?
2. Is it in heaven that the Saints hear the voice of the archangel, and from heaven, they come down to earth, and then rise up to meet the Lord in the air?

None of them went to heaven upon death, did they?
This is what the church leaders are feeding people, but these doctrines are far removed from the Bible.
It's sad, don't you think.

How grateful we should be that God gave us a brain to think, and reason, and his word, that we can examine.
God has provided good teachers of his word, as well. Something else to be truly grateful for.

Disclaimer: In my years of knowing God, I constantly see in my descriptions of how I see things, in spite of all the logical necessities and mental structures I build, that there is always more that I didn't know than what I had thought before. I may be right, but if so, only in part. What I try to present here is only another way to look at it, and necessarily falls short of the facts.

Scriptures are replete with metaphor and symbolism. These aren't lies.

Funny thing about scriptures, that often the things we take for metaphor and symbolism and even anthropomorphism, are actually true as written. The problem is that we see them backwards. For example, we hear of the pearly gates, and imagine a great pearl. Maybe it is a great pearl, and OUR silly little things are only symbolic of it. After all, we already should know that if God is the Father, our fathers only in part resemble him. Do we know what the "hand of God" is?

What makes us think we know what sleep is? All we have is our experience of it.

Your questions were circular. You ask a question that still depends on time, as though it is self-contradictory to deny the point. It only is self-contradictory if one assumes a logistical validity to the 'before and after' of the two events. Your question is mistaken. The little girl died and came back to life, 1) from our point of view with a period of time between the two events, but 2) from God's point of view, just as instantaneous as for him to speak it into fact. God is not subject to time, nor is what he does, unless he makes it subject to time.

And God can do that. My guess is that, for example, when Jesus is transfigured on the hill, those he spoke with were brought back from Heaven and not from 'sleep' nor instantaneously from the moment of their passing. Also, hard to say about dead Samuel when he shows up to tell King Saul what's what. He seemed rather grumpy about it, to me.

Consider that for Lazarus, more than 3 days gone, it was gone-and-back, with no time passage. "Sleeping in death" is a good way to think of it, if we can't quite fit it into our heads that time is only a tool God uses to accomplish his purposes.

A sort of parallel, to show that "sleep" is only a concept we use to describe our experience of it: The anesthesiologist put me out, and when I woke up, I felt no time had passed, although I was not puzzled, but only curious. I didn't sleep —I was OUT!