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Authorised King James Version

Discussion in 'Bibliology & Hermeneutics' started by Thunderchild, Feb 7, 2002.

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  1. MatthewDiscipleofGod

    MatthewDiscipleofGod Senior Veteran

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    filosofer , thanks for pointing that out. I really should have thought of Luther, since I was raised Luthern and had to read about his whole life! Of course I was thinking more about english releases I guess and of the entire Bible, not just parts. Never heard of Beck though. I'll remember that one.

    LouisBooth, thanks for the good insight into some of the other translations. I have a nifty program called E-sword that's a free electronic Bible that allows you to pull up a verse and then easily see the same verse in many different translations. To bad some people have not given permission yet like NIV and Living Bible.
     
  2. Thunderchild

    Thunderchild Sheep in Wolf's clothing

    +1
    Non-Denom
    If God had been speaking German, and given that he was looking for two, ..... "Wo sind Ihr?" would have been the more likely question "Wo bist du" would only be directed to one person. Or should that be "euch" rather than "Ihr".... whatever, "Wo bist du" isn't the right translation.
     
  3. GreenEyedLady

    GreenEyedLady My little Dinky Doo

    +164
    Baptist
    Erusmus did not traslate but did print on a press.
    So sorry to burst your bubbles!
    I am gagging on the spam here!!!!!!!!!11*cough* *gasp*
    hehehe
    Thunder...I guess it depends on what type of german you are reffering to. I spent 3 years living in germany and I only know Baviarian.....not high german.
    Also...I guess you check that KJV translation with the originals...Hey...can i have a copy??? LOL
    :)
    GEL
     
  4. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "Erusmus did not traslate but did print on a press. "

    Source? I think you're wayyyyy off here lady.
     
  5. GreenEyedLady

    GreenEyedLady My little Dinky Doo

    +164
    Baptist
    I will have to look that up..its been awhile...give me some time. I know I read it. There is a debate however with the way he complied the TR however, he didn't write the TR..nor was he the only man who did.
    Like I said...give me some time....OK!
    PS....can we please not let our pride get in the way here...??
    GEL
     
  6. filosofer

    filosofer Senior Veteran

    +287
    Lutheran
    Yeah, man. That's the "street language." Where is you been? ;) :D
     
