• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Attn: Muslims

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by Chris†opher Paul, Jul 31, 2002.

  1. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    Please consider and address this argument:

    Muslims (and rarely some Christians) apparently think that Jesus isn't God, but rather, a prophet or "good" moral teacher, etc.

    This is the one thing that Jesus can not be, since He said that He was God.  If he wasn't God, then he would either be a liar, lunatic, or a devil, for saying that He was. 

    He can't be a good moral teacher and claim to be God, unless He is God!

    Your only escape out of this logical contradiction is to say that Jesus never said that He was God.  Well, that is clearly refuted by scripture...tons of it.  I have posted it before, want me to again?  If you think that this scripture is invalid, on what basis can you make that assumption? 
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. Muslimah

    Muslimah Member

    Can you prove its valid?
    Can you prove that no one ever changed anything in it?
    Can you prove it hasn't been tampered with?
    Last time i asked this kinda question , the answer was 'you must have faith in the bible , if you have faith in the bible , you'll know its the truth'

    Muslims believe that Isa (Jesus) was a Prophet & not god , not the son of god , Just a Prophet. Muslims don't believe Isa died on the cross.
  3. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    Can you prove the Koran is valid?  Not tampered with...whatever that means...as the Koran formed over 20 years at least.

    I know what you believe.  I wanted to address the logical contradiction of the Islamic teaching.

  4. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story


    The Holy Spirit told me that it is valid, but that won't help me prove anything to you...as God isn't about being "proven" or demanded by human minds.
  5. Muslimah

    Muslimah Member

    I did see proof that made me believe that Islam was correct , which made me believe its book , the Quran was correct.
    So since i believe the Quran is Allah's word , then i believe everything in it , including that it hasnt been tampered with and that Bible has :p
  6. Muslimah

    Muslimah Member

    it talks to you?
    [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]!
  7. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    Explain please. What is your "proof"
  8. Muslimah

    Muslimah Member

    Quran talks about stuff that scientist dudes are only discovering now..proof enough for me :)
    I did ask yesterday , If your bible had anything like that but all i got was alot of avoiding of the question..
  9. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    As a matter of fact, yes, some scripture can be interpreted to be discussing scientific facts that were not known at the time.

    Let me look it up for you...

    In the meantime, care to share your Koran's scientific facts?
  10. Muslimah

    Muslimah Member

  11. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    All I see there is about a sperm-drop and an arbitrary mentioning of 40 days...which as we both know, is a standard generic term for a time-span...40 days/40 nights is used throughout the Bible.

    What else you got?
  12. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    LOL, these "scientific facts" are so vague. Besides, Mohammed read the Bible to come up with this stuff in the first place. :D
  13. Muslimah

    Muslimah Member

    Every section of that site has something , not only the Islam and Science bit..
    Where r your science bible verses?
  14. Muslimah

    Muslimah Member

    Muhammed couldnt read or write :p
  15. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    Then how did he "know" these things, and record them, as this site claims?
  16. Muslimah

    Muslimah Member

    Well he didn't get it from the bible :p

    Twas revealed to him by Allah & then it was written down by those who could write and read.
  17. Muslimah

    Muslimah Member

    where r ur bible proofs :)
    i really wanna see
  18. mac_philo

    mac_philo Veteran

    It isn't a logical contradiction. A logical contradiction is when you have two positions that cannot both be true, or when your position entails that a given proposition is both true and untrue.

    This is merely a contradiction in the sense that you are committed to the truth of the proposition "Jesus was more than a prophet." A Muslim can believe that Jesus was a prophet, that the Bible claims that Jesus is God, and that in fact Jesus is not God, all without committing a logical contradiction. It may be true, as you suggest, that this makes Jesus a 'liar,' or that may not be true. Either way, it doesn't result in a logical contradiction.

    The contradiction here is what you believe to be true and what they believe to be true.

    I'm merely pointing out the nature of logical contradiction; since I don't believe either book contains revealed truth I have no agenda in this fight.
  19. Muslimah

    Muslimah Member

    waiting waiting
  20. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    Here are some for you...thanks for waiting.


    Jeremiah 33:22 (written 2500 years ago): "As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured."
    The Bible claimed that there are billions of stars ("host of heaven" is the biblical term for the stars). When it made this statement, no one knew how vast the numbers of stars were as only about 1,100 were observable. Now we know that there are billions of stars, and that they cannot be numbered.

