AUTHORITY IN THE CHURCH, WHAT IT IS AND WHAT IT IS NOT

[TheMissingRib]

Well when someone is saying that Reverend is a name for God and the verse clearly shows that is not what the verse says.......that is why I posted what I did.

Scripture does not lie...

Psalm 111:9 He sent redemption unto his people: he hath commanded his covenant for ever: holy and "reverend" is HIS name.

And "LoveofTruth" already addressed this clearly in his posts #22 and #25 to you!!

#22

But you notice that the verse says,

"holy and reverend is his name." His name is referring to His character. For example when God says he is the "I am, or He is Holy, or He is , the Lord, a "name " signifies the character and attributes. And if "reverend" is His name. Then God alone is to be feared. We are told not to fear man, and the fear of man brings a snare. So for a minister to take such a name is wrong. Gods name alone is reverend. The word "reverend appears only once in the bible and it refers to God not man. Jesus said fear God and peter said fear God. Never do we read to fear man. For a man to take this word as a title and call themself "reverend", is not right

And to describe the name of God is to show the characteristics of that name.

But the text still says reverend IS His name. We see many examples of this

YAHWEH-JIREH: "The Lord Will Provide" (Genesis 22:14)

YAHWEH-RAPHA: "The Lord Who Heals" (Exodus 15:26)

YAHWEH-NISSI: "The Lord Our Banner" (Exodus 17:15)

YAHWEH-M'KADDESH: "The Lord Who Sanctifies, Makes Holy" (Leviticus 20:8; Ezekiel 37:28)

YAHWEH-SHALOM: "The Lord Our Peace" (Judges 6:24)

YAHWEH-TSIDKENU: "The Lord Our Righteousness” (Jeremiah 33:16)

and #25

The bible says the word "reverend" not even reverence, but "reverend" And yes God is Holy he is the source of all holiness and without God working in us and being a new creation in Him in Christ we cannot be holy or IN HIM. So no man is the source of Holy only God. But Holy and reverend is His name. The character of God is what the word "name refers to. Men should not take such a term to themselves and make it a title such as "reverend", as it is used as a title today.

 

[Berean777]

"membership"? there is no such scriptural reference for this.

1Co 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.

and

"buildings" is NOT the church

Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth NOT in temples made with hands;

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house NOT made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, NOT made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

Heb 9:24 For Christ is NOT entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

I believe "LoveofTruth" has addressed this whole issue in another thread

There doesn't need to be.

 

[Wordkeeper]

The continuous church institution has already been doing this for the last 2000 years. It has a history and chronology and culture. It remains a known quantity throughout the last 2000 years. Since it has grown in membership the congregation needs to be accommodated when they come together in communion in buildings called churches.

Good schools have class sizes which are limited. Classes with large number of students lead to poor learning.

 

[LoveofTruth]

in buildings called churches.

There you go again, an unbiblical statement. The church is not a man made building, it is the body of Christ as scripture clearly says.

I marvel at this and your misunderstanding.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Well when someone is saying that Reverend is a name for God and the verse clearly shows that is not what the verse says.......that is why I posted what I did.

I clarified that the word reverend is His name. The word defines the name of God or His character and only Him. I was rebuking man taking this as a clear "title" of position for themselves, and that is wrong. Only God is reverend. Notice the word does not say reverence, but "reverend. there is a distinction.

 

[Hank77]

And "LoveofTruth" already addressed this clearly in his posts #22 and #25 to you!!

First rudeness is not a great character attribute.

I could have sworn #20 came before #22 and 25.

 

[Berean777]

Good schools have class sizes which are limited. Classes with large number of students lead to poor learning.

Fortunately if the teacher was a fallible human being then I totally agree with you, however the teacher is not a fallible human being, he is our infallible Lord and saviour Jesus Christ. His first class was attended by 5000 men with at least 12-15 thousand of additional family members who he feed with two fish and five loafs.

This teacher can handle one class numbering the world over.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Fortunately if the teacher was a fallible human being then I totally agree with you, however the teacher is not a fallible human being, he is our infallible Lord and saviour Jesus Christ. His first class was attended by 5000 men with at least 12-15 thousand of additional family members who he feed with two fish and five loafs.

This teacher can handle one class numbering the world over.

The factor influencing learning is interaction, between teacher and student, student and students. Interaction is bad in correspondence courses. Interaction is bad in large class sizes.

The disciples asked questions. Apparently Jesus was not clear. Even explanation was not enough. The issues were more than their natural minds could bear. Jesus asked them to wait for the Holy Spirit.

To lead.

To test.

To judge.

The truth.

Conveyed by members of the body.

Tested by the members of the body.

Judged by the members of the body.

Using scripture as the sole authority.

