Atheists: Why don't you steal, rape, pillage, etc?

[katerinah1947]

Wow!!!

Hi,
Agreed. However, I am still holding out hope.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

 

[essentialsaltes]

The weird thing about Atheists is they always use religious arguments ("don't hurt the weak", "I'm a good person", etc.)

Where exactly is the religion in those arguments?

What logical arguments can you have for not stealing a car if you know you can get away with it? Or robbing a bank? Or kidnapping the women you want who rejects you?

I'm not sure it's a logical argument exactly, but I think those acts are wrong.

 

[True Scotsman]

My point is Evolution. Animals kill other animals for territory, rape their females. The strong crush the weak, which helps the species improve.

The weird thing about Atheists is they always use religious arguments ("don't hurt the weak", "I'm a good person", etc.) instead of logical arguments like evolution, euthanizing the weak/burdens on society, etc.

Another thing is they say they are "good" people often, and isn't good a construct of religion? If you are Atheist then there is no "good" or "evil". i.e. Atheists saying Hitler is an "evil monster" make no sense. Or do you atheists not believe in Evolution? Are you against euthanizing the elderly or handicapped?

What logical arguments can you have for not stealing a car if you know you can get away with it? Or robbing a bank? Or kidnapping the women you want who rejects you?

Evolution is a natural process, not a moral code. We have evolved a brain which has the ability to form concepts of what is good and what is bad based on the effect it has on Human life and happiness. I don't do the things you mentioned and many more because I hold life as the standard of value and all of those things have a negative effect on life. Not only on the lives of others but ultimately on my own life and happiness. Is this really so hard to understand?

 

[madaz]

If I was 100% sure He didn't exist. Yes. Of course. Why not?

Why not? Wow!

 

[True Scotsman]

Being a good person has it's own rewards.

You know, I think this is the best, most succinct answer I have ever seen to this oft asked question. Do you mind if I use it sometime. There you go OP. There is nothing to be gained by evil even though you seem to think there is.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

My point is Evolution. Animals kill other animals for territory, rape their females. The strong crush the weak, which helps the species improve.

Such an adorable childlike understanding. You must watch a lot of Frank Turek.

The weird thing about Atheists is they always use religious arguments ("don't hurt the weak", "I'm a good person", etc.)

Wha-

instead of logical arguments like evolution, euthanizing the weak/burdens on society, etc.

No. This is pretty illogical. This borderlines sociopathic thinking actually. Are you a sociopath?

Another thing is they say they are "good" people often, and isn't good a construct of religion?

If you are Atheist then there is no "good" or "evil". i.e. Atheists saying Hitler is an "evil monster" make no sense.

I'm still laughing... next point (Godwin's law broken in the first post)

Or do you atheists not believe in Evolution? Are you against euthanizing the elderly or handicapped?

You're really disturbed lol I don't know what to say other than laugh at you. You're arguing with a complete straw man and you didn't even knock him down. It's like watching a 5 year old enrolled in karate class get mad at the instructor.

What logical arguments can you have for not stealing a car if you know you can get away with it? Or robbing a bank? Or kidnapping the women you want who rejects you?

If I could "get away" with stealing a car I still wouldn't do it. I don't want my own car stolen.

Robbing a bank is taking people's money so I don't want mine stolen so yes I wouldn't take others.

What on Earth would I kidnap a woman for? If she doesn't want me there's other women in the world. It sounds like you've contemplated that one buddy.

This was a great post, well worth the read 11/10

 

[True Scotsman]

My point is Evolution. Animals kill other animals for territory, rape their females. The strong crush the weak, which helps the species improve.

I think you are missing a crucial distinctions here between other animals and Humans. We are the only animal which possesses a volitional consciousness. Oh other animals may possess some rudimentary volition but nothing like we have. Morality is a set of chosen principles to guide our choices and actions. We need morality because unlike other life forms we are not born knowing what is good for us and what is bad. Animals act automatically to further their own life but we have to discover the values we need to survive and this requires a conceptual faculty. So comparing Human morality to animal instincts is not appropriate. Animals don't really have a choice about how they behave but we most certainly do. Other animals survive by adapting to their environment but we survive by adapting our environment to us. We have an entirely different mode of survival than every other species. When we act like animals do and kill each other and rape and crush the weak, our species is not improved. It is by reason that we improve.

