Aussie Church Failing?

[shout2thelord]

Not at all, healthy organisms that have not reached their capacity grow. To continue with this analogy you must consider whether or not christian churches in Australia have reached their fullest potential. I'm inclined to say they have, and I cannot forsee the situation "improving" to any great effect because the social climate just does not exist anymore.

I dont think they have for example hillsong has doubled in the last 5 yrs and is developing more and more ways to get the church to reach into the community through things like mercy ministries. I dont know to much about the other churches other than they seem to be growing and people seem excited about church and really in love with God and i think if you have that then you have healthy food feeding and organism the church and helping it to grow. there are always higher hights we can reach for God. I think its quite exciting to see a change in the way things have been in aus and to see the church start to grow, but in the Uk were still a long way off that

 

[Wolflily]

Excellent posts everyone!

I believe Koey's hit on the biggest nerve as far as the entire Western civilization is concerned - apathy and materialism are so rampant, even in our churches. I'm a bit wary of churches that preach a "prosperity" kind of faith - it goes against everything Jesus taught and lived. Jesus' life goes against just about everything the greedy and selfish Western mentality stands for and it's extremely difficult for people who are comfortable to really understand God's love for and commission to help those in extreme need. Apathy is one of Satan's greatest weapons against humanity - believers and unbelievers alike. If Satan can keep us comfortable and worried about our own lifestyles and wants and supposed needs, we will be pretty much ineffective for Christ.

Does that mean every Christian should sell everything they own and become missionaries or ministers? Not at all. But I do believe we must examine our lives and our hearts to see if we're really living for God daily; if He is in control of all of our decisions; if we trust Him to really provide for us or do we assume we know what we "need" and spend a lot of money on a lot of STUFF we can certainly do without. We are getting closer and closer to Jesus' return - are we ready for the Bridegroom with oil lamps full or are we sleeping on the job with our lamps dark?

My biggest prayer for Christians around the world is to get real with God and be real in our service to Him, for His people. Seriously, if you turn off your tv for a month you will see how much more time you have to spend with the Lord and serve Him. You will also see how strongly the world affects your thinking once you aren't exposed to media overkill encouraging you to want everything you see and spend everything you can to get it.

Only the Holy Spirit can bring revival; but the Bible says He can be resisted and I believe most Christians put the brakes on the Spirit's influence when He begins to ask them to sacrifice for God. Sacrifice money, time, stuff. Much of our generation is like the rich young ruler who walked away from Jesus sad because he was wealthy and didn't want to give up his STUFF to follow Him. We would do well to pay attention to Scripture that exhorts us to be ready to do what God asks, nomatter how difficult or inconvenient. When our hearts are willing and ready and full of the love of God, then the Spirit can move within us in power and accomplish mighty things!

Pray for guidance, brothers and sisters! Pray for courage and strength to do the things and go to the places and serve the people He exhorts you to. Pray, pray, pray!!

 

[Injured Soldier]

Interesting posts everyone.

Personally, I'm not much in for this movement of going all out to attract newcomers into the church. If you treat everyone who walks through the doors, newcomer and oldest member alike, as Jesus wants you to, then that will be a healthy church and people will want to be there. But I haven't walked into a church in Australia where I've felt welcome and I belong, whether a big church like Hills or a small church like the one I currently go to, so there's a long way to go. I'm not saying no one loves God, many people in churches around the country do. But that doesn't automatically mean that they treat their fellow Christians right.

Shout, you know how I feel about Hills church, many people there are great people, but there are just as many people who left that are disappointed with the shallowness and difference between image portrayed and reality there. With a church net cast that wide, a lot of people can fall through the cracks. Just because a place grows does not mean it is healthy. With the right advertising, hooks, and image, most people could make just as many people turn up to a sleazy nightclub, but that doesn't automatically make the place healthy.

I agree with wolflily, praying is the key.

 

[Alessandra]

I'd also attribute the decline in family values to it.