  7. edjones

    edjones Active Member

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    Desiderius Erasmus was born in 1466 and died in 1536 at the age of seventy. This was no mean feat during the days when the plagues, coupled with primeval medical practices, worked together to limit the average age of a man's life to approximately 35-40 years.
    Both of his parents fell victim to that same plague while Erasmus was just a lad. He and his brother were then placed in the care of an uncle who promptly sent them off to a monastery just to be rid of them. Thus Erasmus's destiny was sealed long before he could ever have a say in the matter.
    Young Erasmus became well known for his charm, urbanity and wit, and was in possession of an obviously above average intellect. He was later to choose to be an Augustinian on the sole attribute that they were known to have the finest of libraries.
    His behavior was somewhat bizarre by Augustinian standards. He refused to keep vigils, never hesitated to eat meat on Fridays, and though ordained, chose never to function as a priest. The Roman Church had captured his body, but quite apparently his mind and heart were still unfettered.
    He is known to history as one of the most prolific writers of all times.
    Erasmus was a constant and verbal opponent of the many excesses of his church. He berated the papacy, the priesthood and the over indulgences of the monks. He stated that the monks would not touch money, but that they were not so scrupulous concerning wine and women. He constantly attacked clerical concubinage and the cruelty with which the Roman Catholic Church dealt with so called "heretics." He is even credited with saving a man from the Inquisition.
    One of his many writings consisted of a tract entitled "Against the Barbarians" which was directed against the overt wickedness of the Roman Catholic Church.
    He was a constant critic of Pope Julius and the papal monarchy. He often compared the crusade leading Pope Julius to Julius Caesar. He is quoted as saying, "How truly is Julius playing the part of Julius." He also stated, "This monarchy of the Roman pontiff is the pest of Christendom." He advised the church to "get rid of the Roman See." When a scathing satire, in which Pope Julius was portrayed as going to Hell, written in anonymity was circulated, it was fairly common knowledge that its author was Erasmus.
    He was offered a bishopric in hopes that it would silence his criticism. He rejected the bribe flat.
    Erasmus published five editions of the New Testament in Greek. They were brought out successively in 1516, 1519, 1522, 1527 and 1535. His first two editions did not contain I John 5:7 although the reading had been found in many non-Greek texts dating back as early as 150 A.D. Erasmus desired to include the verse but knew the conflict that would rage if he did so without at least one Greek manuscript for authority. Following the publication of his second edition, which like his first consisted of both the Greek New Testament and his own Latin translation, he said that he would include I John 5:7 in his next edition if just one Greek manuscript could be found which contained it. Opponents of the reading today erringly charge that the two manuscripts found had been specially produced just to oblige Erasmus's request, but this charge has never been validated and was not held at the time of Erasmus's work.
    The Roman Catholic Church criticized his works for his refusal to use Jerome's Latin translation, a translation that he said was inaccurate. He opposed Jerome's translation in two vital areas.
    He detected that the Greek text had been corrupted as early as the fourth century. He knew that Jerome's translation had been based solely on the Alexandrian manuscript, Vaticanus, written itself early in the fourth century.
    He also differed with Jerome on the translation of certain passages which were vital to the claimed authority of the Roman Catholic Church.
    Jerome rendered Matthew 4:17 thus: "Do penance, for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand."
    Erasmus differed with: "Be penitent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
    Erasmus was also a staunch defender of both Mark 16:9-20 and John 8:1-12. Zeal which our modern day scholars cannot seem to find.
    Possibly Erasmus's greatest gift to mankind was his attitude toward the common man. In the rigidly "classed" society in which he lived, he was an indefatigable advocate of putting the Scripture in the hands of the common man. While Jerome's Latin had been translated at the bidding of the Roman hierarchy, Erasmus translated his Latin with the express purpose of putting it into the hands of the common people of his day. A practice that the Roman Catholic Church knew could be dangerous to its plan to control the masses.
    Erasmus is quoted as saying, "Do you think that the Scriptures are fit only for the perfumed?" "I venture to think that anyone who reads my translation at home will profit thereby." He boldly stated that he longed to see the Bible in the hands of "the farmer, the tailor, the traveler and the Turk." Later, to the astonishment of his upper classed colleagues, he added "the masons, the prostitutes and the pimps" to that declaration.
    Knowing his desire to see the Bible in the hands of God's common people, it seems not so surprising that God was to use his Greek text for the basis of the English Bible that was translated with the common man in mind, the King James Bible.
    It has been said that "Erasmus laid the egg that Luther hatched." There is probably far more truth to this statement than can be casually discerned. For the reformers were armed with Erasmus's Bible, his writings and his attitude of resistance to Roman Catholic intimidation. Of Luther he said, "I favor Luther as much as I can, even if my cause is everywhere linked with his." He wrote several letters on Luther's behalf, and wholeheartedly agreed with him that salvation was entirely by grace, not works.
    He refused pressure by his Roman Catholic superiors to denounce Luther as a heretic. If Erasmus had turned the power of his pen on Luther, it would undoubtedly have caused far more damage than the powerless threats of the pope and his imps were able to do. As it is, only his disagreement with Luther's doctrine of predestination ever prompted him to criticize the Reformer with pen and ink.
    Erasmus's greatest point of dissension with the Roman Church was over its doctrine of salvation through works and the tenets of the church.
    He taught that salvation was a personal matter between the individual and God and was by faith alone. Of the Roman system of salvation he complained, "Aristotle is so in vogue that there is scarcely time in the churches to interpret the gospel." And what was "the gospel" to which Erasmus referred? We will let him speak for himself.
    "Our hope is in the mercy of God and the merits of Christ." Of Jesus Christ he stated, "He ... nailed our sins to the cross, sealed our redemption with his blood. " He boldly stated that no rites of the Church were necessary for an individual's salvation. "The way to enter paradise," he said, "is the way of the penitent thief, say simply, Thy will be done. The world to me is crucified and I to the world."
    Concerning the most biblical sect of his time, the Anabaptists, he reserved a great deal of respect. He mentioned them as early as 1523 even though he himself was often called the "only Anabaptist of the 16th century." He stated that the Anabaptists that he was familiar with called themselves "Baptists." (Ironically, Erasmus was also the FIRST person to use the term "fundamental.")
    So we see that when Erasmus died on July 11, 1536, he had led a life that could hardly be construed to be an example of what could be considered a "good Catholic."
    But perhaps the greatest compliment, though veiled, that Erasmus's independent nature ever received came in 1559, twenty-three years after his death. That is when Pope Paul IV put Erasmus's writings on the "Index" of books, forbidden to be read by Roman Catholics.
     
