Awake Or Asleep?

[All Becomes New]

Why did you quote those verses in response to the question - Is it the body that God resurrects, or the person?

Because whether or not you call it a "person" is beside the point. You are using your own terminology as a dichotomy when it does not need to be that way. It could be our spirit and not a person as such.

Are those verses where you find the answer to the question, or are you seeking an answer to a question of your own?

I am asking you to think it through. Is that possible for you to do, or are you going to continue to dodge questions?

 

[Jo555]

I think you need to start from scratch, if you are going to fix the puzzle correctly.
Someone may have squeezed a piece into place that does not belong there.

As long as you are standing on the proper foundation, you don't have to start from scratch. You can just say I don't believe that piece fits there. I believe it goes here, but feel we getting off on an unproductive side road.

Feel like we are now just nitpicking words and it is leading to misunderstandings. I'm going blind now so need a break.

Thanks though. You all so courteous. Happy Thanksgiving!

Hope to return soon.
.

 

[CoreyD]

I agree it isn't about just my view. That is why i call it my perspective which i admit may be wrong as I haven't done a proper bible study with the Lord, and others on it.

Perspective -

1. A view or vista.
2. A mental view or outlook.

I appreciate your honesty. I really do.

What do you call a Bible study with the Lord? Is that where you sit with the Bible and go through it, and pray that God open your understanding so that you can see the truth?

No one is advocating for a multiple of ideas, but many do quote scripture that, initially, can appear to contradict other scripture. It just needs to be understood within context of the overall picture in Christ. And, we need to rely on the Lord and his Spirit to reveal it.

Yes, taking the context into consideration is important.

A man was sitting reading the scriptures, and he was really sincere - devout.
No doubt, he prayed for God to help him understand.
Did God answer his prayer? Certainly.
What do you think God did?

No need to guess. Read the answer in your Bible, at Acts 8:26-40
That account is there, as it helps us see how God works.
Imagine if FedEX asked you to come to their company and collect a package. Or, imagine the manager jumping in his car, and speeding down to your house, to give you a package.

God has messengers, and from the time we were introduced to God, in the Bible, he utilizes those messengers, to deliver.
Jesus came to earth as God's chief apostle, and what did he do? He chose men, and sent them out to make disciple. Luke 8:1; Luke 9:1-6;
In turn, the disciples also went out and made disciples. Luke 10:1, 2
This has been God's way of reaching those who thirst for the truth, for centuries... until the end. Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:18-20

Imagine if some people were to complain to the manager of FedEX about their deliveries.

 

[CoreyD]

As long as you are standing on the proper foundation, you don't have to start from scratch. You can just say I don't believe that piece fits there. I believe it goes here, but feel we getting off on an unproductive side road.

Feel like we are now just nitpicking words and it is leading to misunderstandings. I'm going blind now so need a break.

Thanks though. You all so courteous. Happy Thanksgiving!

Hope to return soon.
.

If one is sure, yes, but if one is not sure they should start from scratch, then? We can agree on that.

 

[All Becomes New]

@CoreyD,

I never said there were contradictions in the Bible. I said there is an apparent contradiction with your view of the Bible. I did not ask you if there were any contradictions in the Bible. I asked you how you resolve the apparent contradiction in believing in soul sleep and 2 Corinthians 5:8. To answer this, you said, "There are no contradictions in the Bible." But that is not what I asked. I asked how you resolved this conflict. So it is dishonest of you to say you answered my question when you haven't.

 

[Jo555]

@CoreyD,

I never said there were contradictions in the Bible. I said there is an apparent contradiction with your view of the Bible. I did not ask you if there were any contradictions in the Bible. I asked you how you resolve the apparent contradiction in believing in soul sleep and 2 Corinthians 5:8. To answer this, you said, "There are no contradictions in the Bible." But that is not what I asked. I asked how you resolved this conflict. So it is dishonest of you to say you answered my question when you haven't.

Lord, now I'm being dishonest ... Dishonesty is a matter of the heart. Nuff said. Have a blessed Thanksgiving.

 

[All Becomes New]

Lord, now I'm being dishonest ... Dishonesty is a matter of the heart. Nuff said. Have a blessed Thanksgiving.

Had nothing to do with you. So, I was not calling you dishonest.

 

[Jo555]

Had nothing to do with you. So, I was not calling you dishonest.

My bad, thought i was talking to another in response to what i thought was his reply to me. Lord, losing my hearing too. Where is the exit.

I think this is where Captain Kirk would say, "Beam me up Scotty."

I'll have to see about disabling notifications. Gets confusing ...

Had a nice time though.

 

[CoreyD]

I am making a more modest claim than saying that if you die, you go to heaven. You have assumed my position and then are arguing against a straw man.

Can you please explain why you quoted Paul, about being absent from the body, and present with the Lord.
Or don't you want to? if you don't can you just verbally let me know please.

You have not answered any of my questions.

There was one question, which I answered.
Can you please point out the others I missed.

