Attending a Synagogue for the 1st time Sat.

[BourbonFromHeaven]

Wow BFH! A little touchy aren't you?

Nope I just have to be frank, when it comes to Messianic Christanity. Messianics always try to blur the line, when it comes to Judaism and their version of Christanity.

Have you been to a Messianic congregation? Do you actually know anything about Messianic Judaism or are you just guessing from things you've heard?

Nope, going to a Messianic congregation to bench licht would be near blasphomey, since they revere Jesus to be on par with a diety ( Heaven forbid ).

I had a couple of great disscusions with some Messianic Pastors ( some called themselves Rabbis ) that was a great example of exposing their idealogoy for what it was ( and as Chokmah said ) Christanity in a Kippa, however, the Jewish Debate forums are a thing of the past and those disscusions have been lost ( Albiet, the Mods did try to get them for me, bit it was too late )

 

[BourbonFromHeaven]

Therese, just so my motives are transparent, let me clearly say that I strongly discourage you from practicing Judaism. To practice Judaism is to deny that Jesus is the Christ; hence it is apostasy. And apostasy is a sin that leads to condemnation. If you wish to practice Judaism, then you ought to be certain that you don't believe in Christianity.

I absolutetly agree. Judaism and Christanity do not go hand in hand. Thats why I urged here to seek Christanity's more spiritual side, to see if it is more fufilling.

But, if you are still intent upon apostasizing to Judaism, then you should certainly hear what BourbonFromHeaven has to say. He's extremely knowledgable about Judaism, and I have found him to be a very helpful resource.

Awwwww

 

[BourbonFromHeaven]

You don't know anything about me or what I believe. I'm one of those dreaded Hebrew Roots people and I firmly believe that we're called to Torah Observance as a lifestyle. So obviously Messianic Judaism is FAR more to me than "Christianity in a kippah."

That would be a matter of discussion. I would, however, like to point out, that much of the "Hebrew Roots" movement is dependent on Rabbincal writings, on how they tie tzzizit, what is kosher, mezzezuah, etc, etc.

Yet, for them to accept these Rabbincal Works as Jews do, they would seem to have to accept Rabbincal Authority, which they deny up and down. It ends up being an odd mix of, using the Rabbis to make them look Jewish in apperance, yet deny the theology of their work.

I'm also rather new to MJ so I don't know what you're talking about when you said that about playing the martyr. I also am not touchy.... I am rather blunt.

And what you said about Tishri wasn't nice at all.

The Noachide/Jewish relations with the Messianic Community has really been strained in the past. Tishiri and a few other Messianics, who I think might have moved on had a very lengthy discussion with Talmidah, Chokmah and myself about why Messianic Christanity isn't even in the realm of being "Jewish" in any sense of the word.

 

[chokmah]

Chokmah, you don't believe that Yeshua/Jesus is G-d?

No.

I did for a very long time.
I then took him to be an expression of the Metatron.
Then I saw him as a man.
Now, I see him as a man that may or may not have existed.

 

[arunma]

And here I thought I've done my best to be kind and polite while sharing honestly.

Well, everybody on this forum is hostile to somebody (OK, maybe not you ). I think we can all work to show a higher degree of respect towards others.

Interesting idea! First look at my faithsymbol, thats it the scrolls, right now let me set out my beliefs

Total depravity
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints

orthodox enough for you

As it is Valentines day I even made the words spell a flower for you

OK, it seems that I spoke presumptuously. Indeed your doctrines are in keeping with the Reformed Protestant tradition. I still have trouble understanding the "Hebrew roots" concept though. It just seems like a step in the wrong direction.

 

[chokmah]

Well, everybody on this forum is hostile to somebody (OK, maybe not you ). I think we can all work to show a higher degree of respect towards others.

Arunma:

Let me ask you if you would for me to clarify each and every comment of mine with a little emoticon so that I can "show" that my statements are not disrespectful and/or mean-spirited?

