ATTENTION all Christians......

[Catherineanne]

Ok, we will add those to the list and see if anyone disagrees with them....Thanks
Updated list following:

1There is a life beyond this physical existence.
2 God created man.
3 Man was created for a purpose.
4 God has a special attachment to his children. [who these children are would certianly be a point of contention]
5 Jesus is the way to the Father
6 God is sovereign
7 Jesus is the saviour
8 We are to love God foremost, one another and others- (do unto others as you would have them do to you)
9 God wants obedience from His followers
10 Sin displeases God
11 God wants us to repent, turn away from sin and live a holy life.
12. Unrepented sin will be punished
13 . God is just
14 We are to live by faith
15. God wants a relationship with us
16 God is love
17 Love is the supreme virtue
18 God wants us to know His will
19 God will guide us, if we will let Him
20 We should obey the 10 commandments
21. Jesus taught and lived the truth
22 Jesus is Lord
23 Jesus is the resurrection and the life
24 Jesus is the lamb slain from the foundation of the world
25 Jesus is the Christ
26 Jesus is the light of the world

I have a few comments. Sorry.

Can we amend 2 to read; "God created mankind; male and female."

Also add; "God created everything that is, seen and unseen"

I also feel that without a mention of the Holy Spirit, any list must be incomplete, so perhaps something along the lines of "God is one God; Father, Son and Holy Spirit." I would also like the list of the fruits of the spirit, because these are important identifiers.

I think I would have to strike number 9. I think there is truth in it, but not enough truth, so perhaps someone can think of an alternative variant.

Also, strike 10. Sorry to be pedantic, but I think displeases is not the right word. I would prefer something like "God cannot look on sin, which separates mankind from himself"

Ok, sorry, but strike 11 too. The focus is wrong; it is on the process rather than the motivation. "God wants us to live lives in full communion with himself."

Strike 12. I think we do not know enough about this one. I would prefer "Unrepented sin constitutes a barrier to communion with God."

Strike 18 too. God does not always make his will clear. I would say, "God wants us always to seek his will, and follow it."

Strike 19. Again, he does not always guide. I would prefer "God will always walk beside us, but we may not always know he is there."

Strike 24. It is too jargony, and pretty well meaningless unless you understand the jargon. It makes Christianity into a kind of secret society. Change to; "Jesus is the sacrificial Lamb of God, who gave his life for the sins of the world" To replace the beginning of the world bit, then we perhaps need something from John's gospel. Actually, this applies to 23 also. Too obscure. "Jesus died and rose again, to show us the way to eternal life" would perhaps be clearer.

I also would like to see "Jesus Christ is the Word of God" included, personally.

Apart from that ...

 

[Havahope]

I have a few comments. Sorry.

Can we amend 2 to read; "God created mankind; male and female."

Also add; "God created everything that is, seen and unseen"

I also feel that without a mention of the Holy Spirit, any list must be incomplete, so perhaps something along the lines of "God is one God; Father, Son and Holy Spirit." I would also like the list of the fruits of the spirit, because these are important identifiers.

I think I would have to strike number 9. I think there is truth in it, but not enough truth, so perhaps someone can think of an alternative variant.

Also, strike 10. Sorry to be pedantic, but I think displeases is not the right word. I would prefer something like "God cannot look on sin, which separates mankind from himself"

Ok, sorry, but strike 11 too. The focus is wrong; it is on the process rather than the motivation. "God wants us to live lives in full communion with himself."

Strike 12. I think we do not know enough about this one. I would prefer "Unrepented sin constitutes a barrier to communion with God."

Strike 18 too. God does not always make his will clear. I would say, "God wants us always to seek his will, and follow it."

Strike 19. Again, he does not always guide. I would prefer "God will always walk beside us, but we may not always know he is there."