    Job 26:7 (written 3500 years ago): "He stretches out the north over the empty place, and hangs the earth upon nothing."
    The Bible claimed that the earth freely floated in space. Science then thought that the earth sat on a large animal. We now know that the earth has a free float in space.

    Hebrews 11:3 (written 2000 years ago): "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."
    The Bible claims that all creation is made of invisible material. Science then was ignorant of the subject. We now know that the entire creation is made of invisible elements called "atoms."

    Leviticus 17:11 (written 3000 years ago): "For the life of the flesh is in the blood."
    The Scriptures declare that blood is the source of life. Up until 120 years ago, sick people were "bled", and many died because of the practice. We now know that blood is the source of life. If you lose your blood, you will lose your life.

    Leviticus 15:13 (written 3000 years ago): "And when he that has an issue is cleansed of his issue; then he shall number to himself seven days for his cleansing, and wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in running water, and shall be clean."
    The Bible said that when dealing with disease, hands should be washed under running water. Up until 100 years ago doctors washed their hands in a basin of still water, resulting in the death of multitudes. We now know that doctors must wash their hands under running water. The Encyclopedia Britannica documents that in 1845, a young doctor in Vienna named Dr. Ignaz Semmelweis was horrified at the terrible death rate of women who were dying after giving birth in hospitals. As many as 30% of those giving birth died. The Doctor noted that doctors would examine the bodies of those who had died, then, without washing their hands, go straight to the next wards and examine expectant mothers. This was their normal practice, because the presence of microscopic diseases was unknown. Doctor Semmelweis insisted that doctors wash their hands before examinations, and the death rate immediately dropped down to 2%.

    Job 38:35 (written 3,500 years ago. God Himself speaking): "Can you send lightnings, that they may go and say unto you, Here we are?"
    The Bible here is saying a scientifically ludicrous statement -- that light can be sent, and then manifest itself in speech. But did you know that radio waves move at the speed of light? This is why you can have instantaneous wireless communication with someone on the other side of the earth. Science didn' t discover this until 1864 when "the British scientist James Clerk Maxwell suggested that electricity and light waves were two forms of the same thing" (Modern Century Illustrated Encyclopedia, Vol. 12).

    Isaiah 40:22 (written 2800 years ago): "It is he that sits upon the circle of the earth."
    The Bible informs us here that the earth is round. At a time when science believed that the earth was flat, it was the Scriptures that inspired Christopher Columbus to sail around the world. He wrote: "It was the Lord who put it into my mind. I could feel His hand upon me . . . there is no question the inspiration was from the Holy Spirit because He comforted me with rays of marvelous illumination from the Holy Scriptures . . ." (From his diary, in reference to his discovery of "the New World").

    Job 38:19 (written 3500 years ago). "Where is the way where light dwells?"
    Modern man has only just discovered that light (electromagnetic radiation) has a "way," involving motion traveling at 186,000 miles per second.

    Genesis 1:1,3 (written 3,450 years ago): "In the beginning God created the Heaven and the earth . . . And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."
    Science expresses the universe in five terms: time, space, matter, power and motion. "In the beginning (time) God created (power) the Heaven (space) and the earth (matter) . . . And the Spirit of God moved (motion) upon the face of the waters."

    Why did the dinosaur disappear? This is something that has modern science mystified, but the Bible may have the answer (written 3500 years ago. God Himself is speaking):
    "Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eats grass as an ox. Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly. He moves his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together. His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron. He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him. Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play. He lies under the shady trees, in the covert of the reed, and fens. The shady trees cover him with their shadow; the willows of the brook compass him about. Behold, he drinks up a river, and hastens not: he trusts that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth. He takes it with his eyes: his nose pierces through snares. (Job 40:15-24).

    This was the Largest of all creatures He made.
    It was plant-eating (herbivorous).
    It had its strength in its hips.
    Its tail was like a large tree (a cedar).
    It had very strong bones.
    Its habitat was among the trees.
    Drank massive amounts of water.
    His nose pierced through snares.
    Then Scripture says, " . . . He that made him can make his sword approach to him." In other words, God caused this, the largest of all the creatures He had made, to become extinct.