  8. GreenEyedLady

    GreenEyedLady My little Dinky Doo

    +164
    Baptist
    WOW....hmmm where did you get that ED.....must be from the PILE OF HISTORY BOOKS that anti-KJV people are NOT reading!
    hmmmmm
    Ya see what i mean. This is a very frustrating debate!
    I went to the libary today....To get some REAL books....you know...the hisorical ones...instead of depending on biased websites for infomation.GEL
     
  9. filosofer

    filosofer Senior Veteran

    +287
    Lutheran
    Well, the real contest between Luther and Erasmus was on the issue of free will, of which predestination was a secondary topic.

    I'm glad to see you do that, because web sites are questionable at best. While the internet may be good for "instanteous" communications it is not known for reliability. Having done extended research for the past 30 years (20+ in theology), I find that many people are selective in their sources. And such study requires discernment.

    The internet has only added to the problem. When I compare what many web sites have regarding "church history" and "theology" with actual documents covering that topic/era, I find there is a lot of garbage out there. So discernment is even more essential.

    That's why much that ed had posted is rehashed secondary quotes of quotes, and most of it not reliable. The internet seems to lend credence because it appears to be so prominent, but in reality it only magnifies the inaccuracies.

    That's why when I teach at the Bible College I stress the need to sort through and evaluate what is out there. In fact, for some classesI will not allow them to use the internet. They have to dig around in documents, trace sources, identify discrepancies, evaluate discrepancies, and then think through what they have researched.
     
  10. edjones

    edjones Active Member

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    The Creed of Scholarship

    Otherwise known as the Alexandrian Creed!


    1. There is NO FINAL AUTHORITY but God.

    2. Since God is a Spirit, there is NO FINAL AUTHORITY that can be seen, heard, read, felt, or handled.

    3. Since all books are material, there is NO BOOK ON THIS EARTH THAT IS THE FINAL AND ABSOLUTE AUTHORITY on what is right and what is wrong: what constitutes truth and what constitutes error.

    4. There WAS a series of writings one time which, IF they had all been put into a BOOK as soon as they were written the first time, WOULD HAVE constituted an infallible and final authority by which to judge truth and error.

    5. However, this series of writings was lost, and the God who inspired them was UNABLE TO PRESERVE THEIR CONTENT through Bible-believing Christians at Antioch (Syria) where the first Bible teachers were Acts 13:1, and where the first missionary trip originated Acts 13:1-6, and where the word Christian originated Acts 11:26.

    6. So, God chose to ALMOST preserve them through Gnostics and philosophers fro Alexandra, Egypt, even though God called His Son OUT of Egypt Matt 2, Jacob OUT of Egypt Gen 49,
    Israel OUT of Egypt Exodus 15, and Joseph's bones OUT of Egypt Exodus 13.

    7. So, there are two streams of bibles.
    a. The most accurate
    Though, of course, there is NO FINAL AUTHORITY for determining truth and error.
    b. It is a matter of 'preference'
    These are the Egyptian translations from Alexandria, Egypt, that are "almost the originals,"
    although not quite.

    8. The most INACCURATE TRANSLATIONS were those that brought about the German Reformation
    (Luther, Zwingli, Boehler, Zinzendorf, Spener, etc.)

