Australia Warns America: "Don't Let Them Take Your Guns!"

[Blayz]

...serious crime in America is at it lowest level since 1963.

Yet apparently, I guess we should all be packing when we step out of the house.

I would post a link...but alas, I have not qualified yet (what's up with that?).

Anyhow, look search on "US crime rate at lowest point in decades. Why America is safer now." at csmonitor.com

Then go looking for gun crime rate, and find it has been flat, or slightly increasing, for years.

But I agree with GR, guns are a prerequisite for living in the dystopian USA.

 

[Halossellar]

Walking and dry land.

So other than an attempt at humor, you offer no solutions. So we can put that agrument to bed.

Look at Nazi Germany.

http://ir.lawnet.fordham.edu/cgi/vi...#search="did nazi germny disarm its citizens"

Unfortunately for those who would like to link Hitler and the
National Socialists with gun control, the entire premise for such an
effort is false. German firearms legislation under Hitler, far from
banning private ownership, actually facilitated the keeping and
bearing of arms by German citizens by eliminating or ameliorating
restrictive laws which had been enacted by the government
preceding his: a left-center government which had contained a​

number of Jews.

Oops. Hitler would have been an NRA member.

So you oppose private gun ownership now because kids die in shootings, which simply cannot be tolerated, but you favor removing guns which will result in many people dying at the hands of armed criminals, and you're just fine with that? "The end justifies the means"?

You read things that I don't write. Far fewer people will die at the hands of armed criminals tomorrow (if guns are banned), compared to the innocents dying from guns today.

It seems as if you're either opposing firearm deaths or supporting them, as long as it reinforces your agenda---"People are dying in mass shootings, and this cannot be tolerated, therefore we must ban guns!", followed by "People will die from armed criminals if guns are banned, but that's okay, because the guns will be banned."
.

Ibid.

Either way, people are going to die.....and frankly, just between you and me, if I'm going to die, I'd prefer to take my chances with the means to defend myself, thank you very much. If you want to be face-to-face with a hopped-up criminal murderer holding a .357 magnum in one hand and a 14-inch stiletto in the other with nothing but the smile on your face and the goodness in your heart, bully for you. I'd prefer to be facing him with a 12-gauge shotgun loaded with .00 buck.

No, after a gun ban takes effect only a fraction of the people will die compared with how many die daily. If you have evidence otherwise...

 

[Halossellar]

14,930

I removed the bits from your reply that were obviously incorrect or conjecture. I'm curious as to how you determined the number above. I'd like to see the facts you used.

 

[Mr Dave]

We can see what's happening in the UK and Australia.

A smaller proportion of gun crime?

I'll stick to the UK thanks where extremely dangerous objects are only given to be people lawfully when they can show an ability to be in control, and where the Police can arrest those who attain firearms by non lawful means.

 

[Rusticus]

Yes, I have read that that sort of thing happens in the USA - and I always wondered why it does, and I'm always glad that I don't live in that kind of society.
/QUOTE]

Rapes, murders, and robberies happened in Australia last I checked.

It seems to me that you are recycling old posts. This was addressed in my post 22 (yes: 22. a looong time ago) as follows:


Originally Posted by Nekoda
By implication, this is like saying home break ins, rapes, murders and kidnapping do not happen in Australia - and if it does, it doesn't happen with firearms involved.
What I said was a reply to:
"In other words, if a criminal wants to rob you, torture and rape your wife, tie you up and kidnap your children, and he has a gun, and you don't because you obey the law, in Australia - you're stuffed."

My reply was:
"Yes, I have read that that sort of thing happens in the USA - and I always wondered why it does, and I'm always glad that I don't live in that kind of society."

Maybe in Australia things are more simple. If someone wants to rob your house, it's easier to do when no-one is home. As for torture and rape your wife: well the thought that something like that would happen has never crossed my mind. As for tying me up and kidnapping my children: not on the menu here. (All three happening at once by a guy with a gun, as suggested in the earlier post: not in a million years....)

May I remind you that I also said:
"By way of clarification: I have no interest in gun laws in the USA. However I felt compelled to point out obvious errors and misleading statements about Australian Gun laws as they were made and/or implied in the OP."