 

[Hank77]

I clarified that the word reverend is His name. The word defines the name of God or His character and only Him.

Yes, it is a character attribute of God. Just as....
Exo 15:26 and He saith, `If thou dost really hearken to the voice of Jehovah thy God, and dost that which is right in His eyes, and hast hearkened to His commands, and kept all His statutes: none of the sickness which I laid on the Egyptians do I lay on thee, for I, Jehovah, am healing thee.

 

[Berean777]

The factor influencing learning is interaction, between teacher and student, student and students. Interaction is bad in correspondence courses. Interaction is bad in large class sizes.

The disciples asked questions. Apparently Jesus was not clear. Even explanation was not enough. The issues were more than their natural minds could bear. Jesus asked them to wait for the Holy Spirit.

To lead.

To test.

To judge.

The truth.

Conveyed by members of the body.

Tested by the members of the body.

Judged by the members of the body.

Using scripture as the sole authority.

Your forgetting the members of the body of Christ are gathering not to preach to one another, they are gathering together whilst facing towards the altar symbolising the Holy of Holies where the Lord resides. It is all about worship and not a preaching seminary, lecture of sorts, but a gathering in worship.

Your analogy of one on one teacher is a fallacy. The teacher is the Holy Ghost. When two or thee father in his name in worship, the Holy Ghost is speaking to their hearts simultaneously. This meditative worship requires order, liturgy and silence and the prayers are inwardly in speech to the Holy Ghost whilst the members are all facing in unison towards the Holy of Holies where our chief priest resides. This chief priest is Jesus Christ for all are gathered in worship in his name including the priest who kneels hundreds of times before him as an elder who along with the body of Christ are offering their prayers and not interjecting or interrupting the service.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Your forgetting the members of the body of Christ are gathering not to preach to one another, they are gathering together whilst facing towards the altar symbolising the Holy of Holies where the Lord resides. It is all about worship and not a preaching seminary, lecture of sorts, but a gathering in worship.

Your analogy of one on one teacher is a fallacy. The teacher is the Holy Ghost. When two or thee father in his name in worship, the Holy Ghost is speaking to their hearts simultaneously. This meditative worship requires order, liturgy and silence and the prayers are inwardly in speech to the Holy Ghost whilst the members are all facing in unison towards the Holy of Holies where our chief priest resides. This chief priest is Jesus Christ for all are gathered in worship in his name including the priest who kneels hundreds of times before him as an elder who along with the body of Christ are offering their prayers and not interjecting or interrupting the service.

Your post displays ignorance of the biblical model:

1 Corinthians 14: 26What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret; 28but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God. 29Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment.

 

[TheMissingRib]

First rudeness is not a great character attribute.

I could have sworn #20 came before #22 and 25.

Read post #45, it comes before #46 and after #20, #22 and #25 lol "LoveofTruth" clarified it again!!

I clarified that the word reverend is His name. The word defines the name of God or His character and only Him. I was rebuking man taking this as a clear "title" of position for themselves, and that is wrong. Only God is reverend. Notice the word does not say reverence, but "reverend. there is a distinction.

 

[Berean777]

Your post displays ignorance of the biblical model:

1 Corinthians 14: 26What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret; 28but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God. 29Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment.

That is not worship friend. Worship is an inward meditative state of being one with Christ amongst the gathered congregation. As I said it is not a seminary lecture or concert of sorts, it is inward worship. The versus you presented are completely out of context, they are where members are coming together to evangelise and therefore these are not worship gatherings. A communion is a gathering in worship, it is not a seminary lecture of sorts and evangelistic by outward human effort.

Matthew 6
5“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

Coming together in communion is in context to worship which is an inward ingrained secret worship in the closet of the heart as one of many members who each are speaking to God inwardly as the liturgy offers the prayers and requests from all the congregation who come as one collective body. Where two or three are gathered in my name there I am in the midst of them.

Your Corinthians verse is missing the context that you had left out as such.

It is a parallel drawn from speaking in tongues compared to prophesying/interpreting of scripture passages. The context is evangelistic and not worship. The whole point that Paul is pointing out, is in the ministry of an evangelist, by saying that it is better to prophesy meaning to interpret scripture than to speak in tongues by just reading scripture in a particular native language without knowing nor understanding what one is reading. This is why prophesying meaning interpreting is more important than reading it in the tongue/native language because it edifies the body of Christ as the recipients are understanding what is being read rather than just listening to a presenter without really understanding what is being read. Ok.

If we look at the context we establish it is not worship but evangelistic.

1 Corinthians 1:17
For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to evangelize--not with clever words, so that the cross of Christ will not be emptied of its effect.

