Aussie Church Failing?

[artofwar]

Hey all
New to this forum and so far it has been great, Well on this topic I understand many posts on how you feel. I goto Hillsong Church (formally CLC) in waterloo, now although there are some people that are clicky and there is a lot of "hero" worship of the pastors and musicions , I believe our leaders are doing a great job and out church is growing rapidly, yes there are things I dont agree with there, like any other church you will never be totally 100% fulfilled in any church, and of course I always search my heart to see if it is right and biblical in what i agree or disagree with my church, although it seems there are churches out there that are dying I believe there are many churches that are prospering, also a lot of people(not all) like smaller churches than large ones as they get "noticed " more at those churches and thats how they get their needs met which I dont believe is right, I know this as I was oe of those people.

 

[LivingWorship]

although it seems there are churches out there that are dying I believe there are many churches that are prospering, also a lot of people(not all) like smaller churches than large ones as they get "noticed " more at those churches and thats how they get their needs met which I dont believe is right, I know this as I was oe of those people.

OK I think I know what you mean by this but this comment is almost offensive... WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO IMPLY HERE? You have to also accept that people go to big churches for equally ridiculous reasons... freedom... comfort... facilities... HELLO! What about being where God is?? God is everywhere right? And where two or three gather in His name He is there... Doesn't the same God work in a church big or small? Big doesn't mean RIGHT anymore small doesn't mean WRONG or CULT. Same church, same God. Wherever we are the bottom line is that we belong to a fellowship that preaches Christ.

 

[artofwar]

Living worship as I stated in my post I know a lot of people who go to smaller churches for the reasons I stated above and yes people go to Larger churches for the reasons you stated above, but if a church is going well and prospering wouldnt it grow in numbers as well??? I never said smaller churches are wrong and large churches are right dont know where you got that from,im just looking at the heart of it thats all , yes God is everywhere but I think some people use that as a cop out not to go to church at all

 

[Koey]

...people go to big churches for equally ridiculous reasons... freedom... comfort... facilities... HELLO!... Doesn't the same God work in a church big or small?...bottom line is that we belong to a fellowship that preaches Christ.

You guys have brought up some good points. I believe that large and small churches are equally important. The big key is health.

• LARGE CHURCHES have majesty, power, programs
• SMALL CHURCHES have intimacy, personal healing, leadership development

On that last point, some may ask are not large churches better for leadership development? No, large churches teach followership. The youth group is told, "Get on the bus. We're going to such and such place." In a small church, the youth group will have an advisor who will say, "Okay, if you guys want some youth activities, you will be brainstorming for ideas and organizing it. I'm here to help." Most church leaders came from a small church originally, because that's where they learned leadership.

 

[artofwar]

Good post Koey a very interesting answer

 

[LivingWorship]

On that last point, some may ask are not large churches better for leadership development? No, large churches teach followership. The youth group is told, "Get on the bus. We're going to such and such place." In a small church, the youth group will have an advisor who will say, "Okay, if you guys want some youth activities, you will be brainstorming for ideas and organizing it. I'm here to help." Most church leaders came from a small church originally, because that's where they learned leadership.

You hit the nail on the head buddy... while the big church has a lot going for it, it's USUALLY - not always but usually - the little churches that grow individuals as leaders... they are more easily and seamlessly drafted into leadership roles, they are usually given greater autonomy because the church is small and there are often more obstacles because a church great in number is more adept at handling such obstacles, because there are more people working alongside you... in a small church it's very easy to feel alone but it's here where you get the breakthrough as an individual becauseGOD IS WITH YOU and twhen you realist that, no human support even comes close to the support you get when you work hand in hand with God.

 

[Icystwolf]

Not at all, healthy organisms that have not reached their capacity grow. To continue with this analogy you must consider whether or not christian churches in Australia have reached their fullest potential. I'm inclined to say they have, and I cannot forsee the situation "improving" to any great effect because the social climate just does not exist anymore.

If you hath read the Bible, you would know that churches are reaching their fullest potential by the will of God, that has been predestined to be that way!

 

[Icystwolf]

I personally think that if a church is large, it needs to split. Of all the suggestions of leadership and power...etc....