I went so far as to grant your point and then argue against that position.

Do you mean you granted that Jesus did say sleep is equivalent to death
Couldn't you just say that. I can't read minds, you know.

So you are arguing against the position that jesus equated death with sleep, by claiming that sleep is not used metaphorically for death, but is used metaphorically for being absent from the body and present with the lord?

How will you support an argument like that, when in the scriptures it can be plainly seen that Jesus used sleep to designate death?
Would that not be like arguing "Well my opinion is superior to scripture"?

Yes, as I have already said in my first post.

Fine. Thanks.

Many metaphors in the Bible don't come right out and say, "This is a metaphor," and we should not expect the Bible to do that.

So, you said, "Sleep is just a metaphor." because why, and are you arguing that it is not a metaphor?
I'm a little confused here. What are you saying.

I don't. You have your own version of what you think Jesus said. I don't disagree with anything that Jesus said.

I don't understand why you make this statement, because, at no time did I give "my version" of what Jesus said.
Everyone reading the OP can see that clearly.
The OP quotes scriptures, and says exactly what those scriptures say, and leaves it there. Nothing more.

Let m ask for another opinion, because this is disturbing.
@Jo555 can you look over the OP, and tell me honestly, please, if I have inserted "my version" of what Jesus said.
Thanks.

No, this is a lie.

How is it a lie?
Did you ask...
So, there is an apparent contradiction in how you interpret scripture. How do you resolve this conflict?

Is this not an answer to your question?
Sorry, but I have not interpreted anything, and there are no contradictions with the scriptures... just your opinion on one verse.

How would you like me to answer that question?

The way loaded questions are designed is to try to limit direct replies.
For example, the question, "Are you still beating your wife?" Or "Have you stopped beating your wife?" presupposes that one is beating their wife.
The fallacy relies upon context for its effect: the fact that a question presupposes something does not in itself make the question fallacious. Only when some of these presuppositions are not necessarily agreed to by the person who is asked the question does the argument containing them become fallacious.

How would most people answer that question?
"I never beat my wife". Or, "I do not beat my wife".
The question is answered... not in the way the questioner might have wanted, but it was answered.

Your presupposition, which is a false conclusion, is that I interpreted scripture.
I answered you question appropriately.
I have not interpreted anything, and there are no contradictions with the scriptures... just your opinion on one verse.

You may not be happy with the answer, but I do not think it is fair to blame me for a badly asked question... or worse, a loaded one.
Perhaps ask the question differently.

 

[CoreyD]

Because whether or not you call it a "person" is beside the point. You are using your own terminology as a dichotomy when it does not need to be that way. It could be our spirit and not a person as such.

I am asking a question.
To interpret my question to fit your belief does not answer the question.
That would be changing up the question so that your answer fits your belief.
I did not ask the question to get a belief.
I asked the question to @Jo555 for him to get the Bible's answer.

If you want to answer the question, I have no problem with that, but presupposing an answer based on your belief, and then changing the question to fit that answer, is not what I am looking for.
It's either you answer the question, if you want, or just leave it.
It wasn't for you. Not that I am excluding you. Anyone can answer.

I am asking you to think it through. Is that possible for you to do, or are you going to continue to dodge questions?

Think what through? What you believe?
Would you not prefer me to think through what the scriptures are saying?
You don't mind if I do that, do you?

So, is your answer, the spirit is what is resurrected?

 

[CoreyD]

@CoreyD,

I never said there were contradictions in the Bible. I said there is an apparent contradiction with your view of the Bible. I did not ask you if there were any contradictions in the Bible. I asked you how you resolve the apparent contradiction in believing in soul sleep and 2 Corinthians 5:8. To answer this, you said, "There are no contradictions in the Bible." But that is not what I asked. I asked how you resolved this conflict. So it is dishonest of you to say you answered my question when you haven't.

I know what you said.
Your question was answered.

 

[CoreyD]

Lord, now I'm being dishonest ... Dishonesty is a matter of the heart. Nuff said. Have a blessed Thanksgiving.

Love your spirit man.
Some of us on these forums can read hearts, So we get to judge. Did you not know that? Now you know. LOL

 

[CoreyD]

My bad, thought i was talking to another in response to what i thought was his reply to me. Lord, losing my hearing too. Where is the exit.

I think this is where Captain Kirk would say, "Beam me up Scotty."

I'll have to see about disabling notifications. Gets confusing ...

Had a nice time though.

I'm hurt.
Do you think I would just turn on you like some wild animal?

Don't worry about it. It happens on forums. ...and we are only human.
Darwin may be right about some of us though - Survival of the fittest. Just kidding.
What's life without a joke.

A question though. I'm referring to you as male. Am I on the right track?

 

[All Becomes New]

Can you please explain why you quoted Paul, about being absent from the body, and present with the Lord.

Because it is scripture and shows the error of the theology of soul sleep.

There was one question, which I answered.
Can you please point out the others I missed.

