ATonement?

[BillyWheaton]

atonement: Amends or reparation made for an injury or wrong; expiation.

For Christians, this is the concept of what actually happened when Jesus died and rose again from the dead.

What actually happened and why it matters is arguably the most important concept of Christianity. Yet many do not know what there view of Atonement is.

How is this possible. There are various views. Many not compatible with others. Yet, many Christians pull out one view at times that are convenient, and other views at other times.

Why is this overlooked in churches.

BillyWheaton billy@billywheaton.com

 

[WashedClean]

Yet, many Christians pull out one view at times that are convenient, and other views at other times.

Could you elaborate a little more on this statement? I'm not sure what you mean.

 

[BillyWheaton]

Could you elaborate a little more on this statement? I'm not sure what you mean.

views that sometimes say Jesus wnet to Hell and defeated Satan and those that say Jesus died "to pay the penalty" for our sins are largely incompatible. As well rarely do any try to explain HOW this process happens.

 

[Adstar]

views that sometimes say Jesus wnet to Hell and defeated Satan and those that say Jesus died "to pay the penalty" for our sins are largely incompatible. As well rarely do any try to explain HOW this process happens.

The view that Jesus went to hell and defeated satan there is not supported by the Bible. But there is a verse that supports the doctrine that Jesus went to the dead and gave them an opportunity to accept His atonement for their sins.

Anyway i do not see how this is incompatible with the atonement of the Messiah Jesus?

The process of atonement was shown to the Jews in the OT through the covenant. That being the High Priests sacrifice for the Atonement of the sins of the people. This was a shadow of a greater atoning sacrifice that was to come, That of the Messiah Jesus.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[BillyWheaton]

The view that Jesus went to hell and defeated satan there is not supported by the Bible. But there is a verse that supports the doctrine that Jesus went to the dead and gave them an opportunity to accept His atonement for their sins.

Anyway i do not see how this is incompatible with the atonement of the Messiah Jesus?

The process of atonement was shown to the Jews in the OT through the covenant. That being the High Priests sacrifice for the Atonement of the sins of the people. This was a shadow of a greater atoning sacrifice that was to come, That of the Messiah Jesus.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

most christians believe in satan and think he plays a large role in there supernatural world and suppose he has a role in the death and rez story-- yet for most protestant he doesn't-- thus most Christians have a big role and no context for the satan thing-- as he is responsible for any "doubt" he leave a mark on Christians that IMHO is immoral!

 

[LilLamb219]

Jesus died in our substitute and he did this on the cross. That is where atonement was made for our sins. It was necessary for death to take place as God told Adam that if he ate of the forbidden fruit, he would surely die; so someone had to die. Thankfully the perfect lamb, one without blemish, died in our place.

Romans 3:25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.

 

[BillyWheaton]

Romans 3:25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.

so satan is irrelevent?

 

[Adstar]

most christians believe in satan and think he plays a large role in there supernatural world and suppose he has a role in the death and rez story-- yet for most protestant he doesn't-- thus most Christians have a big role and no context for the satan thing-- as he is responsible for any "doubt" he leave a mark on Christians that IMHO is immoral!

I find it hard to understand what you are saying here?

As for protestants nearly every one that i have talked to does acknowledge the existence of satan and his deceptive power. He does play a role.

what is this context that you are after? and what is this mark you talk of? and what are you referring to as immoral?

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Davis]

I find it hard to understand what you are saying here?

As for protestants nearly every one that i have talked to does acknowledge the existence of satan and his deceptive power. He does play a role.

what is this context that you are after? and what is this mark you talk of? and what are you referring to as immoral?

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I believe that Satan is alive and real just like you said.
I'm not sure I understand the OPs question either.

 

[LilLamb219]

so satan is irrelevent?

In what way?

The death and and resurrection of Christ defeated Satan who had hoped to gain ALL souls because atonement was made at the cross and by being resurrected, it gave mankind the hope of the resurrection that is to come at Christ's second coming.

