Aussie Church Failing?

[padey]

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Her FAD is the notion that you can have a good and enjoyable life with God.

It’s clear your worldview is of an under realised eschatology, a classic dispensational premillennialism position.

Please grab your bible and underline these 7 words.

Luke 7:16

They were all filled with awe and praised God. "A great prophet has appeared among us," they said. "God has come to help his people."




I’d love to share the power of this Greek, but you don’t have the patience and I don’t have the time. (Lukan literature is fantastic; Luke uses some of the best grammatical Greek for his opening in Luke and Acts. All this mixed with some of the worst Greek, like Peters speech in Acts 2. He changes style to suit who ever is speaking, giving his readership insight into his characters)


God has come to help his people! And the good thing is, God still is, ‘come to help his people’! (English grammatical error intended)

So let's enjoy, being enjoyed by a God who has come to help his people!


padey

 

[artofwar]

I don't think the person was judging (condemning) at all, but judging righteous judgment (discerning). We are called to discern the spirits, and there are plenty of churches out there blaming the Holy Spirit for their empty-headed, feel-good, junk food.

Nope thats definately judging

I long for an army of preachers here in Australia who will teach us the whole counsel of God, not just those bits that tickle our ears. I don't care whether they jump and shout and make a show or not, as long as they can preach REAL meat instead of junk food.

We don't need preachers that can only polish the outside like the Pharisees, making a good outward show. We need preachers that have content, not just a lot of fake showmanship to cover up empty fluff.

maybe you are going to the wrong churches or maybe even still arnt teachable maybe?

I often find that there are preachers who take the shortcut of saying, "the spirit told me so..." as their way of excuse to justify their sermons. And when the Bible contradicts their statement, the make up some excuse saying that;

• we've twisted the scriptures
• the spirit works in weird ways that is beyond human understanding hence it doesn't fit in the minds of humans to be coherent
• Don't insult the spirit
• The spirit told me because I'm worthy unlike you...

If they had spent more time reading the word of God, which is a privelge to recieve for a God who reveals, then all these problems of unproven junk would have been removed.

I see that modern churches always want something "New" so they bring up something "New" just to excite people, yet arn't "Sound Doctrine"

It sounds to me that you are all theology and no spirit Icy no wonder you see problems whereever you go, Like paul says when he preachers to the gentiles he becomes a gentile etc etc a l ot of people try to reach different people different ways and for to generalise(yet again) and judge(yet again) those people is outright wrong. although there are some super spiros out there that use the spirit of God as an excuse you cant put all the people into that bag

 

[Icystwolf]

It’s clear your worldview is of an under realised eschatology, a classic dispensational premillennialism position.

Please grab your bible and underline these 7 words.

Luke 7:16

They were all filled with awe and praised God. "A great prophet has appeared among us," they said. "God has come to help his people."




I’d love to share the power of this Greek, but you don’t have the patience and I don’t have the time. (Lukan literature is fantastic; Luke uses some of the best grammatical Greek for his opening in Luke and Acts. All this mixed with some of the worst Greek, like Peters speech in Acts 2. He changes style to suit who ever is speaking, giving his readership insight into his characters)


God has come to help his people! And the good thing is, God still is, ‘come to help his people’! (English grammatical error intended)

So let's enjoy, being enjoyed by a God who has come to help his people!


padey

You've made one flaw and that flaw is the cornerstone of your argument.

Jesus came to bring us salvation that we enter eternal rest.

All you've done is added more responsibility on God's behalf to give people blessing in their lifestyle now, which is exactly what Koey is arguing about,

We are called to discern the spirits, and there are plenty of churches out there blaming the Holy Spirit for their empty-headed, feel-good, junk food.

and it's said nothing of the sort in context in the New Testament. Had you understood the basic picture of clear faith rather than blind faith in Christ, you would have known this.

As for art-of-war...I'm sure, one day you'll regret all the immature posts you made, and finally understand why I'm not answering those questions.

 

[padey]

You've made one flaw and that flaw is the cornerstone of your argument.