Strike 24. It is too jargony, and pretty well meaningless unless you understand the jargon. It makes Christianity into a kind of secret society. Change to; "Jesus is the sacrificial Lamb of God, who gave his life for the sins of the world" To replace the beginning of the world bit, then we perhaps need something from John's gospel. Actually, this applies to 23 also. Too obscure. "Jesus died and rose again, to show us the way to eternal life" would perhaps be clearer.

I also would like to see "Jesus Christ is the Word of God" included, personally.

Apart from that ...

Maybe you should start a completely new list of your own.

 

[EchoPneuma]

I have a few comments. Sorry.

Can we amend 2 to read; "God created mankind; male and female."

Also add; "God created everything that is, seen and unseen"

I also feel that without a mention of the Holy Spirit, any list must be incomplete, so perhaps something along the lines of "God is one God; Father, Son and Holy Spirit." I would also like the list of the fruits of the spirit, because these are important identifiers.

I think I would have to strike number 9. I think there is truth in it, but not enough truth, so perhaps someone can think of an alternative variant.

Also, strike 10. Sorry to be pedantic, but I think displeases is not the right word. I would prefer something like "God cannot look on sin, which separates mankind from himself"

Ok, sorry, but strike 11 too. The focus is wrong; it is on the process rather than the motivation. "God wants us to live lives in full communion with himself."

Strike 12. I think we do not know enough about this one. I would prefer "Unrepented sin constitutes a barrier to communion with God."

Strike 18 too. God does not always make his will clear. I would say, "God wants us always to seek his will, and follow it."

Strike 19. Again, he does not always guide. I would prefer "God will always walk beside us, but we may not always know he is there."

Strike 24. It is too jargony, and pretty well meaningless unless you understand the jargon. It makes Christianity into a kind of secret society. Change to; "Jesus is the sacrificial Lamb of God, who gave his life for the sins of the world" To replace the beginning of the world bit, then we perhaps need something from John's gospel. Actually, this applies to 23 also. Too obscure. "Jesus died and rose again, to show us the way to eternal life" would perhaps be clearer.

I also would like to see "Jesus Christ is the Word of God" included, personally.

Apart from that ...

Catherine, I don't think you understand the purpose of the list. It's not to word each thing exactly to please each person...it's to agree on general principles of Christianity. Of course there is going to be some variant in understanding of certain words and phrases...and we aren't going to word them just like YOU or anyone else would want them worded....we are going to keep them very general.....or you start getting into the doctrinal differences that divide instead of finding those things that we agree on.

So with that being said. I will alter the list as follows:

on #2 we will put male and female for clarification
"God created everything seen and unseen" will be added

I won't put in that God is "Father Son and Holy Spirit" because I already know that is an area of division among Christians....take the Oneness Pentecostals for instance.

I will put in that "Christians should exhibit the fruits of the Spirit"

I won't strike #9 because God DOES want obedience from His followers. You say there is not enough truth in the statement. Then add another truth, but we aren't going to strike that one because there is no disagreement as to it's truth.

As far as #10, are you saying that sin PLEASES God? If not, then it DISPLEASES Him. Like I said, I'm not getting into specific wording that pleases everyone. If you want, I will add "God can not look upon sin" or "sin separates man from God". and see if everyone agrees with it.

#11 will stay because all you did was reword it.

I will strike #12 because you disagree with it.

#18 - Doesn't say God always makes His will clear....it says He wants us to know His will. Do you disagree? Do you think He DOESN'T want us to know His will? I will add to the list "God wants us to seek His will and follow it"

#19 - You have not disagreed with the statement...again you have reworded it. Just because we don't know God is there doesn't mean He's not guiding us. Are you saying if we allow God to, that He WILL NOT guide us? That He will leave us hanging in the dark? So it stays unless you say you flat disagree.

#23 and #24 are direct quotes from the bible....do you disagree with them or just want to reword? If you say they aren't true then we will strike them...but if you just want to reword then they stay as they are.

I will add "Jesus Christ is the Word of God"...