I have no interest to change any country's gun laws, or to interfere into anyone's internal affairs.
I do however insist on pointing out that the current gun laws in Australia are suitable for the way our society operates. And I do take this opportunity to state that the overwhelming majority of the population is either happy with the current laws, or they have no interest in them at all. The four main political parties in Australia all support the current laws.
__________________

 

[Glas Ridire]

http://ir.lawnet.fordham.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4029&context=flr&sei-redir=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt%26rct%3Dj%26q%3Ddid%2520nazi%2520germny%2520disarm%2520its%2520citizens%26source%3Dweb%26cd%3D4%26ved%3D0CEMQFjAD%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fir.lawnet.fordham.edu%252Fcgi%252Fviewcontent.cgi%253Farticle%253D4029%2526context%253Dflr%26ei%3DMGhIUPbTGsnKtAbr-4GQBA%26usg%3DAFQjCNFyeo2VE6G9n6HHtBxpXnT_WLzqFw#search=%22did%20nazi%20germny%20disarm%20its%20citizens%22

Harry Potter was arguably good fiction too, to bad the author was far too yellow in their journalism to pass for real legal scholarship.
​

Oops. Hitler would have been an NRA member.

You mean what a politician says near the beginning of their time in power ALWAYS reflects the policies they will uphold throughout? No politician especially Hitler would ever pull a "bait and switch". I think it is safe to say the German policies of 1933 looked a bit different than the policies of 1939 - end of war.

You read things that I don't write. Far fewer people will die at the hands of armed criminals tomorrow (if guns are banned), compared to the innocents dying from guns today.

If you write me a contract for 9/10ths of your current and future wealth, you will be better off than if you manage your own money. Right now I take responsibility for my own physical safety. I don't count on the police, but it could be argued that the police represent 1/10th of my safety from crime just by general deterrence. What are you offering citizens except the opportunity to give up 9/10ths of their current and future safety? The unsubstantiated promise that criminals will magically become pacifists? No thanks.

No, after a gun ban takes effect only a fraction of the people will die compared with how many die daily. If you have evidence otherwise...

You don't have any evidence to support your view. You could point to England again, but they have always been in an environment where gentry had access to state of the art weapons (they still do) and peasants were limited to bill hooks and pitchforks. Lets look at something closer to the historical realities of USA. . . Mexico. How is gun control working out in Mexico?



By the way, you cited me in two quotes that aren't mine. Are you trying to accuse me of having a sock puppet?

 

[Glas Ridire]

I removed the bits from your reply that were obviously incorrect or conjecture.

Now if I did the same, I could never quote you. Not that I think all replies need full quotes, but violent crime rates don't seem to be going up as gun control laws become more Constitutional. It appears you are the one doing most of the conjecture. We know that no spree shooting has occurred outside a gun free zone in the US . . . is it logical to conjecture that if we turned the country into a gun free zone no spree shootings would occur?

I'm curious as to how you determined the number above. I'd like to see the facts you used.

The same way you get your numbers. I took the murder rate in Mexico and adjusted it for the US population and divided by the number of cups of coffee I had had that morning. . . . or something like that.

 

[Blayz]

We know that no spree shooting has occurred outside a gun free zone in the US

Does that include Columbine? By which I mean, do you support open or concealed carry of teachers and students at school? is there a cutoff in terms of age?

 

[Glas Ridire]

Does that include Columbine? By which I mean, do you support open or concealed carry of teachers and students at school? is there a cutoff in terms of age?

Yes, Columbine was a gun free zone. Both Klebold and Harris would not be able to answer 12C and 12E in the negative on a 4473 even if they were of age & then there were the 1934 and 1968 gun control act violations . . . Cut off for age should drop to 18 from 21 for carry permits. (State) Universities should be prohibited from infringing on the 2A rights of students and faculty. I would like to see faculty of high school and lower, have the option to be armed at work & parents able to drop off and pick up their kids and attend school events without having to leave arms vulnerable to theft in their cars.

 

[Supreme]

Yes, Columbine was a gun free zone. Both Klebold and Harris would not be able to answer 12C and 12E in the negative on a 4473 even if they were of age & then there were the 1934 and 1968 gun control act violations . . . Cut off for age should drop to 18 from 21 for carry permits. (State) Universities should be prohibited from infringing on the 2A rights of students and faculty. I would like to see faculty of high school and lower, have the option to be armed at work & parents able to drop off and pick up their kids and attend school events without having to leave arms vulnerable to theft in their cars.

If I was a student in the States, I would personally opt for concealed carry. I would want to carry a firearm with me into school, because sadly, school shootings are by no means unheard of. I would like to feel safe, especially in the knowledge than other students are potentially carrying firearms.

 

[Glas Ridire]

If I was a student in the States, I would personally opt for concealed carry. I would want to carry a firearm with me into school, because sadly, school shootings are by no means unheard of. I would like to feel safe, especially in the knowledge than other students are potentially carrying firearms.

What would you opt to carry? Just a curiosity on my part. I carry a CZ RAMI in .40S&W when I am in settings where more concealment is helpful and a Ruger Alaskan in .454 Casull where I am less concerned about concealment or the weather allows more cover garments.

 

[David Brider]

The 2A isn't going anywhere...

