Avoiding church due to hypocrisy and lukewarmness

[motherprayer]

I encourage you to attend churches and fight the good fight for God. Go into the churches like I do and fight the lies that people are believing with God's Truth. After awhile, if they don't want to come to the Truth, then shake off the dust off your feet and go onto the next church to do the Lord's work and fight for His Truth.

This is what God calls anyone that has been given His Truth, to proclaim and protect the Truth. God calls us to overcome the lies with Truth, so that people can be truly saved from their sin bondage. God calls us to be courageous and not be cowardly.

Go in, tell them how wrong they are, and then walk out when they get mad, huh? No.

 

[CallingInTheDesert]

The Holy Spirit will never leave the Church as long as a single Christian is there. You do remember where the Holy Spirit resides.

The Holy Spirit resides in the hearts of the righteous sons of God, but where are the righteous sons of God in todays churches.

The "Spirit" of God will work with people and get them through their sanctification - if they earnestly desire it, but a person only has the "Holy Spirit" when they have come to fully obey God out of love for Him and His Truth.

Most Christians have God's "Spirit" working in them, but they don't have God's "Holy Spirit"

If anyone is still knowingly sinning, then they don't have the "Holy Spirit" in them. God will not marry Himself to sin. God will not go against His own commandment of being unequally yoked with a non-believer.

A believer is a person that believes God's Truth and always obeys it. Anytime a "believer" sins, they are showing that they don't really believe and trust God's Truth - so they are not a true believe of Christ.

A person has to be a full believer in God's Truth and show it by their actions before God will send them the "Holy Spirit".

Since todays churches don't fully believe God's Truth anymore, then God cannot send His Holy Spirit there either.

Now, there is the real Church of God in the few true believers around the world, but our local churches are not God's church any longer.

 

[motherprayer]

Not true. There are churches which preach Scriptural doctrine, and which grow believers. They tend to be small but they are there and they are true.

In other words, go out and attend every single church in the world, and then come back and say that.

 

[CallingInTheDesert]

Go in, tell them how wrong they are, and then walk out when they get mad, huh? No.

So, what do you mean by this. Do you believe we should fight the lies of the devil with Truth, or are you saying that keeping the unity in a church is above the value of Truth? Or do you mean something else - please explain.

 

[motherprayer]

So, what do you mean by this. Do you believe we should fight the lies of the devil with Truth, or are you saying that keeping the unity in a church is above the value of Truth? Or do you mean something else - please explain.

I'm saying shine our lights. Our WALK should be instruction as to how to be a good Christian. There is only one piece of doctrine that matters, that we are saved BY grace THROUGH faith in Christ Jesus. There ARE churches which teach how to walk by faith. It isn't a matter of which denomination either.

How do we know that we have passed from death to life? IF WE LOVE THE BRETHEN! How can we love the brethren if we continuously search them for error? How can we love the brethren if we do not correct that error with charity? How can we correct them with charity if we do not teach them?

Or, as Paul said:
Romans 10:14-17 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[CallingInTheDesert]

Not true. There are churches which preach Scriptural doctrine, and which grow believers. They tend to be small but they are there and they are true.

In other words, go out and attend every single church in the world, and then come back and say that.

I agree your church that you attend does seem more in line with God's Truth from the one sermon I listened to, but when I talk about todays chruches, I am talking about the world's churches on a whole - most churches.

Let me ask you, does your church teach that we can be made perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect in this life?

Does your church teach that we can be entirely sanctified in this life and no longer sin after being born again?

Does your church teach that if we are born again, that a person no longer has any selfishness or evil in them and that their sinful nature has been eradicated from them - when they are born of God?

Does your church teach that we are born again at the end of our sanctification instead of the lie that we are born again at justification?

Please take the time to answer these questions individually.

 

[Edward65]

No, they're not. Or, as my three-year-old would say, nu-uh.

I've been to several churches which stress Scriptural doctrine and encourage growth in their followers.

Narrow is the path. We are called to spread the Gospel, we are called to take care of our beams before plucking others' motes. We are called to fellowship with other believers.

Yes. That DOES mean encountering people who don't have the same zeal or passion. So what. A person can't learn what passion is if all the passionate ones hide themselves away, OR if all the passionate ones get angry because of the real Scriptural Truth that many are called but few are chosen. OR if all the passionate ones become sanctimonious Pharisees. Hmph.

What happened to sharing the Gospel with an honest heart for the unbeliever?

I haven't made any negative comments about those who attend what I consider heterodox churches. There will no doubt be some genuine Christians who attend them, who are simply in error over some things, or who don't perceive that alongside the truth there is also taught unscriptural doctrines. I haven't argued that if some people are lukewarm they shouldn't be encouraged to be more fervent. I also agree with you that if one looks down upon others as inferior Christians simply because they are less energised as oneself then that does make one a sanctimonious Pharisee.