You see throughout Corinthians the word Paul uses continually when meeting with the members of the body is instruction on evangelisation and not worship as you have erroneously presented.

 

[Berean777]

So these letters throughout need to be deciphered from one of worship to one of evangelism.

Ephesians 6:18a
Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, . . .

The word suplication is not an open forum where members are chatting amongst each other and sharing their views on the gospel. Suplication is to ask, to plead and these are all inward in the heart not something that requires chatting amongst other members, but rather it is a one on one point to point worship between the individual and God.

The gathering places called churches where members come in communion of worship are presenting their suplication and not their views or chatting about them. There is a place and time for that outside of the meditative prayer state that members are in whilst the liturgy is proceeding. It is like David when playing the two stringed instrument and praying with tears to God. Rather than David's stringed instrument, the liturgy provides the ambience and environment that promotes such suplication without other members interrupting one another.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Again, your posts display ignorance of the biblical model:

1 Corinthians 14: 26What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.

Edification is for the church. This is not evangelism directed to the non Christian.

 

[Berean777]

Again, your posts display ignorance of the biblical model:

1 Corinthians 14: 26What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.

Edification is for the church. This is not evangelism directed to the non Christian.

Edification is not worship.
Edification is in context to understanding what is being read from the letters (scriptures).
1 Corinthians 14 is instructing the gathered members that speaking in a foreign language (tongues) without prophesying (interpreting) is self defeating because it does not edify the body of Christ. Rather what does edify is if there is someone to interpret the scriptures (prophesy), so that it will edify the members.

It is contextually based on preaching and the word Paul uses in the Greek is evangelise. Other scriptures distinguish church gatherings from an evangelistic point of view as compared to praying in suplication which requires silence, that is no one talking.

1 Corinthians 14 in its entirety is to edify through moral instruction that is all, it has nothing to do with the question of worship in the Spirit.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Edification is not worship.
Edification is in context to understanding what is being read from the letters (scriptures).

again, I don't think I've seen such confusion as you speak in a long time

Edification means to build up as a house builder.

feminine (abstract) of a compound of 3624 and the base of 1430; architecture, i.e. (concretely) a structure; figuratively, confirmation:--building, edify(-ication, -ing).

When believers are waiting on the Lord in gatherings, all things they do will be done unto edifying. That is because Christ is the head working effectually in every believer, and he gives gifts to them and as they worship him in spirit, they will have teachings doctrines, psalms spiritual songs tongues prophecy, words of revelation from God knowledge etc .This is all part of worship.

Edification here is not just understanding what is read from letters.

1 Corinthians 14 is instructing the gathered members that speaking in a foreign language (tongues) without prophesying (interpreting) is self defeating because it does not edify the body of Christ. Rather what does edify is if there is someone to interpret the scriptures (prophesy), so that it will edify the members.

Wow, such confusion. Truly, I say this not to be hurtful, but you should consider not saying another word until you study and listen for the anointing in your spirit to teach you all things. you are to be ashamed not rightly dividing the word of truth. This is such confusion you speak . Prophecy is not interpretation of tongues. Prophecy definitely edifies the body here is what prophecy is for,

"But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. 4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. "(1 Corinthians 14:3,4)

It is contextually based on preaching and the word Paul uses in the Greek is evangelise. Other scriptures distinguish church gatherings from an evangelistic point of view as compared to praying in suplication which requires silence, that is no one talking.

1 Corinthians 14 in its entirety is to edify through moral instruction that is all, it has nothing to do with the question of worship in the Spirit.

again, I don't think I've seen such confusion as you speak in a long time

You are wrong in 1 Corinthians 14 we see a regular gathering of the saints when they come together. In this church meeting in the house they would have a full meal together 1 Cor 11 and wait for revelation and doctrine worship in songs and spiritual songs prayer tongues prophecy and all spiritual gifts 1 Cor 12 etc.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Suplication is to ask, to plead and these are all inward in the heart not something that requires chatting amongst other members, but rather it is a one on one point to point worship between the individual and God.

When believers come together and WAIT on the Lord , from that waiting they will have different gifts from God manifest in the gatherings. As scripture clearly shows,

"5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation..." ( Romans 12:5-8)


Here we see that as we gather and as we are all members obe of another, there will be a waiting. Prophecy also needs to be waited upon. as we read in 1 Cor 134,

"30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted."(1 Corinthians 14:30,31)

I think what you do is look at your ritualistic liturgical gathering with an altar and a man at the front, (perhaps a priest in your case), and you try to justify what you do and yet scripture clearly shows a different thing than your whole religious form and gatherings. So you try to twist scripture and make things up to try and make sense. You ignore the clear verses sadly.