 

[-Kyriaki-]

I'd attribute it to a lot of things personally. but we've lost track of how much God loves us as well, which I think is part of it.
my church is growing rapidly, which is great. not like hillsong or the big AOG churches, but we don't see size as a sign of a good church so we don't mind. we have 70odd people a week, and considering that we meet in a community hall that's pretty good lol.
yes, australia's declining a lot in church attendance but remember that the days when everyone went to church are gone, church attendance will rise and God will bring revival, but in the meantime yeah, churches are going the way they are. God always cleans house before He brings revival though, and I think that's happening a lot in many different denominations (look at all the covered up things that are coming out at the moment) so we'll see.
i think I rambled a bit here. sorry.
great posts everyone btw.

 

[LivingWorship]

I dont think they have for example hillsong has doubled in the last 5 yrs and is developing more and more ways to get the church to reach into the community through things like mercy ministries. I dont know to much about the other churches other than they seem to be growing and people seem excited about church and really in love with God and i think if you have that then you have healthy food feeding and organism the church and helping it to grow. there are always higher hights we can reach for God. I think its quite exciting to see a change in the way things have been in aus and to see the church start to grow, but in the Uk were still a long way off that

Hello Shout!

You are very right in what you're saying, the Hills guys have started church planting etc... but I have one beef with their church planting style... I live in Sydney, my church is about 15 minutes up the road from Hills and is AOG, like Hillsong. There is one other AOG (of sorts anyhow) church in the Parramatta region. Now I would suggest if Hillsong was interested in promoting the local church, they being so astronomically huge would help out the little churches, AOG if nothing else. But do you know what? There are 2 AOG churches in Parramatta... but what does Hillsong do? They plant a Hillsong Mays Hill (2 minutes from Parramatta) church and pour all their energy in our region into that church, not into the ones already existing. And Parramatta's not the first (or last) place in Sydney where this is going on.

Without wanting to sound patronising, don't think that Hillsonfg has made the situation really good here... there can be no doubting their encouraging influence to PEOPLE, but in respect to other CHURCHES, they are no help. Just remember that while healthy organisms feed and grow, they can also starve every other healthy organism and leave a once healthy creature withering and dying. This hasn't quite happened but if the current trend continues then we may not have much choice, and so in order to survive, some of our actions may seem like we're competing with other churches and to me that's a sad day for the church. And it makes me sorry to tell you that, because there are genuine Godly people there. But I just wonder where the leaders are taking the place. God forgive me if I have offended. Peace and love my bretheren.

 

[Koey]

I'm not impressed by big if it's not healthy and if people are not being fed quality.

 

[shout2thelord]

Hey living worship its ok im not offended i can understand how it must feel and its not really something i know about how it affects other churches and thats an important part of being a christian how you work with the other churches, i guess thats because no church is perfect and well they all have areas that need changing. It would be really great if hillsong did work with the other churches in the area and support them.
I respect what you say because it come from a heart that desires to see the church built which is good and its not like u seem angry at hillsong in any way which is good.

 

[Koey]

Yes, I respect Brian for what he has done at Hillsong. It takes strong leadership and abiding faith to build what he has done. I also respect him highly for doing the tough thing and putting his own father out of the church because of immorality. I do find his preaching to be somewhat empty for my personal tastes. But, hey, we are all different.

 

[LivingWorship]

Cheers Shout! Thank you for trying to understand... when I say things like that, I cringe because I know that Hills are only another part of the greater body of Christ, and we need to love them and all that... but I honestly ask whether they view us in the same way. But it's not to downcry them, as I said they are brothers and, largely due to their size and influence, are able to do amazing things in our community like Emerge Christian Business Network, Mercy Ministries and HillsCare.

