Avoiding the Mark of the beast

[Major1]

Don't know about Frome. Chrysostom himself lived from 349-407 AD. His homily on 2 Thess. 2 can be found here, which includes my previous quotation.

Paul was afraid of nothing. But his concern was for the Church, and his desire was to shield it from any unnecessary potentially negative consequences of the messages he was relaying. That is why he expressed those messages as he did, as Chrysostom explains. There was nothing to be gained, and potentially much to lose, by identifying the Roman Caesar and Empire.

History testifies to the complete accuracy of Paul's predictions and admonitions.

You said..........
"Paul was afraid of nothing".

Agreed and that is what I said as well. That being the case then there is no reason why he would be afraid to say the words..."Holy Ghost".

He said the word "HE" IMO because he assumed everyone who was reading his words would know who he was talking about.

Allow me to give you an example. No where in the Bible is an explination for the existence of God.

Genesis 1:1.........
"In the beginning GOD.........".

That is an assumption and Moses did not go onto detail. He assumed we would accept and know who who he was talking about.

Same in John 1:1.......
"In the beginning was the WORD........".

Paul did the same thing in 2 Thess. 2:3........
"....until HE who letteth be taken out of the way".

 

[Original Happy Camper]

except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name."

So in your theory please explain the last portion of the verse that says "except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name."

If they are physical then the tattoo artists are going to be busy putting marks on right hand and foreheads of a lot of people.

Matt 7
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

 

[Major1]

My interpretation is that the believers will be raptured after the antichrist is revealed through a military invasion of Israel and setting up the abomination of desolation but before the mark of the beast is instituted.

I think the amount of time between abomination of desolation and rapture is very short.

Then please explain 2 Thess. 2:3-8..........
"Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day (Rapture) will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He (Holy Spirit) who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. "

 

[Major1]

So in your theory please explain the last portion of the verse that says "except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name."

If they are physical then the tattoo artists are going to be busy putting marks on right hand and foreheads of a lot of people.

Matt 7
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

For clarity and correct response would you please post the Bible verse you are asking about. I know what it is but we need to be clear and not assume it.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

For clarity and correct response would you please post the Bible verse you are asking about. I know what it is but we need to be clear and not assume it.

I was quoting your post of Revelation 13:17

 

[Original Happy Camper]

For clarity and correct response would you please post the Bible verse you are asking about. I know what it is but we need to be clear and not assume it.

You have posted assumptions that are not in the Bible ie mark being a chip, so please do not act high and mighty in your posts, as if your are the professor. It was your quote that I responded to.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Paul did the same thing in 2 Thess. 2:3........
"....until HE who letteth be taken out of the way".

A few years ago,
I don't know what site or where,
there was another translation similar to this,
but different enough to make all the difference..... (in understanding what's going on)....
totally in line and in harmony with all Scripture (and apparently more in line than standard word usages) .....
and
referring, for example, to the daily increase in the devil's activity on earth (today)
as YHWH permits, planned, purposes, allows, and wrote about in Scripture.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Then please explain 2 Thess. 2:3-8..........
"Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day (Rapture) will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He (Holy Spirit) who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. "

yeah, this translation most commonly 'accepted',
may be slightly (or greatly) different than the original meaning, because mostly of traditions of men and protecting those traditions.
In short, the enemy is already at work, and more so every day,
but YHWH'S presence,
Yeshua the Good Shepherd, with and guarding His sheep, has not changed and is not being withdrawn from His chosen ones set apart by YHWH for His Own Purpose.
Instead, the devil is , as written, increasing daily (like being birthed more ) every day in the affairs of men/mankind/ people, until the sin and wickedness has increased as much as YHWH will permit it.... (going on right now, in everyone's life / all around us) ....

 

[jgr]

You said..........
"Paul was afraid of nothing".

Agreed and that is what I said as well. That being the case then there is no reason why he would be afraid to say the words..."Holy Ghost".

He said the word "HE" IMO because he assumed everyone who was reading his words would know who he was talking about.

Allow me to give you an example. No where in the Bible is an explination for the existence of God.

Genesis 1:1.........
"In the beginning GOD.........".

That is an assumption and Moses did not go onto detail. He assumed we would accept and know who who he was talking about.

Same in John 1:1.......
"In the beginning was the WORD........".

Paul did the same thing in 2 Thess. 2:3........
"....until HE who letteth be taken out of the way".

Paul wasn't referring to the Holy Spirit. He was referring indirectly to the Roman empire, as Chrysostom explained.

 

[VARZR]

Then please explain 2 Thess. 2:3-8..........
"Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day (Rapture) will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He (Holy Spirit) who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. "

I am not sure exactly what you are asking for here but I will give it a try.