All I have argued is that the truth comes before all else, and where the truth has been compromised and not taught in it's purity, then one should avoid those churches where this happens. But my position has nothing to do with avoiding people who are lukewarm in their faith.

It's because Christian doctrine isn't purely taught in these churches that many people who attend them are secular minded and not true Christians. But it's impossible to correct these churches teachings from within. If you go to these churches and point out that they aren't teaching the truth purely, the pastors and false teachers who are in control soon make it plain that you're not welcome, and if you don't like them to go elsewhere etc.

There's only one sensible option, and that is to simply stay away and not get involved in trying to reform heterodox churches.

 

[motherprayer]

I agree your church that you attend does seem more in line with God's Truth from the one sermon I listened to, but when I talk about todays chruches, I am talking about the world's churches on a whole - most churches.

Let me ask you, does your church teach that we can be made perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect in this life?

Does your church teach that we can be entirely sanctified in this life and no longer sin after being born again?

Does your church teach that if we are born again, that a person no longer has any selfishness or evil in them and that their sinful nature has been eradicated from them - when they are born of God?

Does your church teach that we are born again at the end of our sanctification instead of the lie that we are born again at justification?

Please take the time to answer these questions individually.

Rather than answer, I have a video for you. I think you'll like it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUK346IwGxk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[motherprayer]

I haven't made any negative comments about those who attend what I consider heterodox churches. There will no doubt be some genuine Christians who attend them, who are simply in error over some things, or who don't perceive that alongside the truth there is also taught unscriptural doctrines. I haven't argued that if some people are lukewarm they shouldn't be encouraged to be more fervent. I also agree with you that if one looks down upon others as inferior Christians simply because they are less energised as oneself then that does make one a sanctimonious Pharisee.

All I have argued is that the truth comes before all else, and where the truth has been compromised and not taught in it's purity, then one should avoid those churches where this happens. But my position has nothing to do with avoiding people who are lukewarm in their faith.

It's because Christian doctrine isn't purely taught in these churches that many people who attend them are secular minded and not true Christians. But it's impossible to correct these churches teachings from within. If you go to these churches and point out that they aren't teaching the truth purely, the pastors and false teachers who are in control soon make it plain that you're not welcome, and if you don't like them to go elsewhere etc.

There's only one sensible option, and that is to simply stay away and not get involved in trying to reform heterodox churches.

Where did this Christianity come from that says we should avoid people? What about edification, about teaching those who are less mature? What about giving so that we may receive? What about LOVE?

 

[CallingInTheDesert]

I'm saying shine our lights. Our WALK should be instruction as to how to be a good Christian. There is only one piece of doctrine that matters, that we are saved BY grace THROUGH faith in Christ Jesus. There ARE churches which teach how to walk by faith. It isn't a matter of which denomination either.

How do we know that we have passed from death to life? IF WE LOVE THE BRETHEN! How can we love the brethren if we continuously search them for error? How can we love the brethren if we do not correct that error with charity? How can we correct them with charity if we do not teach them?

Or, as Paul said:
Romans 10:14-17 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

I totally agree that we must show God's Truth in Love as well. But this is where most lack - The truth has to be spoken as well and then backed up with lifestyle. Both are needed.

God calls to proclaim His Truth, not just to live love and be quiet so we don't hurt people's selfish feelings - that is not the love of God. God's love is always what is best for the other person. God's love is not telling them or enabling them to keep believing lies, which only the light of the Truth can show them.

I admire the love you talk about and share, but Truth is needed to have people understand God and His love.

God's Word does not say that love will set you free, even though love is truth in action. What God's Word says is that "The Truth will set you free".

The world churches have tried to concentrate on loving others, but they have left the Truth of God behind in trying to do so. Trying to love God and/or others without the Truth is a disaster and that is what has happened to the world's churches. They left the Truth, so they don't even know what God's Love even looks like anymore - except for the small percentage in God's kingdom that are the true church of God.

 

[TruthWarrior]

There's no table, just one passage of scripture that you've ignored. Picked and chosen to ignore.

Let us hold fast to the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who has promised is faithful. And let us consider how to provoke one another to love and good deeds, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day approaching. For if we wilfully persist in sin after having received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgement, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.
(Hebrews 10:23-27)

As usual you ignore the context. If a church is secular and lukewarm, it's best to avoid it. Most of the early churches were full of truth and passion, so much so that the early Christians were willing to be skinned alive and crucified for their faith. I can't say the same for most churches today. You're the one who neglects God's holy Sabbath day, so remove the log from your own eye first.

 

[Rev Randy]

I encourage you to attend churches and fight the good fight for God. Go into the churches like I do and fight the lies that people are believing with God's Truth. After awhile, if they don't want to come to the Truth, then shake off the dust off your feet and go onto the next church to do the Lord's work and fight for His Truth.

This is what God calls anyone that has been given His Truth, to proclaim and protect the Truth. God calls us to overcome the lies with Truth, so that people can be truly saved from their sin bondage. God calls us to be courageous and not be cowardly.