Jesus came to bring us salvation that we enter eternal rest.

All you've done is added more responsibility on God's behalf to give people blessing in their lifestyle now, which is exactly what Koey is arguing about,

For someone who scolds other people for not knowing the scriptures, do you have a scriptural reference for your last comment? Or is it based in dispensational premillennial Anglicanism?

 

[Icystwolf]

For someone who scolds other people for not knowing the scriptures, do you have a scriptural reference for your last comment?

yes

Or is it based in dispensational premillennial Anglicanism?

This is based on my own interpertation of the Bible...

I would have thought all churches agreed on that "Jesus came to bring us salvation and forgiveness of sins through his death and resurrection that we enter eternal rest."

I haven't been an Anglican for that long... so to your best interest, it's best not to argue about the Anglican church or the Uniting church, or whatever church isn't part of AOG.

 

[Koey]

Well, I'm sorry but I got lost in all your arguments above. I don't know where we were going there. I personally discern or judge (whichever you prefer) through both the Spirit and the Word of God, that all (not just some) of the churches in Australia need to repent of some pretty major flaws. I believe that no church is exempt from this urgent need.

 

[padey]

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yes

QUOTE]

So are you going to tell us? Or do you just talk about the bible and not reference it???

 

[Bevlina]

Nothing created by man is perfect. That includes the churches no matter what denomination. And that includes churches all over the world including Australia. It is up to the individual who attends the church to show what true christianity is.
We blossom where we are planted.
It is up to the indivudual in the church to show love, compassion, strength, mercy, understanding, forgiveness, kindness, faith and a myriad of other things which accompanies the word called love.
It is all very well for us to read our Bibles and speak the Word of God fluently. And to be able to quote texts. Even pagans could do that.
But, it is a different thing when action is shown. And ... it is for us to retire quietly to pray to Our God through His Son to help us through on our journey through life continuing to be a shining light to all others in the church. To set an example.
When people the world over can see that ... then we would have a wonderful church.
Unfortunately. We have selfrighteous, bigoted and Bible Bashing people as well as unforgiving people who can occupy the pews.
And to them ... we should blossom where we are planted ... and by example, show them the way a true Christian behaves.
The Love of our Perfect Father in Heaven shows in His creations. He created you ... and me. It is up to each of us then to show Father He created something to be proud of...

 

[Talie]

I often find that there are preachers who take the shortcut of saying, "the spirit told me so..."

this reminds me of something i read about Steve Camp (CCM artist) the other day. He said he was performing in concert one day - and some guy jumped up on the stage and said he had a "word from the lord" for Steve - Steve said, ok, i'll listen to you on one condition - that what you are about to tell me is totally backed up by the bible - in the end, the guy never shared the "message" he had received, Steve had convicted him and he admited "well, maybe it was just a thought I had"

 

[Blessed-one]

*MOD HAT ON*

If you see your posts missing, they've been moved into the theology forum under the title 'Judging': http://www.christianforums.com/t706505
i've also left a redirect in the AU forum.

This thread will be moderated closely from now on. Posts might get edited without notification.

*MOD HAT OFF*

 

[Talie]

hmm, it appears i've done the wrong thing - not quite sure what i did that was so wrong, or how what i said was so off topic (seemed perfectly on topic to me considering everyone was talking about judging eachother) certainly seemed a lot more on topic that a lot of other stuff i seen in various threads around here *sigh*

 

[Icystwolf]

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yes

QUOTE]

So are you going to tell us? Or do you just talk about the bible and not reference it???

Yes...

If you'd notice more on how I answer your questions you'd find that I don't answer what you imply, rather I answer what you've stated based on the expectation of that question, because what you imply is ambigious.

I'll expect you to word your questions and format your statement properley, so theres no ambiguity when I read it. You've done it in nearly all of your posts that you've used words that are more than 8 characters long.

I'll answer those questions after july 2nd.