The act which will reveal the identity of the antichrist is the abomination of desolation where the antichrist will set up his headquarters in Jerusalem after a military invasion. I think this happens before the rapture. I think the rapture happens a very short period maybe hours to a weeks after the antichrist seizing Jerusalem. After the rapture happens but still during the reign of the antichrist and the beast empire the mark of the beast is instituted. Just like a ruler or politician can't implement their entire agenda on day one the antichrist's first priority is to invade Israel and seize Jerusalem. The mark will be instituted at a later date in the antichrist's rule but after the rapture.

I feel the mark of the beast is likely a mark of allegiance. Not a chip, not a card, not money just a mark like a tattoo or brand. I think it will be to identify those who have pledged allegiance to the beast empire. I think the part of buying and selling is only a law that says it is illegal for people without the mark to buy or sell.

 

[Major1]

I am not sure exactly what you are asking for here but I will give it a try.

The act which will reveal the identity of the antichrist is the abomination of desolation where the antichrist will set up his headquarters in Jerusalem after a military invasion. I think this happens before the rapture. I think the rapture happens a very short period maybe hours to a weeks after the antichrist seizing Jerusalem. After the rapture happens but still during the reign of the antichrist and the beast empire the mark of the beast is instituted. Just like a ruler or politician can't implement their entire agenda on day one the antichrist's first priority is to invade Israel and seize Jerusalem. The mark will be instituted at a later date in the antichrist's rule but after the rapture.

I feel the mark of the beast is likely a mark of allegiance. Not a chip, not a card, not money just a mark like a tattoo or brand. I think it will be to identify those who have pledged allegiance to the beast empire. I think the part of buying and selling is only a law that says it is illegal for people without the mark to buy or sell.

Scripture does seem to indicate a military action in Ezekiel 38. That conflict could then lead to the peace agreement spoken of by Daniel in 9:27 which is by the way a 7 year peace treaty. To have a peace agreement seems to indicate a war/conflict.

Again.........the Scriptures say that the A/C will not be known until the Holy Spirit is removed from the earth at the Rapture. THEN the A/C will be seen and known. Then he will rule for 3 and 1/2 years and then stand in the temple and declare himself to be God.

The 7 year tribulation will begin immediately after the Rapture because the A/c will then come to power.

I agre that the Mark will be a tattoo on the skin , a literal mark which I think will be the UPC Bar code. THAT is what will allow a cashless society to and the ability to track those Jews who come to Christ.

 

[Major1]

You have posted assumptions that are not in the Bible ie mark being a chip, so please do not act high and mighty in your posts, as if your are the professor. It was your quote that I responded to.

I have NEVER said the mark of the beast WOULD BE A CHIP!!! I can understand that it is possible for it to be but the Bible never says the mark is a chip. The Bible says that it will be a MARK on the forehead or the hand. So lets be truthful in our comments shall we.

There is no reason to have such an attitude my friend. We are all at different levels of growth and understanding in our lives.

All I asked was for YOU to post the Scripture you spoke of so that we can be on the same page. That would have been the normal customary thing to do. If that is a problem then forget it and lets both move on. I did not realize that it would be such a concern for you.

 

[VARZR]

Scripture does seem to indicate a military action in Ezekiel 38. That conflict could then lead to the peace agreement spoken of by Daniel in 9:27 which is by the way a 7 year peace treaty. To have a peace agreement seems to indicate a war/conflict.

Again.........the Scriptures say that the A/C will not be known until the Holy Spirit is removed from the earth at the Rapture. THEN the A/C will be seen and known. Then he will rule for 3 and 1/2 years and then stand in the temple and declare himself to be God.

The 7 year tribulation will begin immediately after the Rapture because the A/c will then come to power.

I agre that the Mark will be a tattoo on the skin , a literal mark which I think will be the UPC Bar code. THAT is what will allow a cashless society to and the ability to track those Jews who come to Christ.

Military action is also in the Luke version of the Olivet Discourse. In Luke 21:20 it says "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near."

If you look at the Gog / Magog invasion closely it seems to read that Gog is victorious in the beginning and it is Jesus himself a period of time later, and not an earthly military that destroys Gog and his army.

I interpret that the antichrist and gog are the same person. Gog takes Jerusalem and sets up the abomination of desolation and kills many of the Israeli people and drives many others out. Gog holds Jerusalem for about 3.5 years and Jesus returns to destroy Gog / antichrist. Then with Jesus back to rule for 1000 years the remnant of Israel and the Jewish people return to the land and bury the remains of Gog and his army.

Ezekiel 39 talking about the end of the Gog / Magog war from verse 23 on talks about Israel going into captivity for their iniquity and being given into the hand of their adversary. Then it talks about them being restored by The Lord.