I'll be honest with you Shout, I was very angry for a while there, I am the worship leader at my youth ministry and it used to really tick me off how we'd be scraping the barrel to get 20 at a youth meeting, and you know, ring up person after person, send email on email just to get a few folk to Crossfire (our youth). Invariably some weeks, we would be stuck with just 10 people or so, and there was a particualr bunch who were actually very "committed" to our church, who for several weeks were absent, and were together! Then on the Sunday morning when those absent were found, there were two places they would be: at some party, or at Hillsong. And it used to infuriate me how Hillsong has got such a huge church, and yet is "pinching" our flock. Then God had to deal with me! I mean it still upsets me to a degree but I have learnt to be patient and know that Hillsong is the best place they can be if they are not at youth or church, and that can't be too bad a thing in the long run, ey? May God bless you and your ministry!

 

[LivingWorship]

Sorry the dreaded double post... slow network here!!

 

[shout2thelord]

yeh we dont want churches to grow simply by people moving from one to another which seems to happen a lot now.
One thing i noticed about hillsong leadership college is if u live in sydney your not allowed to change your church to hillsong without your pastors permission. But in a way i guess its hard to turn people away when they start going to hillsong because they came from a different church.
I dont really know what the solution would be.
Like at the conference they talked about people bringing their friends to hillsong to get them saved and then when they were saved taking them back to their own churches. and they said that they shouldnt do that and they should have confidence in their own church.
But i cant really comment on the situation your in because i dont know how things are cos i was onyl their for one summer and it can be hard when ur in a smaller church. And especially trying to get youth to church. for hillsong its easy because they have a large team of people working on it. but like at pur church weve had to work hard to get the youth to stay.
Have u talked to hillsong about this problem?

I do think the teaching at hillsong isnt always so deep but it works for me personally as it gets to the point and the holy spirit does the rest. but i know it may not be the best way for everyone. but sometimes sermons go into all this theolically deep stuff and if they use acetates i take one look and work out what the main point is then switch off. or if their speaking i can usually do the same - i think its cos i have really bad focus

 

[LivingWorship]

I think that's just it Shout, loads of Christians don't have the confidence in their own church... and I'm often one! My church is loaded with old people. We have an old building. We have an old pastor. We sing many old songs(that in itself i can handle), with a newbie (usually a Hillsong!) or 2 each service. The problem is that with our church, the whole style of the church is very geared toward the older generation, with little in it for the youth, save for Saturday nights. While our youth pastor believes heaps in us, the main man sees us as only a subculture and CONSTANTLY blasts the youth in general, as well as really severe warnings to us to not do this, not do that. It's not the most comfortable environment to bring a non-Christian into... and while it seems well intentioned, try telling that to an unchurched youth! So many of them don't want to come for that reason! And then the old pastor gets up and blasts modern music and all the old fogies in the church cry out YES and AMEN, not considering how it affects the young people who just want to praise the Lord, and admittedly love the new music - well some anyway!

So in fairness to the big churches it's not just them who are stealing our flocks... we are sending them packing in some ways, which is a real tragedy.

 

[LivingWorship]

O um haven't really talked to Hills... last time I did about any thing to do with our church and all, it was really cold and they were unhelpful, save for one lady bless her. We needed a sound guy, and she really tried to help. But then those guys who do sound she recommended were not the least bit willing to help another church. Wonderful. Anyhow God helped us out with two brilliant young men from Hills... but it's just sad that people aren't willing to aid the BODY of Christ if it involves stepping outside the four walls of their home church. And hey, many a church are like that. Ours included to an extent. It doesn't have to be like that. God help us!!

 

[Mustaphile]

I miss my home group. It was small, but it was intimate.

 

[shout2thelord]

O um haven't really talked to Hills... last time I did about any thing to do with our church and all, it was really cold and they were unhelpful, save for one lady bless her. We needed a sound guy, and she really tried to help. But then those guys who do sound she recommended were not the least bit willing to help another church. Wonderful. Anyhow God helped us out with two brilliant young men from Hills... but it's just sad that people aren't willing to aid the BODY of Christ if it involves stepping outside the four walls of their home church. And hey, many a church are like that. Ours included to an extent. It doesn't have to be like that. God help us!!

Yeh i love the chances ive had to work with other churches. like a church in a town near by had a visiting speaker so i went withh some others to do sunday school for the day so the childrens workers could stay in and listen to the speaker and our worship team is always helping out at other churches. But saying that its only just starting to change and there had been trouble between the churches for a long time.