Good advice as long as we remember that we as individuals do not have a patent on the truth. The truth in whole is given to no single person but unto the Body of Christ. The fact that I don't agree with a groups position on a matter does not make that position incorrect. We know only in part.

 

[TruthWarrior]

I don't agree with these conspiracy theories you're espousing. It too easy to be taken in by them and that's what Satan wants to happen. If you get taken in by them, ordinary people who have got some handle on reality will regard what you rightly say about the churches as also false. I've taken a fairly close interest in what happened on 9/11 and I'm fully satisfied in my own mind that there was no Government collusion. Anyway that's another subject which isn't the subject of this thread, so I don't want to get involved in any discussion about that.

Also I don't agree with your Sabbath day belief either:

[16] Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. [17] These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.
(Colossians 2:16-17 ESV)

[5] One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. [6] The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord.
(Romans 14:5-6 ESV)

These verses show that the Sabbath isn't obligatory for Christians. Also when the Apostles met in Jerusalem to discuss what was necessary for the Gentile Christians to observe, Sabbath keeping wasn't one of them:

[19] Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, [20] but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood.
(Acts 15:19-20 ESV)

Sorry brother, I couldn't disagree more. But let's disagree in a friendly manner. There's no need to have any hard feelings.

 

[motherprayer]

The world churches have tried to concentrate on loving others, but they have left the Truth of God behind in trying to do so. Trying to love God and/or others without the Truth is a disaster and that is what has happened to the world's churches. They left the Truth, so they don't even know what God's Love even looks like anymore - except for the small percentage in God's kingdom that are the true church of God.

The problem is the churches of today have lost one elemental piece of Truth - that being Christ-like is about "my" walk, not "everyone else's" walk. It is about examining ONESELF to see if you are in the faith.

Christians are being programmed to focus more on the sins of others than on their OWN sin, which is NOT Scriptural. They are being given excuses, like "avoiding church due to lukewarmness" to not give outwardly of themselves, but instead keep the light we are APOSTABE shining across the world to themselves.

We are called to share of ourselves. True love doesn't expect anything back in return. Christ died for us while we were yet sinners. He rose again to give us a chance to see Him again in Heaven. He didn't die so that we could condemn people!

He didn't die so that Christians who think they've lost their need of Him can sit back and not fight for the Truth - THE GOSPEL!

We need to love, with TRUTH. The Truth that fellowship is one of the most important parts of being a Christian, and part of fellowship is lifting up the babes in Christ who aren't there yet.

 

[TruthWarrior]

Not all churches are the way you say all churches are.

Well so far I haven't found one.

 

[motherprayer]

Sorry brother, I couldn't disagree more. But let's disagree in a friendly manner. There's no need to have any hard feelings.

This. Awesome.

This is how fellowship begins. Thank you.

 

[motherprayer]

Well so far I haven't found one.

I know, and that is normal. I promise I wasn't trying to imply that even most churches are like that. But in the midst of the prosperity preachers, the hell and brimstone preachers, and the Sunday Christian preachers, there are some, most are tiny, less than 100 parishioners. Check out the video I posted, it is awesome.

 

[TruthWarrior]

Go in, tell them how wrong they are, and then walk out when they get mad, huh? No.

Or better yet, remain silent and allow them to go to an eternal hell for believing lies

 

[motherprayer]

Or better yet, remain silent and allow them to go to an eternal hell for believing lies

Neither, though. Show them who Christ is. Be the light shining through the darkness. Embrace kindness, truth, patience, honesty. Show what temperance really is.

If a church is full of false doctrine, one person can't change that. But, one person can change the hearts of those lost in its midst.

I did it. I am still helping those who attend my old church break the bonds. Not by telling them "get out of there or I can't be around you." Nah. By talking to them, and teaching them real Scriptural Truth. It is opening their eyes to the wrongness there, and because they DO have an honest desire to serve God, they are seeing the lies.

 

[Rev Randy]

The problem is the churches of today have lost one elemental piece of Truth - that being Christ-like is about "my" walk, not "everyone else's" walk. It is about examining ONESELF to see if you are in the faith.

Christians are being programmed to focus more on the sins of others than on their OWN sin, which is NOT Scriptural. They are being given excuses, like "avoiding church due to lukewarmness" to not give outwardly of themselves, but instead keep the light we are APOSTABE shining across the world to themselves.

We are called to share of ourselves. True love doesn't expect anything back in return. Christ died for us while we were yet sinners. He rose again to give us a chance to see Him again in Heaven. He didn't die so that we could condemn people!

He didn't die so that Christians who think they've lost their need of Him can sit back and not fight for the Truth - THE GOSPEL!

We need to love, with TRUTH. The Truth that fellowship is one of the most important parts of being a Christian, and part of fellowship is lifting up the babes in Christ who aren't there yet.

Thank you Holy Spirit and thank you Motherprayer and your pastor. You've been fed good meat. Love cannot fail as God is love.