    9. But we can "tolerate" these, if those who believe in them will tolerate US. After all, since there is NO ABSOLUTE AND FINAL AUTHORITY that anyone can read, teach, preach, or handle. The whole thing is a matter of PREFERENCE. You may prefer what you prefer, and we will prefer what we prefer. Let us live in peace, and if we cannot agree on anything or everything, let us all agree on one thing: THERE IS NO FINAL, ABSOLUTE, WRITTEN AUTHORITY OF GOD ANYWHERE ON THIS EARTH.
     
  11. filosofer

    filosofer Senior Veteran

    +287
    Lutheran
    So, ed, where are your references for such claims?

    Are you claiming then that the Roman Catholic Church had the best translations? But didn't you earlier claim that the Roman Cathilic Church perverted the Scriptures?
     
  12. Jesusong

    Jesusong Veteran

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    I would like to quote from "The King James Defended" by Edward F. Hills (bold emphasis are mine)
    It seems kind of strange that out of all the Greek mss. that we have, this particular verse (1 John 5:7) is absent until the 15th century.
     
  13. GreenEyedLady

    GreenEyedLady My little Dinky Doo

    +164
    Baptist
    Would the bible make sense wiothout that verse??
    To me it looks like a trinity issue. IS there 3 that bear record in heaven??
    Those who oppose the trinity will not agree those tho are for the trinity I am sure agreed.

    When and where does it say that erusmus printed the Texus Recpetus? I cannot find anything in the libary about it.
    So far I have found that Erusmus wrote a New TEstament in 1516.
    There were 8 bible before those before the KJV was even finished.
    ???
     
  14. filosofer

    filosofer Senior Veteran

    +287
    Lutheran
    Ah, this raises the issue whether there is such a thing as Textus Receptus. Erasmus compiled the Greek text that became the basis for what has been referred to as the Textus Receptus. But of course, is there such a thing? Since no two manuscripts agree on every point, Textus Receptus becomes nothing more than a compilation of editors/translators choices (sounds a lot like what is called Textual Criticism today). And it should. The approach, textually, of the early translators (including the KJV) of the Bible is no different than the translators of today. They use the same methods, only make different choices with regard to manuscript choices.
     
  15. Jesusong

    Jesusong Veteran

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    Erasmas was the first to compile what is now known as the Textus Receptus (TR).Below is a quote from "The King James Version Defended" by Edward F. Hills:
    After Erasmus died, Robert Stephanus published four editions of the TR,
    After Stephanus, Theodore Beza published ten editions of the TR, followed by Bonaventure Elzevir,who pubished two editions, by which the phrase "Textus Receptus" made its first appearance in the following quote: "You have therefore the text now received by all (textum ab omnibus receptum) in which we give nothing changed or corrupt."

    From 1516 to 1633, what eventually became known as the Textus Receptus, was created. A total of twenty-one editions. Also, the KJV can be considered as an independent variety of the TR as quoted by Hills below: Bold emmphasis are mine
     
  16. Thunderchild

    Thunderchild Sheep in Wolf's clothing

    +1
    Non-Denom
    Green Eyed Lady> The originals for the King James translation are readily available. All one needs do is to look up blueletterbible.org, and by clicking the "c" button alongside the text, the Greek will appear for the verse. While the original autographs are no longer available, the AV did not use those texts.

    As stated, the translators altered the meaning of the texts they were using when they were translating. This has in fact been pointed out by EdJones.
     
  17. edjones

    edjones Active Member

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    ONLY A KING JAMES BIBLE warns you that men will CORRUPT the word of God (2 Cor. 2:17).
     
  18. filosofer

    filosofer Senior Veteran

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    Lutheran
    And why is it that you haven't quoted from the 1611 KJV?
     
  19. edjones

    edjones Active Member

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    [SHADOW=silver]ONLY THE KING JAMES BIBLE gives you a "mansion" in glory (John 14:2). [/SHADOW]
     
  20. Jesusong

    Jesusong Veteran

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    Pentecostal
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    Why settle for a mansion when my NIV promises me eternal life:
    :p :D
     
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