 

[K9_Trainer]

Morality IS something that has evolved amongst humanity. There have been social studies where a series of moral dilemmas have been asked to people of many, many different cultures and ethnicities and religions, and they ALL answer the same way. Even cultures that have had very little contact with the western world (they were asked a context appropriate version of the same questions). To me, this says that we all look at morality similarly. That there is a moral standard that has absolutely nothing to do with religion. And it's an evolved trait.

I'll also take a moment to address the OP's misunderstanding of evolution and natural selection. The whole "survival of the fittest" is sort of a misnomer. It is not the best way to describe the process, even though I believe it was Darwin himself that coined the phrase. Evolution is merely a change in gene frequency of a population over time. It can even be incidental change, genetic drift. It's not about destroying things that are weaker than you, or taking advantage of others. It's not blundering and pillaging like savages. Natural selection is the selection for traits that strengthen your ability to make offspring. In some species, sure, it's combat. But in others, it's displays. And yet in others, it's cooperation and maintaining social ties. Sometimes it even means death of an individual for the sake of offspring. In the mantis, the male usually gets eaten during mating by the female. The reason for this is because he has a ganglia in his neck (like a primitive brain, it's a bundle of nerves). When severed, it causes all of his sperm to be released. This is good for his fecundity, but it increases his ability to make babies. And his body serves as a meal to strengthen the female. So instead of trying to get away, they let it happen. Even altruism can be naturally selected for.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

We need morality because unlike other life forms we are not born knowing what is good for us and what is bad. Animals act automatically to further their own life but we have to discover the values we need to survive and this requires a conceptual faculty.

Weirdly enough I think it's because of evolution that we've actually lost this ability. There's no doubt that in early hunter gatherer societies they seemed to have a much better idea of what needed to be done just by instinct alone. And as society progressed we began to rely less on our natural instinct and more in the safety of community and shared knowledge to survive. Effectively eliminating most of our natural survival skills. What do you think?

 

[True Scotsman]

Weirdly enough I think it's because of evolution that we've actually lost this ability. There's no doubt that in early hunter gatherer societies they seemed to have a much better idea of what needed to be done just by instinct alone. And as society progressed we began to rely less on our natural instinct and more in the safety of community and shared knowledge to survive. Effectively eliminating most of our natural survival skills. What do you think?

I think you're right. I think we also lost the tools we needed to survive like other animals do because we evolved a better tool, our reasoning mind. Other animals chase down their pray and kill it with fangs and claws. We don't do so well at that but we invent spears, then bows and arrows, then black powder rifles. We simply don't need the claws and fangs any more.

 

[Oafman]

Are you suggesting that, if you didn't believe in God, you would do those things?

If I was 100% sure He didn't exist. Yes. Of course. Why not?

This is a sociopathic statement. You have no regard whatsoever for how your actions might affect other people.

No, I only don't do it because I have faith. Why resist taking what you want, if not for religion?

Most of us have an instinctive concern for the welfare of our fellow man. So we don't 'take what we want' because of how it would affect the person from whom we're taking it. To state as you did that you only don't do so because you fear divine punishment, and not because of how it would affect the victim, again points to sociopathy.

If you actually mean what you wrote in this thread, I think you should seek medical advice.

 

[quatona]

What is morality?

Irrelevant. The term wasn´t part of your question, and it wasn´t part of my response. Remember: you asked "Why don´t you", and I responded to that question.

Don't push your cult religion on me!

Could you show me where I pushed anything on you? If you ask a question about my convictions it should be obvious that my convictions are showing up in the conversation.

There is no such thing as "moral" actions and "immoral" actions if you are Atheist.

Well, I don´t see how this follows from anything the term "atheist" tells you.

But let´s assume for a moment your statement were correct: My response wasn´t "because it´s immoral". So what´s your point? Did you ask questions because you wanted to consider the responses, or did you ask questions just to ignore them and repeat what you already said?

There are only actions. Actions which you in your subjective view like or dislike.