The gathering places called churches

No such things in the scriptures. The church is the body of Christ a spiritual house not made with hands. All we read in scripture is, "the church which meets in their house". You keep making the same error, over and over again. It is so engrained in the minds of men the false traditions of men that they can barely escape from them. I feel like Stephen when he cried to the lost religious men and he said,

"48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?50 Hath not my hand made all these things?51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."(Acts 7:48-51)

and then what did they do,

"54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth."(Acts 7:54)

It seems when men's traditions and idols are exposed they get very angry and attack. I pray your not like them my friend. I may be hard on you at times, but it is with good intentions.

where members come in communion of worship are presenting their suplication and not their views or chatting about them. There is a place and time for that outside of the meditative prayer state that members are in whilst the liturgy is proceeding.

No as the believers come and gather in their hearts to the Lord and wait on Him all things can come forth from that. We do not read of your liturgical order in scripture. The ritual that many Orthadox and Catholics and other forms have is totally unbiblical. To try and fashion their meetings after the High priest and the tabernacle and altars and robes and offerings etc, is all unbiblical. The early church met in homes and had a meal together, no pomp and religious ritual and show as many have today.

It is like David when playing the two stringed instrument and praying with tears to God. Rather than David's stringed instrument, the liturgy provides the ambience and environment that promotes such suplication without other members interrupting one another.

No it is not like that at all.

read everyone of my post again to see why.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Your forgetting the members of the body of Christ are gathering not to preach to one another, they are gathering together whilst facing towards the altar symbolising the Holy of Holies where the Lord resides. It is all about worship and not a preaching seminary, lecture of sorts, but a gathering in worship.

wrong again, and again. Where do you get this stuff?.Oh i know, from your traditions and the history of the middle eastern church. Not from Gods order and set order as we see in scripture for all the churches of the saints.

The OT worship is not like the New testament worship. You say all are facing towards the ALTAR", symbolizing the Holy f Holies???? No, the veil of the temple was ripped from top to bottom and all believers noow have access into the holy place Christ our High priest has made this possible, we do not need a High priest of man to stand before us to enter in and we do not need a symbol of the Holy of Holies, please read,

"8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:"(Hebrews 9:8)

"19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;21 And having an high priest over the house of God;"(Hebrews 10:19,20)

and so,

"11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;"(Hebrews 10:11,12)

This meditative worship requires order, liturgy and silence and the prayers are inwardly in speech to the Holy Ghost whilst the members are all facing in unison towards the Holy of Holies where our chief priest resides. This chief priest is Jesus Christ for all are gathered in worship in his name including the priest who kneels hundreds of times before him as an elder who along with the body of Christ are offering their prayers and not interjecting or interrupting the service

Your order is not God's order In 1 Cor 14 God said through Paul,
let all things be done decently and in order" This order was as God was able to move and lead among them. It was a spiritual order in Christ. The word order means arrangement, and Christ works this as the head in the body Ephesians 4:15,16 etc etc etc.

and you use the expression that "all facing in unison towards the Holy of Holies". This is unscriptural for the NT church. and when you say Holy of Holies? are you referring to a little golden type box on an altar where the so called "host , or Eucharist" is placed? And when you say, "where our chief priest resides. This chief priest is Jesus Christ > Are you referring to the Eucharist again?. Jesus Christ is in every believers and they are all taught directly of God. They do not need a "pries" to go before them and to be the access point. All believers are a royal priesthood. there is not one man over all called a priest. The priesthood of the OT was changed Hebrews 7. You talk of the "priest" who kneels before Jesus, are you referring to the Priest wearing robes kneeling before the golden box where the "so called" body of Christ is put ?

and you say there is no interrupting of this man made service you speak of. This again is not scriptural and fights against the commands of God. Even when a man is speaking another can have something revealed to them and then the forst ( the one who is speaking) should give place to the other. Again you are just making things up and following man made traditions that make the word of God of no effect.

and im still waiting for proof from the early apostles until just before Constantine that you say they had man made buildings called "churches. The earliest record I showed you was way later and it was in a house.

 

[madera23]

No Christian has ever "gone to church", in the history of Christendom. The church is the body of Christ and members in particular.

The chuch meets in their home, is the biblical way.

and we should still gather together under Christ authority and in the word as we speak and live it, that is our authority.

We all need one another, every joint supplies. If a gathering meets in homes and all wait on the Lord and are able to edify one another using the gifts God gives, then we have wonderful fellowship and meetings in Christ.

you need to be part of this glorious church that Christ is building and if you are then find brothers and sisters who let the Word of Christ dwell in them richly and who are good stewards of the gifts and grace of God and who minister freely to one another and have a meal together and fellowship and pray.

meeting in homes or anywhere else since God is within is bogus.
Madera