I'm not sure what else you're getting at. I haven't come across Christians who think of the atonement in other terms, so this is interesting to me.

 

[dvd_holc]

Jesus' sacrifice made way for the permenant pressence of God on Earth because his sacrifice was the ultimate act of God to establish mercy for humanity. Satan wants to destroy humanity and this creation, and Jesus crushed Satan's grasp on it...to that end the permenant kingdom of God or reign of God has been established on this Earth that will one day bring about to completion. Hell had two subdivisions...the grave and eternal punishment....everyone before us went to the grave...but not everyone has gone to eternal punishment.

 

[BillyWheaton]

Satan wants to destroy humanity and this creation, and Jesus crushed Satan's grasp on it...to that end the permenant kingdom of God or reign of God has been established on this Earth that will one day bring about to completion. Hell had two subdivisions...the grave and eternal punishment....everyone before us went to the grave...but not everyone has gone to eternal punishment.

This view of Satan seems to me to be inconsistent with a view that Jesus death and resurrection was effectively a paid penalty for your sins. I dont think you could logically connect the dots of what you are claiming about satan and what your verses suggest you believe about atonement. Either Satan is responsible in some way for sin or we are responsible ( individually) for our own sins and satan though maybe an instigator, is not responsible for our sins.

 

[BillyWheaton]

In what way?

The death and and resurrection of Christ defeated Satan .

Saying this is inconsistent with your previous assertion that Jesus died to pay the penalty for our sins. These are very tangible concept you (and most prostestant Christians) use like "pay," "penalty," "defeated," "your sins" Satan has no mention or role in the most common assertions about atonement. the paid the price (penalty) for your sins. Adding a defeated Satan to the mix is logically inconsistent.

This only add to my assumption that the Satan story is pulled out only when there is some benefit to that message even though it is incompatible with typical view of atonement.

 

[BillyWheaton]

As for protestants nearly every one that i have talked to does acknowledge the existence of satan and his deceptive power. He does play a role.

I agree, most protestants do beleive in a role for Satan. Yet, he is absengt from any mention in most core doctrines and is completely absent in a explaination of what was accomplished in the death and ressurection of Jesus.

Yet, when a bad guy is needed, Satan shows up provoking sin and having some part of the ressurection story. This Satan being defeated thing is inconsistent with the traditional protestant view of atonement.

 

[LilLamb219]

Saying this is inconsistent with your previous assertion that Jesus died to pay the penalty for our sins. These are very tangible concept you (and most prostestant Christians) use like "pay," "penalty," "defeated," "your sins" Satan has no mention or role in the most common assertions about atonement. the paid the price (penalty) for your sins. Adding a defeated Satan to the mix is logically inconsistent.

It's not inconsistent at all. We are either God's children or Satan's children. To be God's children, we need to be holy. We cannot make ourselves holy but Christians in their baptism are covered by Christ's holiness and by His body and blood that was sacrificed at the cross. At the cross, Christ redeemed us. By grace through faith, God gets us to believe in this Gospel so that we may have eternal life. If we reject, we are still a child of Satan. Christ defeated Satan by dying on the cross but yet, our sinful nature still wants no part of the triune God and so rejects him...sticking with Satan.

Does that help you understand?

 

[BillyWheaton]

It's not inconsistent at all. We are either God's children or Satan's children.

Actually it is inconsistent. Either Jesus stops satan and allows direct communication with human and God OR Jesus paid the penalty for your sins that you (and not Satan) are responsible for the penalty..

By the way my analysis is a fairly standard understanding of the atonement. But once again, Im amazed at how few Christians know much about even basic arguments and differences in theoies of atonement. Your VIEWS ARE INCONSISTENT. If you dont think so, please show me how they are consistent without just saying it!

 

[Chris Norwood]

I don't think that the "God's children vs. Satan's children" thing is really accurate. It sets up some kind of parity or equality between Satan and God, which is so not true. Satan is still only a being created by God who was the first to turn against Him.