Ok, with all those considerations here's the updated list:

1There is a life beyond this physical existence.
2 God created man as male and female
3 Man was created for a purpose.
4 God has a special attachment to his children. [who these children are would certianly be a point of contention]
5 Jesus is the way to the Father
6 God is sovereign
7 Jesus is the saviour
8 We are to love God foremost, one another and others- (do unto others as you would have them do to you)
9 God wants obedience from His followers
10 Sin displeases God
11 God wants us to repent, turn away from sin and live a holy life.
12 . God is just
13 We are to live by faith
14. God wants a relationship with us
15 God is love
16 Love is the supreme virtue
17 God wants us to know His will
18 God will guide us, if we will let Him
19 We should obey the 10 commandments
20. Jesus taught and lived the truth
21 Jesus is Lord
22 Jesus is the resurrection and the life
23 Jesus is the lamb slain from the foundation of the world
24 Jesus is the Christ
25 Jesus is the light of the world
26 Christians should exhibit the fruits of the Spirit
27 God created everything seen and unseen
28 God wants us to seek His will and follow it
29 Jesus Christ is the Word of God

 

[EchoPneuma]

Maybe you should start a completely new list of your own.

I was thinking that too...but I tried to accomodate her as much as possible without compromising the whole purpose of the list...

 

[EchoPneuma]

Some folks say 2 + 2 = chair and call it truth

kewl thread, like the list too

I know what you mean....some people will argue that the sky is green....and maybe in their world it IS..

Thanks, so you agree with all the things on the list?

Want to add any?

 

[MormonFriend]

#20 might be contentious, as mercy seems to run counter to it. In fact, I think that statement would seem to contradict mercy.

That's the sum of my dissension.

Is not mercy extended on conditions of repentance? When we repent, we are sowing, and will reap the fruits of mercy.

Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same.
(Old Testament | Job 4:8)

I hope this is not contrary to the threads intent, just voicing an observation.

 

[MormonFriend]

...
I think I would have to strike number 9. I think there is truth in it, but not enough truth, so perhaps someone can think of an alternative variant. ...

I agree, but perhaps not for the same reason. I think it should read that God requires obedience to be known as a true follower. Is not a follower someone who follows another's lead? Who are we following when we display disobedience? (Nevertheless He extends patience and mercy as we learn the principles of obedience, and make errors in the process.)

I am pierced with plain truth by the scripture that tells it like it is.

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
(Hebrews 5:9)

 

[MormonFriend]

... Also, strike 10. Sorry to be pedantic, but I think displeases is not the right word. I would prefer something like "God cannot look on sin, which separates mankind from himself" ...

Very good observation!

FYI, the Book of Mormon makes this definition:

And he said: Thus saith the Lord God—Cursed shall be the land, yea, this land, unto every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, unto destruction, which do wickedly, when they are fully ripe; and as I have said so shall it be; for this is the cursing and the blessing of God upon the land, for the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance.
(Book of Mormon | Alma 45:16)

 

[MormonFriend]

... Strike 18 too. God does not always make his will clear. ...

And how can you be sure the problem is not on the receiving end?

Ditto with this comment: "Strike 19. Again, he does not always guide. I would prefer "God will always walk beside us, but we may not always know he is there."

God may always be guiding, but you are right, we may not always know He is there. If we are not as close to God today as we were yesterday, ...who do you think moved?

 

[MormonFriend]

We all know that there are many things that divide us as Christians into different denominations and differents "sects"....mostly these things have to do with differing interpretations of things in the bible.

But I want to do an experiment and find out what unites us. I want to know what kind of a "creed" we could come up with if we only put things in it that we could ALL agree upon were true. I want to include all Christians in this.....everyone who claims the name of Christ is included.....universalists, Mormons, JW's, preterists etc. I will start the list.....if there is ANYTHING on this list that you disagree with, then say so....you don't even have to give a reason for the disagreement....just say "I don't believe that is true" and we will strike it from the list.

