Athena returned the Spear

AV1611VET said:

130

Now I think you guys are just trying to rile me --- and it's working --- so I'll just go to read-only until I see an honest answer.

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Why did you show me that link?? I only made the point that the OT does not forbid rape unless it is considered adultery. I frankly have long found it to be a problem with using the OT as a guide to criminal law.

AV, I chose to say Numbers 31 rather than Numbers 31: 18-19 for a reason: I feel context is most important here.

First, we know that the Jews faced the adult men in combat and beat them, then they rounded up all the women, and children (both child men and child women). We know that young virgins alone numbers over 32,000 (see Numbers 31:32), so we can make a pretty reasonable guess that the total number of non-virgins was in the tens of thousands as well.

Now, they decided to slaughter every single one of the helpless non-virgin girls and all boys regardless of virginity, right in front of the eyes of the virgin girls- though to be fair, this command came from moses, not directly from God (at least the bible does not make such a claim), but Moses decided to keep alive the virgin girls.

So, we are faced with the question of why keep them- and we have several options.

A) They wanted to have sex with the virgin girls. You would want virgin ones because they are usually both STD free and are unlikely to be holding a child from the 'other' tribe claiming he is a Jew from the captors.

B) They wanted them as slaves - though we can rule this option fairly safely out as there is no reason to only choose virgin girls... boys, regardless of virginity, would be considered better slaves for most cases (hence why they cost more)

C) They wanted to have compassion- We can rule this option out because, once again, compassion would not involve slaughtering 4 year old boys.

Or D) Another option that I have not thought off.

From this, we can see that they wanted the virgins for sexual purposes.



Once this is established, we then decide if they engaged in consential sex or in rape. This is not actually addressed in the bible however we have a good reason to assume it was rape, namely that these young women just saw their mothers, sisters, and young brothers slaughtered, defenseless, by their captors. This would naturally cause the vast majority of them to hate their captors, let alone not wish to have sex with them.

Sure, some of them would be willing for whatever reasons (perhaps due to desperation, depression, or apathy induced from the war-crimes of the Jews) but certainly not all. We are not given a hint to what happened to the virgins that said no, but we can fairly safely assume that they were not released to run free (otherwise why not let the non-virgin girls go free from the get go?) So they were either raped or killed.

If they are killed, I think we can still assume that it was rape for the ones that were not because they saw the first wave get killed, and if you have an option of 'have sex with me or die' you will lie, saying you accept, when in reality you are just engaging in the act to save your life- I would hope we can agree that this is still rape.


I hope that answers your question about how I got this view?



Btw, your response that it was virigns because of STD protection only works if they entended to have sex with them. If you do not plan to have sex with them, why on earth would you worryif they have STD's or not?

AV1611VET said:

For indentured servitude and Temple service.

You do realize that intermarriage was forbidden, don't you?

I realize in this day and age of mixed marriages that it might be a little hard to grasp (and no, I'm not against mixed marriages), but please, if you are going to critique a passage in the Bible, at least show me some evidence you're taking the context into consideration.

Otherwise, I suspect you're either getting it off the Internet, or it's being taught to you under the table.

The DNA lines of these 12 tribes was absolutely necessary when it came to determining who possessed whose land?

You wouldn't want someone from Gad marrying someone from Issachar, then claiming right to each other's territory.

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Where in the bible does it say that a female slave has to be a virgin?

Also your theory that they were to be slaves does't hold up, unless you can show me a verse that says little boys can't be slaves.

AV1611VET said:

No, I didn't realize that.

Maybe translation,chapter and verse would help me see what you see.Because of STD's.

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So the little boys had stds and that's why they were killed?

Do you make this up as you go along?

AV1611VET said:

130

Now I think you guys are just trying to rile me --- and it's working --- so I'll just go to read-only until I see an honest answer.

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Funny how the bible is literally true except when it gets ugly, then its run and hide time.

Hespera said:

Funny how the bible is literally true except when it gets ugly, then its run and hide time.

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No, no, no. It was a different "Dispensation" back then. Also, God had declared a state of Martial Law, in which the 10 Commandments were temporarily suspended.

Judges 14:17: "Heed thee The Lord's Word in the days of Judah. The Lord hath declared Martial Law, so thou may killeth the Lord's enemies and smite their boy children."

Split Rock said:

No, no, no. It was a different "Dispensation" back then. Also, God had declared a state of Martial Law, in which the 10 Commandments were temporarily suspended.

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I've always wondered what they would have said at Jesus' trials when they mocked Him, and even wondered why they would want to mock Him; but after coming here, I can honestly say, "Now I know."

AV1611VET said:

I've always wondered what they would have said at Jesus' trials when they mocked Him, and even wondered why they would want to mock Him; but after coming here, I can honestly say, "Now I know."

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Yes, AVET. You are just like Jesus.

AV! since you "know" will you tell us? Script?

AV, are you satisfied with my answer or do you disagree with it?

AV1611VET said:

I've always wondered what they would have said at Jesus' trials when they mocked Him, and even wondered why they would want to mock Him; but after coming here, I can honestly say, "Now I know."

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Ha

AV1611VET said:

I've always wondered what they would have said at Jesus' trials when they mocked Him, and even wondered why they would want to mock Him; but after coming here, I can honestly say, "Now I know."

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Are you the New Jesus for our times?

shinbits said:

Not at all. The nations killed in the Bible were sacrificing children. Big difference from simply killing for any reason, and "justifying" it with God.

Try again.

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Hmm So the Jews killed all of these peoples children because those people were killing some of thier own children? Sounds like the Jews were the greater of 2 evils in this case

Soul Searcher said:

Hmm So the Jews killed all of these peoples children because those people were killing some of thier own children? Sounds like the Jews were the greater of 2 evils in this case

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Soul Searcher, if you would have been Moses back then, and God told you to have it done --- what would you have done?

Is that what they teach at military academy?

In wartime, you're supposed to argue with the reconnaissance team?

I would suspect that I was loosing my mind or the devil was playing tricks on me. Either way I would not do it and would try to stop others from doing it as well.

ETA I have no idea why the last 2 sentences appear in that post.

Soul Searcher said:

I would suspect that I was loosing my mind or the devil was playing tricks on me. Either way I would not do it and would try to stop others from doing it as well.

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Interesting.

There's a term for that: insurrection.

AV sez.... Originally Posted by Soul Searcher

Hmm So the Jews killed all of these peoples children because those people were killing some of thier own children? Sounds like the Jews were the greater of 2 evils in this case
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Soul Searcher, if you would have been Moses back then, and God told you to have it done --- what would you have done?

Is that what they teach at military academy?

In wartime, you're supposed to argue with the reconnaissance team? QUOTE/////////////////

H sez..
this is like the excuse for attacking the compound in Waco and everyone is killed... that they were "abusing' children in there. Anyone who cant see that the claim there, or in the bible is anything but a disgusting excuse for wanton killing, BLAME THE VICTIM, is nor just willfully blind but morally culpable.

Soul Searcher said:

ETA I have no idea why the last 2 sentences appear in that post.

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God was Moses' reconnaissance team.

He told Moses who to hit, when to hit, and where they were.