I am of the interpretation that Israel will in the future be given into Gog's / antichrist's hand and then be restored by Jesus ushering in the millenium.

 

[Major1]

Paul wasn't referring to the Holy Spirit. He was referring indirectly to the Roman empire, as Chrysostom explained.

I for one do not agree with that idea.


Kenneth Wuest, the well known Greek scholar from Moody Bible Institute added the following
contextual support to taking apostasia as a physical departure:

"But then hee apostasia of which Paul is speaking, precedes the revelation of
Antichrist in his true identity, and is to katechon that which holds back

The hee apostasia, therefore, cannot be either a general
apostasy in Christendom which does precede the coming of Antichrist, nor
can it be the particular apostasy which is the result of his activities in making
himself the alone object of worship. Furthermore, that which holds back his
revelation (vs. 3) is vitally connected with hoo katechoon (vs. 7), He who holds
back the same event. The latter is, in my opinion, the Holy Spirit and His
activities in the Church. All of which means that I am driven to the
inescapable conclusion that the hee apostasia (vs. 3) refers to the Rapture of the
Church which precedes the Day of the Lord, and holds back the revelation of
the Man of Sin who ushers in the world-aspect of that period."
(Letter to E. Schuyler English, published in “Let the Prophets Speak,” Our Hope, (vol.
LVI, num. 12; June 1950), p. 731.)

 

[Major1]

Military action is also in the Luke version of the Olivet Discourse. In Luke 21:20 it says "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near."

If you look at the Gog / Magog invasion closely it seems to read that Gog is victorious in the beginning and it is Jesus himself a period of time later, and not an earthly military that destroys Gog and his army.

I interpret that the antichrist and gog are the same person. Gog takes Jerusalem and sets up the abomination of desolation and kills many of the Israeli people and drives many others out. Gog holds Jerusalem for about 3.5 years and Jesus returns to destroy Gog / antichrist. Then with Jesus back to rule for 1000 years the remnant of Israel and the Jewish people return to the land and bury the remains of Gog and his army.

Ezekiel 39 talking about the end of the Gog / Magog war from verse 23 on talks about Israel going into captivity for their iniquity and being given into the hand of their adversary. Then it talks about them being restored by The Lord.

I am of the interpretation that Israel will in the future be given into Gog's / antichrist's hand and then be restored by Jesus ushering in the millenium after the initial military loss.

I am not of that understanding but I will not argue the difference.

Most commentators understand Luke 21:20 to be the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD and it makes sense to me as well.
Here is an outstanding link that will explain it to you better than I can.........
Luke 21:20-24 Commentary | Precept Austin

I understand Gog and Magog to be a confederation of nations as listed in the Scriptures and the A/C is a "Person".

 

[VARZR]

I am not of that understanding but I will not argue the difference.

Most commentators understand Luke 21:20 to be the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD and it makes sense to me as well.
Here is an outstanding link that will explain it to you better than I can.........
Luke 21:20-24 Commentary | Precept Austin

I understand Gog and Magog to be a confederation of nations as listed in the Scriptures and the A/C is a "Person".

Gog is the chief prince of the land of Meshech and Tubal. So Gog is a person and Magog is "the land of Magog". So Gog is the leader of this coalition of nations but Gog is a person.

Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 are all the same speech given by Jesus told by different authors. It reads pretty clearly, at least to me that this is concerning the end and the return of Jesus. Matthew and Mark says the abomination of desolation and Luke writes in the same spot in his account of this speech when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies.

 

[Major1]

Gog is the chief prince of the land of Meshech and Tubal. So Gog is a person and Magog is "the land of Magog". So Gog is the leader of this coalition of nations but Gog is a person.

Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 are all the same speech given by Jesus told by different authors. It reads pretty clearly, at least to me that this is concerning the end and the return of Jesus. Matthew and Mark says the abomination of desolation and Luke writes in the same spot in his account of this speech when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies.

I do not think so. Maybe "an" A/C but I do not think THE A/C.

Again, I do not agree and I think Jesus was telling the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

 

[VARZR]

I read the Bible and have my own interpretation of what is likely to happen at the end. I don't claim to know for sure but from what is written and what has happened in history and in the world currently I have what I feel is the likely course of events to happen.

With that being said. I will share with people what I expect to happen based on what is written in the Bible. But I will also keep a little file in my head of what other people expect to happen. From there I just keep an eye on what is happening in the world to see if one sequence of events or another seems to be taking place or shaping up to take place.

I personally feel that the antichrist will be the muslim mahdi and lead the invasion described in Ezekiel 38-39. However if I see the Roman empire revived and the Pope set up a throne in Israel I will make an adjustment to my interpretation based on what is actually happening.

