Avoiding church due to hypocrisy and lukewarmness

[Rev Randy]

Well so far I haven't found one.

Then your search is not complete. I have added you to my prayer list. May the Lord lead you where He would have you be.

 

[CallingInTheDesert]

All I have argued is that the truth comes before all else, and where the truth has been compromised and not taught in it's purity, then one should avoid those churches where this happens. But my position has nothing to do with avoiding people who are lukewarm in their faith.

It's because Christian doctrine isn't purely taught in these churches that many people who attend them are secular minded and not true Christians. But it's impossible to correct these churches teachings from within. If you go to these churches and point out that they aren't teaching the truth purely, the pastors and false teachers who are in control soon make it plain that you're not welcome, and if you don't like them to go elsewhere etc.

There's only one sensible option, and that is to simply stay away and not get involved in trying to reform heterodox churches.

I totally understand and agree with what you are saying. I go to many churches and have been rejected countless times for telling and showing the Truth, which usually (but with not all) results in the pastor or leaders asking me not to come back. This is what the Apostles had to go through as well, but they kept on moving to others in the hope for the Truth of the Gospel to catch on.

When I go to other churches and usually spend months with them at a time in the sunday schools, services, helping others, and church activities, I am usually rejected by most church leaders, because I become a threat to their prideful position and beliefs. But, it is not the leaders I have to be concerned about, because most of them are cemented into a foundation of deceptions. It is the attendies of the church that I have been able to make a difference with.

There are sometimes one or two attendies that are not yet totally corrupted by church traditions, church politics, and the corruption of keeping the church business going. This is why I go to help save the one or two from the jaws of the deceptions within the churches. Even if one is saved and enabled to fully come to God - it is worth it to all of heaven and all of heaven rejoices with me.

It is for the love of God, His Truth, and the love of others that I keep me fighting this spiritual war. This is what God has called me to do, but I understand this calling is not for everyone. But by how you talk, I thought you might be one that is called to do this and maybe just needed some godly encouragement.

 

[TruthWarrior]

Neither, though. Show them who Christ is. Be the light shining through the darkness. Embrace kindness, truth, patience, honesty. Show what temperance really is.

If a church is full of false doctrine, one person can't change that. But, one person can change the hearts of those lost in its midst.

I did it. I am still helping those who attend my old church break the bonds. Not by telling them "get out of there or I can't be around you." Nah. By talking to them, and teaching them real Scriptural Truth. It is opening their eyes to the wrongness there, and because they DO have an honest desire to serve God, they are seeing the lies.

No, I just can't stand hypocrisy. When I asked the church for help exposing elite pedophile rings, they were not interested. Another guy I know, who is also a Christian, said the same thing. He, too, is working to expose child abuse rings that are being run by the elite, yet all the churches he goes to refuses to get involved. So here we have Christians who claim to love God, yet they have no interest in helping children who are being raped and tortured. They will be getting a first class ticket to hell.

 

[Edward65]

Where did this Christianity come from that says we should avoid people? What about edification, about teaching those who are less mature? What about giving so that we may receive? What about LOVE?

This Christianity came from St Paul:

[17] I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. [18] For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.

(Romans 16:17-18 ESV)

We can edify and teach and love in the whole wide world and Christians are called to do this. But we're forbidden by St Paul to do it in a heterodox church controlled by false teachers.

 

[motherprayer]

We can edify and teach and love in the whole wide world and Christians are called to do this. But we're forbidden by St Paul to do it in a heterodox church controlled by false teachers.

I agree. What I disagree with is that ALL churches are controlled by false leaders.

 

[motherprayer]

No, I just can't stand hypocrisy. When I asked the church for help exposing elite pedophile rings, they were not interested. Another guy I know, who is also a Christian, said the same thing. He, too, is working to expose child abuse rings that are being run by the elite, yet all the churches he goes to refuses to get involved. So here we have Christians who claim to love God, yet they have no interest in helping children who are being raped and tortured. They will be getting a first class ticket to hell.

Don't say that. If you are called to expose the ring, expose it. But it may be that God desires for you to do it by yourself. That doesn't mean the church was bad for not helping you. They have to follow God's vision for THEM. Not God's vision for you.

 

[CallingInTheDesert]

The problem is the churches of today have lost one elemental piece of Truth - that being Christ-like is about "my" walk, not "everyone else's" walk. It is about examining ONESELF to see if you are in the faith.

This is what I am fighting - for people to look at themselves and see that the sins they easily confess and are confortable with - that they see they should not be confortable in their sins, or except their sins as being okay.