Here you are back to telling me what my convictions are. There aren´t many things I am an expert in, but when it comes to identifying my convictions I am the world´s leading expert. So please. Either you listen to the responses, or this thread is pointless.
However, we might get somewhere once you´d comprehend that "likes and dislikes" aren´t necessarily spontaneous "want have´s". In my convictions there´s a deeper understanding of the interdepence of my and others´ happiness. I do know 1. that objects, wealth, etc. don´t make me happy, and 2. making others unhappy will sooner or later make me unhappy. That´s the short version.

Only a religion can declare something so absolute as "moral".

Everybody can declare anything. Talk is cheap. This isn´t any different for religious declarations than for non-religious declarations.

As for the stealing cars part, I was giving random examples. Imagine instead the thing you desire most to do, but which would harm others.

I´m sorry, but where I come from this is unimaginable. There´s a bigger picture, you know.

Maybe you really want a girl who rejects you.

Why the heck would I want a girl that rejects me? That wouldn´t make any sense at all. How could I be happy with a girl that rejects me?

Maybe you have kids who you dislike and are a burden on you and so you want to give them up to adoption or abort them, etc.

It seems like you are assuming I am left with my most spontaneous and instant emotions. I am not. I do know that every action I take will have an effect on me.

Maybe you want revenge on a cheating ex....

Obviously I have a fundamentally different idea of human relationships than I have. Holding grudges, seeking revenge etc. aren´t doing me any good. When I harm others I am harming myself. This is my experience, and since I am not a sociopath but gifted with empathy and compassion, it appears to be quite logical to me.

maybe you want money and imagine a wallet full of cash is on the ground with the ID inside would you return it? why?

Well, no matter how many examples you ask me about, the answer will always be the same. I have given it several times now.
If you want to have a conversation about my convictions, attitudes, views, feelings (which the fact that you started the thread with a question initially suggested), you better consider my answers.
The other option is: You keep talking to yourself. In which case my contributions here are unnecessary.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

If I was 100% sure He didn't exist. Yes. Of course. Why not?


No, I only don't do it because I have faith. Why resist taking what you want, if not for religion?

Whoa. Uh. Do I need to call the police?

I was merely poking fun and actually comparing your arguments as sociopathic with hopes that you would see that and see the errors in your judgement.

But you might actually be a real sociopath

 

[quatona]

Atheists: Why don't you steal, rape, pillage, etc?

I´ll make it simple for you.
The answer is basically the same as to the question: "Since you don´t believe in a God, why don´t you cut off your left leg because you have a pain in your toe.": Because I don´t want to, because I know it will make things worse for me.
Another analogy comes to mind: "Why don´t you [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] in the pool you´re swimming in, even if you could get away with it?": Because I don´t like to swim in pee.
Hope this helps.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I'm not fighting imaginary foes. You're right in front of me.

What's weird is how Atheists are so defensive and so QUICK to try and prove how Judeo-Christian they are (culturally) and so quick to try and produce explanations that they have zero desire in their bodies to steal, rape, get revenge, get rich at other's expense, etc. when it makes ZERO logical sense. Instead you start talking about chemicals and odd excuses like that as if you are powerless over your own bodies which "make" you be good people and not that you've embraced Judeo-Christian values of the religion you hate so much.

Seriously if you lived in the Viking culture or a different culture and saw vast gold riches you can plunder, a beautiful woman you can take as your concubine, or even today if you can steal a car you want and get away with it, rob a bank, or kidnap someone you desire, etc. You are quick to claim you wouldn't do it.

It's like Atheists are so eager to prove how Christian they are (in a moral values way).

It baffles me because when I was Atheist (luckily I was only atheist a few months before I had a Road to Damascus event literally flash of light and God spoke to me) I did a lot of bad things, assaulted a lot of people, methodically planned to do bad things, etc. Again, these things are "bad" or "evil" in a Judeo-Christian sense, but if you are Atheist nothing is "evil". We're just animals then, and it's just that lion taking the enemy turf and raping the females, so why not a human raping the woman he wants and taking the stuff he wants, etc.

Yet Atheists act like missionaries trying to convert Christians away from their faith and towards Atheism as if it somehow imbues superior values. That's what really confuses me because I've seen the opposite in my own life. I could see if Atheists admit religion stabilizes society and they never try to push their views, but they don't they try and criticize believing religions as harmful and promote their own religion of dis-belief.