I think they are valid points. I was in a large church of CPC, I went no where...now I'm in unichurch, which is it'self huge, but they've split up into smaller services, and since then I've been climbing up the ladder really fast.

It's really hard to voice your opinion if youre in a large church, if its a mistake, then more likely it'd take several weeks.

We've had arguements that Hillsong isn't teaching meaty stuff...even till now, they haven't done anything... some hillsingers feel it, when I start drilling into the Bible with other evangelicals some really deep issues, that some Hillsingers just arn't keeping up. For example the issue with smoking, is it right for a Christian to smoke...etc.... and the answer is, a Christian can smoke provided it doesn't affect other Christians Faith.

Fortunately we do try to pick them up after falling behind, but then again.. the churhc isn't too interested in them...which isn't my problem.

 

[padey]

My church and the churches that my firends go to are growing.

On friday night i went to a pizza joint that is in an old anglican church. So go figure....

We've had arguements that Hillsong isn't teaching meaty stuff...even till now, they haven't done anything... some hillsingers feel it, when I start drilling into the Bible with other evangelicals some really deep issues, that some Hillsingers just arn't keeping up. For example the issue with smoking, is it right for a Christian to smoke...etc.... and the answer is, a Christian can smoke provided it doesn't affect other Christians Faith.

Fortunately we do try to pick them up after falling behind, but then again.. the churhc isn't too interested in them...which isn't my problem.

You've yet to 'drill into the bible', only generalisations. Never any specifics or any sign of a redemptive hermeneutic. We're all still waiting.

 

[Icystwolf]

My church and the churches that my firends go to are growing.

And? whats your point?

On friday night i went to a pizza joint that is in an old anglican church. So go figure....

No, I don't know what your talking about...

You've yet to 'drill into the bible', only generalisations. Never any specifics or any sign of a redemptive hermeneutic. We're all still waiting.

Waiting for what? In the formal debate you failed, thats right FAILED, to give me the specifics of what Hillsong bases it's belief on. You pointed to AOG, which is the common point between a whole series of churches yet not Hillsong.

What am I suppose to argue on, if I don't haven anything on my hands?

None of your points are proven, neither are art of war. Where does it say in the Bible that Homosexuality is a choice?

And whether Homosexuality is a choice or not , it doesn't change the doctrine of sin at all. I've discussed this with heaps of people, and they've all realised they've mis-interperted the scriptures, because they believed what they were told....

If you read my post, I said we "Had" a study on "Smoking". This is a while back, if you go search the threads you'd find it...

As far as I know, you didn't bring any scripture in to re-enforce your point that homosexuality is a choice. All you did was bring insult to another denomination, which is against forum rules...and hence that thread was shut down....

Thanks Padey, you are such a nice Christian to be so mature!

 

[Talie]

you know, something came to mind during reading this thread - people talk about how some churches are large and growing heaps - and then there's mention of churches needing to be "healthy"

Just wanted to point something out - in today's society, people are growing a LOT - but you know what? they're growing FAT - our society is such that this is becoming the norm - and I think this issues applies to churches, as well as our own individual bodies

Growth doesn't mean that a church is doing the right thing - sure, some churches MAY have gotten big by being healthy - but I'm sure there are many that are big simply because they've fed themselves on all the "fast food" that society offers today.

 

[Talie]

oh - and please - could the Hillsong arguments possibly be taken back to the hillsong thread?

 

[Icystwolf]

oh - and please - could the Hillsong arguments possibly be taken back to the hillsong thread?

No probs...

 

[Koey]

...some churches are large and growing heaps...people are growing a LOT - but you know what? they're growing FAT...Growth doesn't mean that a church is doing the right thing...many that are big simply because they've fed themselves on all the "fast food" that society offers today.

I agree wholeheartedly. I spoke to a leader of one church who was bragging that they must be doing something right, otherwise God would not be causing them to grow so much. God gets the blame for a lot of things. Weeds grow fast too, but who wants weeds in their garden? Not me.

Spiritual junk food? There's a lot of that going around too.

 

[Icystwolf]

I agree wholeheartedly. I spoke to a leader of one church who was bragging that they must be doing something right, otherwise God would not be causing them to grow so much. God gets the blame for a lot of things. Weeds grow fast too, but who wants weeds in their garden?