 

[Jaegang72]

hey LW, I really get the sense of where you are coming from man. It is tough because people like to go to a nice place, nice music and lighting and really good praise music sessions.

I believe I went to your church twice when i first came to parramatta.

So you guys have youth group on saturday? Do you guys have cell group as well during the week?

Although it is nice and cool to have a good band etc, the most crucial thing for getting more youth into fellowship are like so in my opinion. Here are just some ideas:

1) Have a youth pastor or leader in charge. Nice guy, really welcoming and genuine person.

2) Need to have cell groups of size 10-20 which meet once during the week in someone's house. In the cell group, the need to have

a) bible study - sharing and exchanging ideas under leadership of cell leader. Discussion about issues important to the youth and how it can be related to the bible.. you know like bgr relationship, how to behave as a man, work issues etc.

b) good fellowship. So ppl encouraged to bring food from home or like go out for pizza afterwards. Set times for going out to eat during the week, watch movie etc to do as a cell group.

c) prayer. Ya, you guys can pray in the cell group and then an idea would be to pair ppl up in twos to pray for each other at the prayer meeting and outside. Just something simple like sending each other prayer request thru email. Dont have to meet another time .

3) Once you got the cell group thing happening and it's gelling together. You can invite some of your friends to the cell group.

4) Your youth group should be acknowledged and integrated into the service.. Things like ushering, special praise presentations, sketches etc. Talk to your pastor about it and please put this in the newsletter!

5) You are in the midst of a trial. Another church popping next to you, lack of attendance, no modern flashy thing on your side to give you a lift... You dont really have much. I encourage you however to start with earnest prayer, followed by extending warm loving fellowship. Along with healthy bible study, these 3 will form the cornerstone for turning things around.


I pray that God's will be done through you.

cheerio

dave

 

[marduke]

i agree 100% with that last post dave. when my church had a youth pastor our youth group was a constant 20-30 people everyweek, now since he has left it has crumbled to 2-3 (if that).
we have a youth home group/cell group going at the moment, but that is just as bad. (2-3 regulars) but we are still praying.

the main reason i feel we dont have a strong regular attendance is because we arent in a fixed location. we are currently holding our service in a pub.. lol its not as bad as you may think though, it is very modern, and we have the bar covered before the service.. our main problem is that they might have a wedding on a sunday morning and that leaves us out.. and also the venue is only big enough to hold 100 people.
but next month we are moving into a school hall which seats 200people, and has everything we need. so we are expecting some growth when that happens.

 

[LivingWorship]

Thanks Dave for your advice, we have done a few things you have mentioned. FOr starters, there are two midweek cell groups which started this year, and there are already great things happening there.

We have a youth pastor but he's really old (ok not REALLY old but is still about 57!) and a little out of touch with the youth of today, new music etc. Just last week we had the GOD SQUAD join us and we had a great ime, but he wanted to lead the praise and worship (which I let him, he's my leader after all!) and do all 60's pentecostal songs! FOR YOUTH!! I protested but he dug his heels in.. anyhow we came to a compromise but it was crazy... what do youth have to do with 60's happy clappy music??? Anyhow... enough whinging...

Youth integration... hmm now that's a great idea... we have a spot in the newsletter but the main senior pastor never announces our stuff, and we hardly are allowed to do that sort of a thing... as I said he's not our biggest support right now, not really sure why... but maybe we can petition prayerfully and see that one changed... hmm great idea mate!!

What's your second name... I may know you... my name is Andrew, if you came you might have seen me on bass... anyhow thanks for your advice and prayer... greatly appreciated... who knows, maybe we'll run into each other around town. What church are you attending now?

 

[LivingWorship]

I should point out that while we've struggled to find our place within our church, we have really been blessed in the times we've had together on Saturdays, and more recently with cell groups. Things aren't all bad, but the big picture at the moment appears to have stalled and we're just praying it changes! Glory to God for trials... big-time character refinement!