Just because you were a jerk as an atheist doesn't mean that all atheists must be jerks.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Another thing is they say they are "good" people often, and isn't good a construct of religion?

No.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

I'm not fighting imaginary foes. You're right in front of me.

Yes, what an intimidating foe indeed.

What's weird is how Atheists are so defensive and so QUICK to try and prove how Judeo-Christian they are (culturally)

Explain what you're talking about

and so quick to try and produce explanations that they have zero desire in their bodies to steal, rape, get revenge, get rich at other's expense, etc. when it makes ZERO logical sense.

Because I have no interest in doing any of those activities. How is this hard to understand?

Instead you start talking about chemicals and odd excuses like that as if you are powerless over your own bodies which "make" you be good people and not that you've embraced Judeo-Christian values of the religion you hate so much.

What is really wrong with you? Because this type of behavior you're exhibiting is one of two: Sociopathic or Guilt

Seriously if you lived in the Viking culture or a different culture and saw vast gold riches you can plunder, a beautiful woman you can take as your concubine, or even today if you can steal a car you want and get away with it, rob a bank, or kidnap someone you desire, etc. You are quick to claim you wouldn't do it.

This sounds very biblical.

It's like Atheists are so eager to prove how Christian they are

(in a moral values way).

You mean how not messed up we are?

It baffles me because when I was Atheist (luckily I was only atheist a few months before I had a Road to Damascus event literally flash of light and God spoke to me)

...right

I did a lot of bad things, assaulted a lot of people, methodically planned to do bad things, etc.

So you're a horrible person. What does that have to do with being an atheist? And just as I suspected, you became a theist out of guilt and fear. You're a real nut case.

Again, these things are "bad" or "evil" in a Judeo-Christian sense,

Code of Hammurabi outlawed this stuff way before Christianity was a thing.

but if you are Atheist nothing is "evil". We're just animals then, and it's just that lion taking the enemy turf and raping the females, so why not a human raping the woman he wants and taking the stuff he wants, etc.

You're insane. What you are is a coward. You hide behind things to validate you. You hid behind atheism to excuse your deplorable behavior. Now you hide behind theism as a means to hide your shame from people and sedate yourself because you have no self control. You are the wolf in sheeps clothing among your crowd. How dare you cast any judgement upon me? If it took threat of eternal torture and pain to keep you from being a heartless savage rather than your own convictions and self control then all that means is that you want nothing more than to continue to do those things and you've changed none. You're still the savage you always were and nothing can change that fact. And no matter how much you pray, no matter how much you beg and grovel, you'll always be what you are and remember what you've done.

But tell me more about how much of a monster I am.

Yet Atheists act like missionaries trying to convert Christians away from their faith and towards Atheism

I do no such thing. We only want you to be reasonable or at least not assert things in reality that are unfounded.

as if it somehow imbues superior values.

I don't know who you address here.

That's what really confuses me

Oh from what we all see you're very confused indeed.

because I've seen the opposite in my own life. I could see if Atheists admit religion stabilizes society

Name one society that is based upon religion that hasn't fallen or isn't in some sort of turmoil with its own people.

and they never try to push their views, but they don't they try and criticize believing religions as harmful and promote their own religion of dis-belief.

Childish.

 

[HitchSlap]

You really love your Ad Hominem. It's like your third pointless post that only had Ad Hominem in it and added nothing to the discussion. I see finally an Atheist who embraces my point, you just like to pillage the internet (derive pleasure from insulting others?) instead of causing harm in the real world.

I'll keep it simple for you, skippy, both you and I derive our morals from the same place.

 

[HitchSlap]

Hi,
That was never the question. The question is can you say that there is no possibility that a god exists out there, that is responsible for all of this?
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

Then you concede that there are atheists? Good.

And yes, one can maximally say, there is no possibility that a god/s exist.

 

[HitchSlap]

You know, I think this is the best, most succinct answer I have ever seen to this oft asked question. Do you mind if I use it sometime. There you go OP. There is nothing to be gained by evil even though you seem to think there is.

Of course you can. I'm pretty sure this is a paraphrase of Sam Harris, maybe?