OK, it seems that I spoke presumptuously. Indeed your doctrines are in keeping with the Reformed Protestant tradition. I still have trouble understanding the "Hebrew roots" concept though. It just seems like a step in the wrong direction.

Well... you've written uncategorically that Judaism and Christianity are incompatible. It would appear that BFH, Talmidah, and myself would agree. Therefore, for someone from your standpoint, and one (Espada) that agrees with Calvinistic doctrine - it would be a form of conscience crisis on trying to assimilate the two. Therefore, it would probably be a step in the "wrong" direction.

 

[BourbonFromHeaven]

OK, it seems that I spoke presumptuously. Indeed your doctrines are in keeping with the Reformed Protestant tradition. I still have trouble understanding the "Hebrew roots" concept though. It just seems like a step in the wrong direction.

Messianic Christanity, is a congregation movement, meaning, all flavours of Christanity can assume the role of a messianic congregation. There are Congregations that use the Orthodox Sacrements, Charismatic congregations, Protestant, etc, etc.

Anyone you see with the Messainic Scroll, by these forum rules, accepts all the parts of the nicene creed.

 

[BourbonFromHeaven]

I still have trouble understanding the "Hebrew roots" concept though. It just seems like a step in the wrong direction.

The pulse, I get from alot of messainics, is that, if I hereby try to look, act and sound Jewish, I have instant credability. That I have deeper connection to Jesus, becuase I copy the worship style of Rabbinic Judaism.

Alot of Messainic Congregations, hold the same beliefs you do Arunma. Just put a kippah on your head, carry around a copy Stern's Jewish New Testament, use a couple of Yiddish words every day, and all of a sudden, you are now a member of the Jewish community and worship exactly how Yeshua did!

The bind all Messianics are put in tho, is how they claim to observe "Torah"...

If they use Rabbincal interpetations, then it's just self delusion and hypocricy, becuase Rabbincal Rulings also include theology, which denies the divinty of Jesus, his messiahship, the Trinity, salvation by the death of Jesus, etc, etc. You won't find the five points of Calvinism in any Jewish documents.

Another option is to appeal to the Karaite interpetations of the Torah's laws, but are still tradtions maintained, just like Rabbinic Judaism. Again, Karaites deny the same conclusions on scripture ( doctrine) that Christianity holds. Again, good luck finding the Five Points of Calvinism here.

Third, they just choose to ignore it. I wear this hat, I'll call this prayerbook a sidur and I'll use the word Oy, no one I know will be able to tell the difference.

One thing that binds the Jewish people togther, and helps us stay strong, is our love of Tradition and maintaining it for future generations. Today's Modern Judaism, is dierectly related to the Pharisee. We can trace beliefs all the way back to the 1st centuary and in some isntance, before that. Ever since then, we have maintained a consistint core doctrine.

Now, if Messianic Christanity, is really a form of Judaism, where have they been for the past 2,000+ years? No Jewish community has ever survived from 1st centuary to today, ever. Jesus has never been in Jewish tradtion, ever. While there have been Jewish apostates to Christanity, there has never been a consistent, long held tradtion of Jesus in any form of Judaism.

 

[arunma]

Arunma:

Let me ask you if you would for me to clarify each and every comment of mine with a little emoticon so that I can "show" that my statements are not disrespectful and/or mean-spirited?

Well I already understand your reasons for feeling as you do about Messianic Judaism. I suppose the problem is getting the Messianic Jews to understand. I hope my comments have helped.

Well... you've written uncategorically that Judaism and Christianity are incompatible. It would appear that BFH, Talmidah, and myself would agree. Therefore, for someone from your standpoint, and one (Espada) that agrees with Calvinistic doctrine - it would be a form of conscience crisis on trying to assimilate the two. Therefore, it would probably be a step in the "wrong" direction.

I agree completely.