Most churches are instructing people that they will never be free of their sinful nature until after death and that they will always keep sinning in some way. This is not of God and it is a devastation upon the Truth of God to proclaim this as God's Truth.

By the way - as Paul proclaimed that He was perfect and that people should be like Him and the other godly perfect people, so do I proclaim that I have the right in Christ to proclaim that others should be holy as God is holy. It is for the mature in Christ to call others to be holy - the same holiness that God has put in them(me).

Col 1:28-29 - Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. To this end I also labor, striving according to His working which works in me mightily. NKJV

2 Tim 3:16-17 - All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. NKJV

Heb 13:21 - Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. KJV

Phil 3:15 - Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. KJV

 

[Edward65]

No, I just can't stand hypocrisy. When I asked the church for help exposing elite pedophile rings, they were not interested. Another guy I know, who is also a Christian, said the same thing. He, too, is working to expose child abuse rings that are being run by the elite, yet all the churches he goes to refuses to get involved. So here we have Christians who claim to love God, yet they have no interest in helping children who are being raped and tortured. They will be getting a first class ticket to hell.

It's not the role of any church to involve itself in what is an investigative matter that should be left to the police. A Christian church should concern itself primarily with preaching the Gospel and not get entangled with secular matters. That's why we have a police force so that serious crime can be dealt with. If you have information which would assist in the prevention of crime then you need to go to the police not the church. You are unfairly judging people when you condemn them to hell like this.

 

[motherprayer]

This is what I am fighting - for people to look at themselves and see that the sins they easily confess and are confortable with - that they see they should not be confortable in their sins, or except their sins as being okay.

Most churches are instructing people that they will never be free of their sinful nature until after death and that they will always keep sinning in some way. This is not of God and it is a devastation upon the Truth of God to proclaim this as God's Truth.

By the way - as Paul proclaimed that He was perfect and that people should be like Him and the other godly perfect people, so do I proclaim that I have the right in Christ to proclaim that others should be holy as God is holy. It is for the mature in Christ to call others to be holy - the same holiness that God has put in them(me).

Col 1:28-29 - Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. To this end I also labor, striving according to His working which works in me mightily. NKJV

2 Tim 3:16-17 - All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. NKJV

Heb 13:21 - Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. KJV

Phil 3:15 - Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. KJV

Others, they, them...

 

[TruthWarrior]

Don't say that. If you are called to expose the ring, expose it. But it may be that God desires for you to do it by yourself. That doesn't mean the church was bad for not helping you. They have to follow God's vision for THEM. Not God's vision for you.

Typical cop out.

 

[TruthWarrior]

It's not the role of any church to involve itself in what is an investigative matter that should be left to the police. A Christian church should concern itself primarily with preaching the Gospel and not get entangled with secular matters. That's why we have a police force so that serious crime can be dealt with. If you have information which would assist in the prevention of crime then you need to go to the police not the church. You are unfairly judging people when you condemn them to hell like this.

Typical cop out.

 

[motherprayer]

Typical cop out.

So the "right" church would be the one who changes its vision to suit yours then?

 

[CallingInTheDesert]

Others, they, them...

Christ didn't come to save himself from sin, but to save others from their sin.

Since I am IN Christ and sitting IN Christ on His throne with Him, I too have the same duty. To help save others from their sin, but first they have to see they are sick before they see the need to get well.

So, as you are trying to point out my sins for doing God's work, how about you take your own advice and concentrate on your own sins that you have indicated you have.

Search for God's kingdom and His righteousness and you will be filled.

 

[motherprayer]

Christ didn't come to save himself from sin, but to save others from their sin.

Since I am IN Christ and sitting IN Christ on His throne with Him, I too have the same duty. To help save others from their sin, but first they have to see they are sick before they see the need to get well.

So, as you are trying to point out my sins for doing God's work, how about you take your own advice and concentrate on your own sins that you have indicated you have.

Search for God's kingdom and His righteousness and you will be filled.

I'm not pointing out anyone's sins, my friend. I just noticed a pattern, and mentioned it. I have a calling myself, to encourage others who are struggling due to those who teach that we should be perfect but DON'T teach HOW to be perfect, thereby leaving the babes in the dust.

 

[TruthWarrior]

So the "right" church would be the one who changes its vision to suit yours then?