If you want to add something to the list...then we will, and see if everyone will agree with it.

I want to see just how many things truly unite us in our beliefs and what beliefs are really UNIVERSAL among all believers....

Here's my list (add to it or disagree with it as you will)

1There is a life beyond this physical existence.
2 God created man.
3 Man was created for a purpose.
4 God has a special attachment to his children. [who these children are would certianly be a point of contention]
5 Jesus is the way to the Father
6 God is sovereign
7 Jesus is the saviour
8 We are to love God foremost, one another and others
9 God wants obedience from His followers
10 Sin displeases God
11 God wants us to repent, turn away from sin and live a holy life.
12. Unrepented sin will be punished
13 . God is just
14 We are to live by faith
15. God wants a relationship with us
16 God is love
17 Love is the supreme virtue
18 God wants us to know His will
19 God will guide us, if we will let Him
20 You reap what you sow....
21 We should obey the 10 commandments
22. Jesus taught and lived the truth

#2 I agree with, but there is a great ambiguity that greatly effects #3. The majority of Christianity believes in creation exnihilo, that you and I had no spark of existence whatsoever, until God made us who and what we are. If we are created from nothing, then everything we are is the result of what God made us to be. Free will is a constant, and is the same for everyone. Since we respond differently to free will, it can only be attributed to how God made us. So now that affects #13 in your first list. How could a just God condemn so many to hell, when He created them that way?

 

[Rescued One]

Is not mercy extended on conditions of repentance?

No.


Exodus 33
19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

Romans 9
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

2 Timothy 2
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;


Romans 2
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

2 Corinthians 7
9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.

 

[Rescued One]

I agree, but perhaps not for the same reason. I think it should read that God requires obedience to be known as a true follower. Is not a follower someone who follows another's lead? Who are we following when we display disobedience? (Nevertheless He extends patience and mercy as we learn the principles of obedience, and make errors in the process.)

I am pierced with plain truth by the scripture that tells it like it is.

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
(Hebrews 5:9)

God is the One who grants obedience.

Romans 9
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


Ephesians 2
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[BarryK]

Why don't you take a clue from the OP and see what the intent of the thread is? It wasn't to quote scripture, it was to put forth beliefs that we can all agree on. I wasn't pathetically (you mispelled it) watering down anything. I happen to know that some factions of believers don't agree that Jesus is THE truth because truth is an abstract concept and they say that Jesus can't be an abstract CONCEPT...like 2+2=4 is truth and Napoleon was defeated at Waterloo is truth....so does that mean that Jesus is a math formula or a historical fact? They see it differently.....so I left that out. I have on the list "Jesus is the way to the Father" (the way)...and "Jesus is the resurrection and the life" (the life)....then I put "Jesus taught and lived the truth" because of the problem with the abstract meaning of "Jesus is the truth".

Now, do you have something constructive to add to the list? or do you disagree with something? or are you just here to make snide remarks?

I repeat, JESUS IS THE TRUTH, If He is not the truth, then He must be a liar, as he said "I am the way THE TRUTH and the life" and if He is a liar, well...

There is a huge difference between teaching the truth and being the truth

 

[EchoPneuma]

#2 I agree with, but there is a great ambiguity that greatly effects #3. The majority of Christianity believes in creation exnihilo, that you and I had no spark of existence whatsoever, until God made us who and what we are. If we are created from nothing, then everything we are is the result of what God made us to be. Free will is a constant, and is the same for everyone. Since we respond differently to free will, it can only be attributed to how God made us. So now that affects #13 in your first list. How could a just God condemn so many to hell, when He created them that way?

That is exactly why we aren't getting into specifics and are keeping everything general. I think everyone would agree that man WAS created for a purpose....that is a universal belief. When you start getting into HOW man was created or EXACTLY what that purpose IS...then you start the disagreement.