How do you resolve this conflict?

How do you suppose our body is changed into a spiritual body if the physical body is destroyed? What is there to replace the physical body?

Do you mean you granted that Jesus did say sleep is equivalent to death

Jesus never equates death to sleep in a literal way.

So you are arguing against the position that jesus equated death with sleep, by claiming that sleep is not used metaphorically for death, but is used metaphorically for being absent from the body and present with the lord?

Sleep is used as a metaphor. Everyone Jesus and Paul were talking to would have understood this.

How will you support an argument like that, when in the scriptures it can be plainly seen that Jesus used sleep to designate death?

Because sleep is a metaphor for being away from the body.

Would that not be like arguing "Well my opinion is superior to scripture"?

No, because I quoted scripture to make my point.

So, you said, "Sleep is just a metaphor." because why, and are you arguing that it is not a metaphor?

No, it is a metaphor. Everyone at the time of Jesus would have understood that. Jesus says that God is the God of the living talking about Abraham being dead. If Abraham is dead, how can God be the God of the living if Abraham is asleep?

I don't understand why you make this statement, because, at no time did I give "my version" of what Jesus said.

Soul sleep is literally a theology about what happens after we die.

Is this not an answer to your question?

Nope. You've misunderstood my question or are lying.

I asked the question to @Jo555 for him to get the Bible's answer.

Which is incomplete because the Bible does not tell us everything. Hence, my questions about the passage that YOU brought up.

Your question was answered.

Nope. Not in the slightest.

 

[CoreyD]

Because it is scripture and shows the error of the theology of soul sleep.

Please explain how it "shows the error of the theology of soul sleep".

 

[All Becomes New]

Please explain how it "shows the error of the theology of soul sleep".

Because it shows that a person is "with the Lord" after they have died.

Go back up. I posted my responses too soon. I've edited my previous post.

 

[CoreyD]

Because it shows that a person is "with the Lord" after they have died.

Go back up. I posted my responses too soon. I've edited my previous post.

No problem.
Let me address this first, since it is the focus of the topic, and your first argument.

Please explain what your understanding is regarding "a person is "with the Lord" after they have died", since you did not claim it is in heaven.

 

[CoreyD]

Because it is scripture and shows the error of the theology of soul sleep.


Jesus never equates death to sleep in a literal way.

What do you mean by "in a literal way"?

Sleep is used as a metaphor. Everyone Jesus and Paul were talking to would have understood this.

They did not understand it was used to signify death?
My question was "So you are arguing against the position that Jesus equated death with sleep, by claiming that sleep is not used metaphorically for death, but is used metaphorically for being absent from the body and present with the lord?"

Is that a yes, or no?

Because sleep is a metaphor for being away from the body.

We both know the scriptures do not say that. Nor do the scriptures equate the two, as the scriptures in the OP does.
So, do you accept this is your opinion?
If not. Please provide the scripture that says it is a fact.

No, because I quoted scripture to make my point.

You did not.
Paul did not say sleep is equated with being absent from the body, and present with the Lord.
You are reading a proper translation of the Bible, are you?

No, it is a metaphor. Everyone at the time of Jesus would have understood that. Jesus says that God is the God of the living talking about Abraham being dead. If Abraham is dead, how can God be the God of the living if Abraham is asleep?

Why did Jesus say that "God is the God of the living"?
Please quote Jesus subsequent words.
Are you saying that Lazarus, the little girl, Stephen, and the Saints, mentioned in the OP are not sleeping in death?

Soul sleep is literally a theology about what happens after we die.

Please explain that statement.
This is an opinion.

Nope. You've misunderstood my question or are lying.

I did not misunderstand your question, and I am not lying.
Are you calling me a liar?

Which is incomplete because the Bible does not tell us everything. Hence, my questions about the passage that YOU brought up.

The passage of scripture I gave, answers the question.
I did not ask a question outside the Bible... like are motorcycles good or bad.

Nope. Not in the slightest.

I did not answer your question?
Please tell me what an answer to your question would be.

 

[All Becomes New]

Please explain what your understanding is regarding "a person is "with the Lord" after they have died", since you did not claim it is in heaven.

I don't know. I just know that we are "with the Lord" after we die. It could be something similar to Abraham's bosom. I don't know because scripture doesn't really say. However, we know if we are "with the Lord," that we are not unconscious or that we have no awareness of anything. NDEs demonstrate this quite well, too.

 

[CoreyD]

I don't know. I just know that we are "with the Lord" after we die. It could be something similar to Abraham's bosom. I don't know because scripture doesn't really say. However, we know if we are "with the Lord," that we are not unconscious or that we have no awareness of anything. NDEs demonstrate this quite well, too.

You do not know.
Thank you.
That's the end of our discussion, on that.

If you cannot explain what your opinion on a scripture is, and yet you are arguing for that opinion, then there is nothing to such an argument.
It's just arguing an opinion. Which is pointless.