The Bible doesn't say that we are either slaves to God or to Satan, it says we are slaves either to God or sin (Romans 6:16). I think we far too often give "credit" to Satan for our sin ("the devil made me do it"). Most of the sin we commit flows out of our own selfish hearts. Yes, Satan has the power to push us along and intensify the natural temptations that we face, but he has no power to "make" us do anything.

Finally, to address the original question, Jesus' death on the cross paid for the debt earned by all of us for our sin (The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. -Romans 6:23). Now, many think that he spent his three days of death in "hell", where we would all go if we died outside of a relationship with God. But there was no "Smackdown" with Satan while he was there. This idea flows out of a pagan thought process where Satan is some kind of "god of the underworld" and that he is actively seeking to "steal" souls to add to his kingdom. This is completely false, because hell is a place designed to punish Satan. Satan is like a "roaring lion" that prowls around here on the earth, seeking to disrupt God and his work.

Satan was "defeated" by Jesus because Satan's goal is to spread rebellion and death to all of God's children. Jesus tore the veil separating humanity from God, and now all we have to do is to believe in Jesus, who he was, and what he did; then accept him as our lord and savior. It also was the last "hurdle" that had to be passed before Satan himself would be judged. Now, Satan knows that his end is near as he will be forever destroyed when this world's time is up.

 

[dvd_holc]

This view of Satan seems to me to be inconsistent with a view that Jesus death and resurrection was effectively a paid penalty for your sins. I dont think you could logically connect the dots of what you are claiming about satan and what your verses suggest you believe about atonement. Either Satan is responsible in some way for sin or we are responsible ( individually) for our own sins and satan though maybe an instigator, is not responsible for our sins.

The price has been paid through Jesus...but for what, why, and to whom has it been paid...

Did Jesus sacrificed himself, pay a huge lump sum, to Satan, NO! Is the sacrifice because of Satan? A simple yes and no wont due to this question.

Satan is identity is about actively pursuing people to cause disharmony, hatred, and destruction within God's creation...He is the tempter. But Jesus did not do this to make the Accuser be silent...

Instead, the weight of our sin or disharmony we have caused within God's creation would have resulted in God's judgment on us...punishing us to death. But God made a way for humans to return to his way of being. It is through confession, turning away, and making a sacrifice for the injustice we have caused. Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice that lumped all the sacrifices that could have been preformed for our intentional and accidental disobedience to his purpose of being.

Now, the Accusser can and will still say we have sinned, but his weight on that arguement to God and his justice is absent. Therefore, God's mercy is the final word for people who confess, strongly turn away, and now our living out his way is our living sacrifice as a sign of Jesus sacrifice because he taught us the way and brought the punishment on himself for us.

 

[LilLamb219]

Mr. Norwood, in 1 John 3:10 "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right his not a child of God: nor is anyone who does not love his brother."

I agree with you that there is no equality between God and Satan, and that we are slaves to sin.

Mr. Wheaton wrote:

Either Jesus stops satan and allows direct communication with human and God OR Jesus paid the penalty for your sins that you (and not Satan) are responsible for the penalty..

You worded it strangely, especially the part about Jesus stopping Satan and allows direct communication with human and God? What's the about? You don't make a lot of sense.

 

[*~DJ~*]

The expanded meaning of atonement is to appease, pacify, placate, forgive, pardon, purge, put off, expiate, reconcile, disannul, cleanse or bring mercy by covering. The theological definition is the bringing mercy by the covering and thereby cleansing of our sin by the shed and applied blood of Christ, appeasing the just rath of God on sin and rendering the believing sinner pardoned, purged and forgiven of sin and reconsiled to God.

Satan is real and not equal to God. Satan is responsible for his role as tempter to man and will be punished for it. Man is responsible for his role as sinner. If man does not take the atonement offered by Jesus, then man will be punished for his sin.

Satan cannot attack a believer without permission from God. We see the proof of this in Job.