It is good and well to have our own Biblical based theory on what is to take place but it is also important to have some broad knowledge of all interpretations so we can read the signs of the times to be prepared and to help others to prepare.

 

[jgr]

I for one do not agree with that idea.


Kenneth Wuest, the well known Greek scholar from Moody Bible Institute added the following
contextual support to taking apostasia as a physical departure:

"But then hee apostasia of which Paul is speaking, precedes the revelation of
Antichrist in his true identity, and is to katechon that which holds back

The hee apostasia, therefore, cannot be either a general
apostasy in Christendom which does precede the coming of Antichrist, nor
can it be the particular apostasy which is the result of his activities in making
himself the alone object of worship. Furthermore, that which holds back his
revelation (vs. 3) is vitally connected with hoo katechoon (vs. 7), He who holds
back the same event. The latter is, in my opinion, the Holy Spirit and His
activities in the Church. All of which means that I am driven to the
inescapable conclusion that the hee apostasia (vs. 3) refers to the Rapture of the
Church which precedes the Day of the Lord, and holds back the revelation of
the Man of Sin who ushers in the world-aspect of that period."
(Letter to E. Schuyler English, published in “Let the Prophets Speak,” Our Hope, (vol.
LVI, num. 12; June 1950), p. 731.)

Your privilege.

However, Paul's prophecy is confirmed in history.

 

[Bible2+]

Major1 said in post #331:

Scripture does seem to indicate a military action in Ezekiel 38. That conflict could then lead to the peace agreement spoken of by Daniel in 9:27 which is by the way a 7 year peace treaty.

Regarding Ezekiel 38, note the Gog/Magog invasion of Israel (Ezekiel chapters 38-39) won't occur until after the future Millennium (Revelation 20:7-10), when there will be no defensive walls or fear of attack in Israel whatsoever (Ezekiel 38:11). This is the exact opposite of today's situation, when Israel is filled with very high defensive walls and is in constant fear of attack. At the beginning of the Millennium, all present-day weapons of war throughout the world will be destroyed and they won't be allowed to be remade during the Millennium (Micah 4:3-4). That's why after the Millennium, the Gog/Magog armies will employ only rudimentary, wooden weapons like bows and arrows, spears, shields, and clubs (Ezekiel 39:9), which, after the defeat of the Gog/Magog armies, will be able to be used as convenient firewood by the people living in Israel at that time, instead of them having to go out and collect or cut down firewood from the forest (Ezekiel 39:10).

The Gog in Revelation 20:8 is the same as in Ezekiel chapters 38-39: an individual human whose personal name is "Gog" (Ezekiel 38:3). He will be the chief leader of a future country which will form somewhere north of Israel (Ezekiel 39:2, Ezekiel 38:15), and which will be called "Magog" (Ezekiel 38:2). It will include at least two major cities and/or tribes which will be called "Meshech" and "Tubal" (Ezekiel 38:2). This country could come into existence during the Millennium. Gog could be born near the end of the Millennium, and he will be killed and buried at the end of the Gog/Magog event (Ezekiel 39:11).

Both accounts of the event show the Gog/Magog armies will ultimately be completely defeated by miraculous fire from heaven (Ezekiel 38:22, Revelation 20:9). Also, whereas the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) will occur subsequent to the Gog/Magog event (Revelation 20:7-15), nothing requires (as is sometimes claimed) that the Great White Throne Judgment has to happen immediately after that event. For there will be at least seven years (Ezekiel 39:9b) between the end of that event and the Great White Throne Judgment.

Also, the Gog/Magog attack won't have to (as is sometimes claimed) involve only the nations listed in Ezekiel chapters 38-39. Those nations could be just a sampling. For the "nations" (ethnos), or peoples, who will be involved in the Gog/Magog attack will come from all over the earth (Revelation 20:8). They will still be physically part of Jesus Christ's worldwide Kingdom, still legally under His rule, just as they had been during the preceding Millennium (Psalms 72:8-11, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 2). But after the Millennium, they will be deceived by Satan into committing the attack (Revelation 20:7-10).

Also, while the Gog/Magog attack on Israel won't occur until after the future Millennium (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), Israel could suffer a different attack before the Millennium, at the start of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which attack could result in Israel's total defeat and occupation (Daniel 11:15-17).

Also, the city of Jerusalem could be attacked and totally defeated in the future at least three times before the Millennium: once near the start of the future Tribulation (Daniel 11:22), then again mid-tribulation (Daniel 11:31), and then at the Tribulation's end (Daniel 11:45), right before Jesus Christ's Second Coming and the start of the Millennium (Zechariah 14:2-21).