Messianic Christanity, is a congregation movement, meaning, all flavours of Christanity can assume the role of a messianic congregation. There are Congregations that use the Orthodox Sacrements, Charismatic congregations, Protestant, etc, etc.

Anyone you see with the Messainic Scroll, by these forum rules, accepts all the parts of the nicene creed.

To be honest, I've never understood the point of the Messianic movement. Christianity, by definition, is Messianic. The very label seems redundant.

 

[chokmah]

To be honest, I've never understood the point of the Messianic movement. Christianity, by definition, is Messianic. The very label seems redundant.

Well... funny enough: Judaism is also Messianic. Therefore,it's redundant in that fashion as well. However, it's future instead of past.

 

[BourbonFromHeaven]

To be honest, I've never understood the point of the Messianic movement. Christianity, by definition, is Messianic. The very label seems redundant.

In who believes in the coming or return of a "messiah" in general, is messianic by nature. So, I see myself a Messainic Jew and you are a Messianic follower of Christ. I'm not sure where the term was coined...

I however, refuse to call the movement "Messianic Judaism" becuase it implies they are members of the Jewish Commmunity and represent a facet of the Jewish faith, which in both cases, they don't. Their very faith in the Divinity of Jesus, the salvation of his death and the belief of his return, makes them Christians.

 

[jgonz]

Christianity has, however, made Paul's writings more important than Torah, and that I can not agree with.

I call myself Messianic. Not a MJew (because as far as I know I have no Jewish blood) and not Christian because the term "Christian" has such an anti-semetic feel these days...

 

[BourbonFromHeaven]

I call myself Messianic. Not a MJew (because as far as I know I have no Jewish blood) and not Christian because the term "Christian" has such an anti-semetic feel these days...

I'm am far from being offended by the word "Christian". It doesn't carry any more anti-semetic connotations then it does saying you are a German (i.e, none).

If you worship Jesus and model yourself after his teachings, then why would you not want to be considered Christ-like or Christian?

 

[chokmah]

Christianity has, however, made Paul's writings more important with Torah, and that I can not agree with.

I call myself Messianic. Not a MJew (because as far as I know I have no Jewish blood) and not Christian because the term "Christian" has such an anti-semetic feel these days...

Those are valid reasons.

I, personally, hope that you continue studying and developing your path.

 

[arunma]

Christianity has, however, made Paul's writings more important than Torah, and that I can not agree with.

Paul's writings are no more or less important than the Law of Moses. It is impossible to fully understand the Law without the writings of Paul and the other Apostles. To divorce the Law from any of the New Testament writings would lead us into heresy, which is why we should always consider the entire Bible.

I call myself Messianic. Not a MJew (because as far as I know I have no Jewish blood) and not Christian because the term "Christian" has such an anti-semetic feel these days...

Forgive me, but I don't consider myself or other Christians to be anti-semitic at all. We know that any Christian who is anti-semitic (or racist in another way) is guilty of practicing wickedness.

 

[BlandOatmeal]

WOW!
​

Forgive my exuberance, and forgive my not following the last few posts just now (Supper's almost on the table). I just wan to say that I've been for my first full sitting in a halachic (Conservative Judaism) synagogue, and am
​

pleased out of my socks!
​

I have never, ever been in a discussion over the Bible that was less contentious. The rabbi is a teacher by profession, and he led the discussion in such a way as to ensure that (1) everyone was free to contribute and (2) the scripture (Exodus 21, etc.) was fully expounded! In the past, I could not even get into such a discussion with my best friends -- and I picked my friends, based on how much they loved the Bible.

Before I rush off to eat, I just want to say that I feel like Dr. Lazarus on Galaxy Quest(q.v.) -- I had been grumpily going from one autograph-signing promotion to another, based on a long-dead career as an actor in a phoney movie, and now I find myself playing a real role in the real thing! It's wonderful!

Shalom shalom. Gottaeat...​