Believe me, as an orchid hobbist and a greenthumb, weeds practically grow long and extensive roots which literally kill the orchid even after you kill the weed.

Christians that go to a large large church, often dumb down, and when that church falls, they won't be able to adapt to other churches because they would have realised they're so far behind in the understanding of the scriptures.

Not me.

Spiritual junk food? There's a lot of that going around too.

Oh you mean FADS right?

Yeh heaps of FADS these days, inparticular Joyce Meyer. Her FAD is the notion that you can have a good and enjoyable life with God. Almost like Anthony Robbins except with the Bible for her to twist around and reap that little bit extra.

 

[artofwar]

Christians that go to a large large church, often dumb down, and when that church falls, they won't be able to adapt to other churches because they would have realised they're so far behind in the understanding of the scriptures.

Geez i dont know about anyone else but that sounds like judging to me

Her FAD is the notion that you can have a good and enjoyable life with God

so you think you cant enjoy God????? and an enjoyable lifestyle with him?

 

[Icystwolf]

so you think you cant enjoy God?????

No, I don't think that nor is it reflected in my post

and an enjoyable lifestyle with him?

enjoyable lifestyle with God. I think this is where Padey should step in...he specifically mentioned this in another post.

 

[artofwar]

well actually Icy that is exactly what you reflected in your post that the FAd is that you can have a good and enjoyable life with God> you are calling this a fad? does this mean you can only have a miserable existence with God???

 

[Koey]

Geez i dont know about anyone else but that sounds like judging to me

so you think you cant enjoy God????? and an enjoyable lifestyle with him?

I don't think the person was judging (condemning) at all, but judging righteous judgment (discerning). We are called to discern the spirits, and there are plenty of churches out there blaming the Holy Spirit for their empty-headed, feel-good, junk food.

The person was also NOT saying that a Christian cannot enjoy life at all. However, the feel-good pablum that is often passed off as preaching these days only gives one side of a two-sided picture. Even 2 Timothy 4:3 talks about this imbalance: "For the time is coming when people will not put up with sound doctrine, but having itching ears, they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own desires"

I long for an army of preachers here in Australia who will teach us the whole counsel of God, not just those bits that tickle our ears. I don't care whether they jump and shout and make a show or not, as long as they can preach REAL meat instead of junk food.

We don't need preachers that can only polish the outside like the Pharisees, making a good outward show. We need preachers that have content, not just a lot of fake showmanship to cover up empty fluff.

 

[Icystwolf]

I don't think the person was judging (condemning) at all, but judging righteous judgment (discerning). We are called to discern the spirits, and there are plenty of churches out there blaming the Holy Spirit for their empty-headed, feel-good, junk food.

The person was also NOT saying that a Christian cannot enjoy life at all. However, the feel-good pablum that is often passed off as preaching these days only gives one side of a two-sided picture. Even 2 Timothy 4:3 talks about this imbalance: "For the time is coming when people will not put up with sound doctrine, but having itching ears, they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own desires"

Thank you Koey, it's nice to know that there are Christians in this forum that can understand!

Sound doctrine is the hardest thing to hear, when you read the Bible don't expect to use the Bible to condem others or support your desires. It's more often used in changing people to live the way and life with God.

I long for an army of preachers here in Australia who will teach us the whole counsel of God, not just those bits that tickle our ears. I don't care whether they jump and shout and make a show or not, as long as they can preach REAL meat instead of junk food.

We don't need preachers that can only polish the outside like the Pharisees, making a good outward show. We need preachers that have content, not just a lot of fake showmanship to cover up empty fluff.

I often find that there are preachers who take the shortcut of saying, "the spirit told me so..." as their way of excuse to justify their sermons. And when the Bible contradicts their statement, the make up some excuse saying that;

• we've twisted the scriptures
• the spirit works in weird ways that is beyond human understanding hence it doesn't fit in the minds of humans to be coherent
• Don't insult the spirit
• The spirit told me because I'm worthy unlike you...

If they had spent more time reading the word of God, which is a privelge to recieve for a God who reveals, then all these problems of unproven junk would have been removed.

I see that modern churches always want something "New" so they bring up something "New" just to excite people, yet arn't "Sound Doctrine"

Koey, you have my full support!