Why not? Your constitution has been amended before. That's exactly what the second amendment is - an amendment to the constitution. What's stop the American people deciding - maybe not now, but in a couple of generations or so - deciding to do away with this "right" to bear arms?

 

[Glas Ridire]

Why not? Your constitution has been amended before. That's exactly what the second amendment is - an amendment to the constitution. What's stop the American people deciding - maybe not now, but in a couple of generations or so - deciding to do away with this "right" to bear arms?

Mostly because, when people are given a bit of power, they aren't keen on letting go of it. Give people a sovereign right to participate in their own defense and the defense of the State & the former strengthens the will to uphold the later. .. please refer to Sparta for verification. I learned history, and not from that bane of a movie "300" but when you give the right to keep and bear arms to the people, the people take an interest in cultivating what they've earned and keeping it. The souls of those lost for no good reason will weigh on the conscience of those who vainly and without success attempt to wrest from the people of the USA the right to defend themselves as our armed service oaths phrase it "I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same" and before you drag out that tired and too many times refuted ole argument (What will Fudd do against GIJoe {the version with a democrat mind control chip} when it is only Fudd against Joe and not some odd double digit millions of Fudds (some of which incidentally used to be joes & got good real world experience there) working in cooperation with the vast majority of Joes who don't support and see as traitor the Joe with the democrat mind control chip)? Really? Democrat Joes are some how going to lead a revolt against the US Constitution and not get cut down like Saddam's Special Republican Guard. . . . Okay. I liked the movie Howl's Moving Castle too, doesn't move it out of the fiction section.

 

[Matelot]

If I was a student in the States, I would personally opt for concealed carry. I would want to carry a firearm with me into school, because sadly, school shootings are by no means unheard of. I would like to feel safe, especially in the knowledge than other students are potentially carrying firearms.

I think you have bought in to the hysteria of gun crime in the US. It's not a wild west. I have never seen a shooting, been anywhere near a shooting, or ever seen a victim of a shooting. Some people aren't using the real risk potential to guide their thought processes. Like Mad Cow disease in the UK. How many more people died from lightning during the Mad Cow "epidemic" than the disease?

 

[Halossellar]

Harry Potter was arguably good fiction too, to bad the author was far too yellow in their journalism to pass for real legal scholarship. ​

You mean what a politician says near the beginning of their time in power ALWAYS reflects the policies they will uphold throughout? No politician especially Hitler would ever pull a "bait and switch". I think it is safe to say the German policies of 1933 looked a bit different than the policies of 1939 - end of war.

...You don't have any evidence to support your view. You could point to England again, but they have always been in an environment where gentry had access to state of the art weapons (they still do) and peasants were limited to bill hooks and pitchforks. Lets look at something closer to the historical realities of USA. . . Mexico. How is gun control working out in Mexico?

Is there gun control in Mexico? I have no idea. How is gun crime doing in the USA? I think that's what we are talking about.

I supply links to statistics or other fact to support my views. I refuted your Hitler post with a link that showed the Nazis didn't seize private guns. You didn't supply any link whatsover to refute mine and you attempt to smear the author of my link. Refusing to support your wild accusations with facts suggests you are wrong. It should be easy enough to prove that Hitler tried or did confiscate guns from German citizens. Why not start there? I actually don't know. I researched it a bit and found that it wasn't true. Maybe it is true, but until you show me the facts, I'll assume you were wrong.

I'm not interested in debating your opinion. I want to discuss facts that form your opinion. If you ever want to have a discussion where you support your views with evidence, I'll be around.

 

[wing2000]

Lets look at something closer to the historical realities of USA. . . Mexico. How is gun control working out in Mexico?

Seriously? The history and culture of Mexico is quite different from the USA.

...and of course, it is American drug users who are financing powerful drug cartels that are threatening to destroy Latin American societies. And it certainly doesn't help that the cartels can easily purchase arms at US gun shows.

 

[Glas Ridire]

Seriously? The history and culture of Mexico is quite different from the USA.

So why would we compare a completely different country, settled 500 years earlier, and think their gun control policies (which incidentally aren't working) are something to aspire to?

...and of course, it is American drug users who are financing powerful drug cartels that are threatening to destroy Latin American societies. And it certainly doesn't help that the cartels can easily purchase arms at US gun shows.

Why yes, I would like to see our attorney general stand trial for treason. Thank you. Who appointed him? I'm not saying Obama should be prosecuted too, but it should reflect on him . . .. badly. When you give a crony a job, from a position of power, you are kinda responsible. Were that not the case, all the Democrat anti-Halliburton stuff would be tripe right?

Do we hold people in power responsible for the criminals/ buddies they appoint or don't we? If we are inconsistent in whose buddies we shake our fists at, we are hypocrites.