 

[openup4christ]

i hope God dosent let the astrailian chruch fall im shure through prayer and time with God u guys / girls can pull of a huge reformation there.

 

[abigail.mcintyre]

You seem to have had a typical experience of those presenting for counselling after leaving large churches that have lost their sense of caring for their community as they have grown. The most common complaint is a lack of love in the church today. God says to love Him first with all our heart, mind soul and strength, and then to love others as ourselves. We cannot love others rightly unless we first learn to have a love relationship with God. God teaches us to love in intimate relationship with Him. He models it to us so we can model it to others. Not only is there a lack of relationship between people in the congregations today. Relationship with God is not being taught in all churches today, but rather relationship with the church structure and heirarchy. You can be anonymous in some churches today and some people like that. But that is not what the Body is about. It is more than a social club. It is a powerful spiritual entity when all the members are in their proper place, obeying God. It can change the world, one heart at a time. Abi

Sorry to be the fly in the ointment, but I don't think revival is happening and I'm with Koey, we have a low church attendance in this country. And it isn't improving by leaps and bounds. I'm not meaning to put down anyone's individual experience, if your church is growing then that is great, but I don't think those limited experiences are negating the backwards steps elsewhere.

I used to also go to a church who grew to 1500+, and was a youth leader of a 200+ youth group. It was built from a small church too. Problem is, a small church dynamic doesn't work with bigger numbers. People start falling through the cracks. Saying "I'm part of a 1500+ congregation church" eventually left me cynical, because no mention of the people who have left disgusted at the actions of the pastor or cliquiness of the congregation. When I visit there ocassionally now, there is ONE family in the entire church I know who isn't on the pastoral team that went there when I attended. To be honest, if the church had a shred of humility and honesty with the congregation, they would have 3000+ members. And the saddest part of it, those that leave most often also leave the church scene altogether. So saying numbers for growth is illusory. Not to say that this is always the case though.

Why is the Christian church still slipping in Australia? I see the reasons as fourfold:

1) Too materialistic - Australia suffers from every Western modern society's ailment, materialism. Many churches are becoming knitted in the the ethos and values of capitalist society. We see a preponderance of prosperity doctrine and self interested Christians in churches, and it's growing. Where is revival? Not in the US, Britain or Australia, traditionally all "Christian" nations, all rich, all without systemic religious persecution. It is in China, Bogota, and Africa where revival is occurring, the places with the poorest, most needy people, where much persecution is forced from above. Which leads to......

2) Lack of community - We all have cars, mobile phones, TV's, the Internet, our own houses, own jobs, all of which destroy community and create a new one in modern capitalism's likeness. Jesus said "Blessed are the poor in spirit", but the more I think about it, the more I wonder if the poor in general are blessed. The poor have community, the rich worry about getting more stuff. If there was a strong Mennonite or Amish community in Australia, I would drop uni and join it ASAP because the desire for community is so strong, and others have told me of the same feelings. Even non-Christians desire community. 99% of all pre-Vietnam war posters appealed to a sense of community or a threat to that community.

3) Too sold out to the world - Evangelism has mirrored politics in that now a fancy one-line slogan that seemingly demolishes all counter arguments can convert people. It does nothing of the sort, lines like "God said it, I believe it" is going to convert shallow people, and disenfranchise people who think it through even more from the church. The church is mirroring business in it's advertisement techniques and it's everyday practices. It's mirroring the media in that whatever gets the most ratings gets the coverage. It's sickening. But up til now, these problems have been Western church faults, not just problems with Australia. Until point 4.......

4) Apathy and Cynicism - These are virtually national traits. Churches try to force unimportant things, like church attendance and the taking up of collections, as though they are vital, and this is going to work against these almost institutionalised Australian national traits. Churches in Australia need to restructure their way of running the show back to a more traditional approach rather than authoritarian methods. If a church preaches the Word of God and strong community is present, I'm not going to be anywhere else, am I? Or I'm not going to hesitate to give more than a economically am able, am I? I have not been to a church in Australia that I've been able to honestly say it was better than "just OK". I'm not expecting a church to be perfect. I'm not expecting it to be large. I don't expect it to have programs. I don't expect the pastor to tell funny jokes from the pulpit. I want to belong to the community there and learn about the Word. And no church I've been to has been consistent in that.