The same with #13....God is just is a universal belief from what I can tell...I don't know of any Christians who say that God is UNJUST.....but how that plays out in reality is, again, a seed of dissention....so we will keep it a general statement....allowing each to interpret it in line with their OWN doctrine.

 

[EchoPneuma]

No.


Exodus 33
19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

Romans 9
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

2 Timothy 2
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;


Romans 2
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

2 Corinthians 7
9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.

and we can see why that one was stricken from the list....it is obviously not something that is agreed upon.

 

[EchoPneuma]

God is the One who grants obedience.

Romans 9
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


Ephesians 2
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

See? There is a disagreement between you two over whether or not God requires repentance or grants repentance...but can't you both agree that God WANTS us to repent? If He REQUIRES it.....He obviously WANTS it or He wouldn't require it.....if He GRANTS it...He still obviously WANTS it or He wouldn't grant it. That's why I worded it the way I did.

 

[EchoPneuma]

I repeat, JESUS IS THE TRUTH, If He is not the truth, then He must be a liar, as he said "I am the way THE TRUTH and the life" and if He is a liar, well...

There is a huge difference between teaching the truth and being the truth

Barry, I explained why I left that off the list.....because of the vagueness of what is meant and the difference in interpretation of the statement "I am the truth".

I'm not saying I don't believe it or it's not true....I'm saying that it can't be agreed on by ALL Christians....because some say that Jesus can't LITERALLY be "truth".....because "truth" isn't an actual thing but a concept....an abstraction....and Jesus isn't an abstraction or a concept but a real person. They interpret it differently than you do....and hence there is disunity over it. So it is left out.

and I know there is a big difference between BEING the truth and TEACHING the truth. But do you disagree that Jesus taught and lived the truth? Or do you agree with that statement?

 

[EchoPneuma]

The current list at this point: (Subject to change as the thread continues)

1There is a life beyond this physical existence.
2 God created man as male and female
3 Man was created for a purpose.
4 God has a special attachment to his children. [who these children are would certianly be a point of contention]
5 Jesus is the way to the Father
6 God is sovereign
7 Jesus is the saviour
8 We are to love God foremost, one another and others- (do unto others as you would have them do to you)
9 God wants obedience from His followers
10 Sin displeases God
11 God wants us to repent, turn away from sin and live a holy life.
12 . God is just
13 We are to live by faith
14. God wants a relationship with us
15 God is love
16 Love is the supreme virtue
17 God wants us to know His will
18 God will guide us, if we will let Him
19 We should obey the 10 commandments
20. Jesus taught and lived the truth
21 Jesus is Lord
22 Jesus is the resurrection and the life
23 Jesus is the lamb slain from the foundation of the world
24 Jesus is the Christ
25 Jesus is the light of the world
26 Christians should exhibit the fruits of the Spirit
27 God created everything seen and unseen
28 God wants us to seek His will and follow it
29 Jesus Christ is the Word of God

 

[BarryK]

Barry, I explained why I left that off the list.....because of the vagueness of what is meant and the difference in interpretation of the statement "I am the truth".

I'm not saying I don't believe it or it's not true....I'm saying that it can't be agreed on by ALL Christians....because some say that Jesus can't LITERALLY be "truth".....because "truth" isn't an actual thing but a concept....an abstraction....and Jesus isn't an abstraction or a concept but a real person. They interpret it differently than you do....and hence there is disunity over it. So it is left out.

and I know there is a big difference between BEING the truth and TEACHING the truth. But do you disagree that Jesus taught and lived the truth? Or do you agree with that statement?

Webster defines "truth" as that which conforms to reality, I guess that "Reality" is too abstract for some people.

I agree with that statement, but it goes not nearly far enough.

 

[EchoPneuma]

Webster defines "truth" as that which conforms to reality, I guess that "Reality" is too abstract for some people.

I guess so.

I agree with that statement, but it goes not nearly far enough.

I understand. Perhaps you would like to add a statement to the list? Something like "Jesus is the embodiment of spiritual reality" and see if it is universal?