Errr no, just a church that is willing to help expose the rape and torture of little children. Please forgive me for asking for such a big request

 

[motherprayer]

Errr no, just a church that refuses to turn a blind eye to the rape and torture of little children. Please forgive me for asking for such a big request

No one is saying they should. But a spirit-led church is a vision-led church. They can stand in prayer for circumstances like this, but they can't deny the vision God gave to THEM to do something outside of that vision.

Some churches are called to send missionaries overseas. Does that mean they don't care about poverty in America? Of course not! Others are called to reach the masses in their neighborhood. Does that mean they don't care about those far away from them? Of course not!

 

[TruthWarrior]

No one is saying they should. But a spirit-led church is a vision-led church. They can stand in prayer for circumstances like this, but they can't deny the vision God gave to THEM to do something outside of that vision.

Some churches are called to send missionaries overseas. Does that mean they don't care about poverty in America? Of course not! Others are called to reach the masses in their neighborhood. Does that mean they don't care about those far away from them? Of course not!

Who said anything about visions? What you're saying is just a typical cop out.

 

[motherprayer]

Who said anything about visions? What you're saying is just a typical cop out.

Nope. It is reality. I have a vision for my own life. I can't change that vision to suit a church, and I wouldn't ask a church to change its vision to suit mine.

God gives people a heart for something. Mine is for the struggling believer. The one who appears lukewarm but inside struggles to get right. Yours is for rape victims, and that's an honorable one.

And I've found, as I've followed the vision God has given me, that at times I have to follow what He wants me to do WITH NO HELP FROM OTHERS.

 

[ST1TCH]

The Holy Spirit resides in the hearts of the righteous sons of God, but where are the righteous sons of God in todays churches.

The "Spirit" of God will work with people and get them through their sanctification - if they earnestly desire it, but a person only has the "Holy Spirit" when they have come to fully obey God out of love for Him and His Truth.

Most Christians have God's "Spirit" working in them, but they don't have God's "Holy Spirit"

If anyone is still knowingly sinning, then they don't have the "Holy Spirit" in them. God will not marry Himself to sin. God will not go against His own commandment of being unequally yoked with a non-believer.

A believer is a person that believes God's Truth and always obeys it. Anytime a "believer" sins, they are showing that they don't really believe and trust God's Truth - so they are not a true believe of Christ.

A person has to be a full believer in God's Truth and show it by their actions before God will send them the "Holy Spirit".

Since todays churches don't fully believe God's Truth anymore, then God cannot send His Holy Spirit there either.

Now, there is the real Church of God in the few true believers around the world, but our local churches are not God's church any longer.

Since no one else in this thread has said it, I'll be the first to go out on a limb and let you know that what you're expressing here is false doctrine. There are multiple verses by Paul (some posted here) that dispute your claim. So you're no better with the "truth" than the ones you're attempting to condemn. So now there's God's 'Spirit' AND the 'Holy Spirit'? 2 separate instances/entities? Proof please? The Holy Spirit came upon the disciples at Pentecost, the same disciples that included Peter who had just denied Christ about 40 days earlier, Thomas who doubted what everyone told him, etc. These guys weren't perfect by any stretch of the imaginaton when they received the Holy Spirit.

I also find it funny that the 3 or 4 individuals in this thread that are attacking essentially all churches for not speaking the "truth" can't even agree between themselves.

- One of them is a conspiracy nut
- One of them is essentially an SDA because we're sinning by not worshipping on the "Sabbath"
- One of them holds to the Catholic view of communion

Sheesh guys, generalize much? You're taking your very myopic, small world view of the churches in your immediate vicinity (which I am farily certain there are a few churches around each of you that truly are good Christian churches teaching the truth, just not your version of the truth) and projecting that view on all of Christendom throughout America and the world. I would dare to say that the percentage of churches that are heretical like you claim is a much smaller number than you like to think. At most 25% of all churches in America.

 

[ST1TCH]

Nope. It is reality. I have a vision for my own life. I can't change that vision to suit a church, and I wouldn't ask a church to change its vision to suit mine.

God gives people a heart for something. Mine is for the struggling believer. The one who appears lukewarm but inside struggles to get right. Yours is for rape victims, and that's an honorable one.

And I've found, as I've followed the vision God has given me, that at times I have to follow what He wants me to do WITH NO HELP FROM OTHERS.

A good example of this is how Louie Giglio handled the recent controversy over a sermon 20 years old and chose to step down from doing the Presidential innauguration. It's not the vision of Passion, both the movement and his church, to spend all their time railing against homosexuality and attacking the people stuck in that sin. They have a different vision that is important to them. Do they believe it's a sin? Yes. Do they feel it should be the focus of their ministry? No.