    Psalm 8:8: "And the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passes through the paths of the seas."
    What does the Bible mean by "paths" of the seas? The sea is just a huge mass of water, how then could it have "paths?" Man discovered the existence of ocean currents in the 1850's, but the Bible declared the science of oceanography 2,800 years ago. Matthew Maury (1806- 1873) is considered to be the father of oceanography. He was bedridden during a serious illness and asked his son to read a portion of the Bible to him. While listening, he noticed the expression "paths of the sea." Upon his recovery, Maury took God at His word and went looking for these paths. His book on oceanography is still considered a basic text on the subject and is still used in universities.

    Jonah 2:6 (written 2,800 years ago): "I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet have you brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God."
    When Jonah was in the depths of the ocean, he spoke of going down to the "bottoms of the mountains." Only in recent years has man discovered that there are mountains on the ocean floor. The greatest ocean depth has been sounded in the Challenger Deep of the Mariana's Trench, a distance of 35,798 feet below sea level. Mount Everest is 29,035 feet high.

    Amos 9:6 (written 2,800 years ago): "He . . . calls for the waters of the sea, and pours them out upon the face of the earth; the Lord is His name."
    The Mississippi River dumps over six million gallons of water per second into the Gulf of Mexico. Where does all that water go? That's just one of thousands of rivers. The answer lies in the hydrologic cycle, something that was not fully accepted until the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, 2500 years after the Bible said that God takes the waters of the sea, and pours them upon the face of the earth.

    Job 38:12, 14, (written 3500 years ago) God Himself says: "Have you commanded the morning since your days; and caused the dayspring to know his place; that it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? It [the earth] is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment."
    Modern science has come to understand that the earth's rotation on its axis is responsible for the sun's rising and setting. The picture here is of a vessel of clay being turned or rotated upon the potter's wheel -- an accurate analogy of the earth's rotation.

    Psalm 19:4-6: "In them has He set a tabernacle for the sun, which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoices as a strong man to run a race. His [the sun's] going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof."
    Bible critics have scoffed at these verses, saying that they teach that the sun revolves around the earth. Science told them that the sun was stationary. Then they discovered that the sun is in fact moving through space at approximately 600,000 miles per hour. It is traveling through the heavens and has a "circuit" just as the Bible says. It is estimated that its circuit is so large, it would take 200 million years to complete one orbit.

    Job 38:22 (written 3,500 years ago). God says: "Have you entered into the treasures of the snow?"
    It wasn't until the advent of the microscope that man discovered that each and every single snowflake is uniquely a symmetrical "treasure."

    Genesis 2:1 (after creation): "Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them."
    The Hebrew word used here is the past definite tense for the verb "finished," indicating an action completed in the past, never again to occur. The creation was "finished" -- once and for all. That is what the First Law of Thermodynamics says. It states that neither matter nor energy can be either created or destroyed. There is no "creation" ongoing today. It is "finished" exactly as the Bible states.

    Hebrews 1:10,11 (written 2000 years ago): ". . . And, You, Lord, in the beginning have laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of your hands: They shall perish; but you remain; and they all shall wax old as does a garment." The Bible tells us that the earth is wearing out. This is what the Second Law of Thermodynamics states. This wasn't discovered by science until comparatively recently.
    Genesis 17:12: "And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed."
    Why was circumcision to be carried out on the eighth day? Medical science has discovered that the eighth day is the only day in the entire life of the newborn that the blood clotting element prothrombin is above 100%.

    Genesis 3:15: "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; it shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel."
    This verse reveals that a female possesses the "seed of life." This was not the common knowledge until a few centuries ago. It was widely believed that the male only possessed the "seed of life" and that the woman was nothing more than a glorified incubator.

    Isaiah 40:12 (written 2,800 years ago): "Who has measured the waters in the hollow of His hand . . ."
    We are told that God has measured the waters and set a proper amount of water on the earth. Modern science has proved that the quantity of water on earth is just enough for our needs. If the sea became three meters deeper, the water would absorb all the carbon dioxide and nitrogen, and no creature could live any longer.

    Job 26:7 (written 3500 years ago): "He stretches out the north over the empty place . . ."

    Less than 200 years ago, through the advent of massive telescopes, science learned about the great empty space in the north.

    Isaiah 40:22 (written 2,800 years ago): "It is He that . . . stretches out the heavens as a curtain, and spreads them out as a tent to dwell in."
    Scientists are beginning to understand that the universe is expanding, or stretching out. At least seven times in Scripture we are clearly told that God stretches out the heavens like a curtain.