Again, I'm not picking on any one individual or any one church here, and not every person or church in Australia is like that I'm sure. But this is a general view from someone who has "fallen through the cracks".

 

[Koey]

I agree wholeheartedly. I don't know what the causes are. Certainly when a country is rich it tends to neglect God. However, America seems to be an exception to that rule of thumb. Attendance in Australia is lucky to be 15%, whereas in America it is more than double that. So, I don't think anyone can claim we are having a national revival here yet, maybe a few revival pockets at best.

Another reason we have such low attendance may be that the churches in Australia are too divided, each with its own camp and 10 meter walls between. Too many churches even have their own separate Bible Colleges, not wanting their students to be "tainted" by the others I suppose.

 

[Ants]

I think that the general Christian population in Sydney is doing quite well... at least, churches I know of are focussing on planting new ones and really reaching the community where they are rather than expecting them to come to them.

The National Church Life Survey (something like that) reported last year that (I think) the general church in Sydney is growing at a rate above population growth. Which is a good thing.

Of course there are so many more things which are needing to be done to get the word to people and there are definitely churches struggling to do so. There's also apathy which could possibly be up there in Australian culture as the top sport! ha ha ha. so it's no wonder that people either don't care to talk to others about their faith or don't care to respond to the challenge of Jesus because they just couldn't be bothered. It's hard, it's not like it's ever easy.

In the end, there's lots to do, but it's not a reason to give up! Sow the seeds then water with prayer and real relationships. Leave the rest up to God and the movement of the Spirit in people's lives.

 

[LivingWorship]

Can I just add to that... church attendance is not a good indicator opf anything except people simply meeting together... I mean it's good to go, for heaven's sake I'm at church 3 times a week... I am involved in the music ministry quite heavily so I love what I do... but attendance doesn't mean a whole lot... I mean America might have more attendance on a percent basis but you also must consider this is a country with no religious freedom in public so the public view of Christianity isn't that crash hot... not that it's much better here but we haven't yet been told we can't pray or whatever

Point being... the Pente's here have about 80-90% attendance but that doesn't mean that we are in revival or anything... it just means that we are more committed IN GENERAL to church attendance.. not necessarily more committed to God... there's a difference... revival won't begin in the church anyway, it begins when we talk to people about Christ and the world just yearns to know, instead of pushing us away. O for the day Lord!!

 

[Icystwolf]

I agree wholeheartedly. I don't know what the causes are. Certainly when a country is rich it tends to neglect God. However, America seems to be an exception to that rule of thumb. Attendance in Australia is lucky to be 15%, whereas in America it is more than double that. So, I don't think anyone can claim we are having a national revival here yet, maybe a few revival pockets at best.

Another reason we have such low attendance may be that the churches in Australia are too divided, each with its own camp and 10 meter walls between. Too many churches even have their own separate Bible Colleges, not wanting their students to be "tainted" by the others I suppose.

Koey, did you watch compass...with status anxiety?

That was scary, how churches in america have incorporated their culture into belief.

At the end of the first series, Alain started comparing the church belief from England to America...boy was that scary.

I can already feel the anxiety in america just by watching that program...and I'm more at home with the English Christian....I'm sure all would feel the same.

Which is why, I'm recommending people to buy the DVD... It is so helpful...and after watching it, you'll realise how screwed up Anthony Robbins and Joyce Meyer is. They don't talk about it in the show, but it's a basic outline, using Christianity to sword swipe into the theory of motivated talks......

 

[Talie]

it's not just the "church" in america, i believe it's happening HERE too

 

[Icystwolf]

We'll I've been trained by God to be who I am, and not be ashamed of it....just as much as Adam and Eve were naked and not ashamed before they ate the forbidden fruit(not an apple....)