Atheists: Why don't you steal, rape, pillage, etc?

[Givemeareason]

It's perfectly normal....and documented....how people persecute their own failings, in others.

Note how smokers who quit, are an example.

No again. I am referring to a very clannish group of people who views themselves as being persecuted and are bunkering up against the world in the misguided fear that if the Bible were not literally word for word absolute truth their whole view of God and the world would collapse. And as for smoking I quit smoking 35 years ago and still make special effort to allow smokers their right to smoke even when they are riding in my vehicle. In the meantime however this group I am referring to is doing all it can to deprive others of their rights and turn our great democracy into a theocracy such that everyone will have to conform to their views. I hope that is more clear what I am referring to now.

 

[Eudaimonist]

It's hilarious that Atheists like wasting the only life they got on philosophy, a subject that only has objective meaning if there is an Afterlife.

What is "objective meaning"? And why does that depend on an "Afterlife"?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[variant]

The entire universe is "energy" which will at one point expend itself and disappear.

First law of thermodynamics. Energy doesn't disapear, it may dissipate.

Yes, let's label all arguments to avoid having to consider the possible merit in them. And I didn't drop it. I just recognize that Atheists here are all extremely stubborn and incapable of understanding that it is not evolutionarily beneficial for us to have a society that props up the weak, i.e. the welfare state, at the expense of the strong. Or which refuses to take land/resources from abroad like the Roman Republic most governments today are based on did (we engage in altruistic wars because of our religion).

We're not stubborn for not accepting ideas that are incorrect or misguided.

Evolutionary theory does not demand we act like barbarians, and in fact the modern age with less of this activity has been the most prosperous in human history (in terms of evolutionary 'fitness') but religion often does promote acting like a barbarian if you want to actually read your Bible.

It just seems like I'm "dropping" it, because I'm too busy to constantly field questions from the horde of Atheist missionaries here... I got a life. It's hilarious that Atheists like wasting the only life they got on philosophy, a subject that only has objective meaning if there is an Afterlife.

It's surprising that you posit a group of people who are likely to think that meaning is a human invention and not understand why they might gravitate toward a subject that discusses just what meaning is and how it is determined...

The lack of understanding shown of your own understanding is odd...

Apparently you think my time is so short that the only worthwhile thing I should spend my time on is pillaging and generally acting like a barbarian...... Because limiting a resource should make us more likely to use it as poorly and brutally as possible???

 

[outsidethecamp]

I hate it when people find out I'm an atheist and say, "But you're such a nice guy!" Yeah, what were you expecting me to be?

Even very "nice" people are sinners. Christ is the only remedy for all of us.

My guess (and it is just an intuitive type of guess) is that those who deny God (atheists) or fashion a god in their own image (humanists, pseudo-Christians), will not be able to live consistently, morally, and contentedly while attempting to remove the true God completely from their lives, whether by denying Him or creating their own.

God reveals Himself inside of us, in our conscience, and outside in everything, through His general revelation, and all who deny this, will find themselves trying to hold down this truth in unrighteousness, like a spring ... it takes work! The minute you let down your guard, God will be on the rise, whether they like it or not.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Even very "nice" people are sinners. Christ is the only remedy for all of us.

My guess (and it is just an intuitive type of guess) is that those who deny God (atheists) or fashion a god in their own image (humanists, pseudo-Christians), will not be able to live consistently, morally, and contentedly while attempting to remove the true God completely from their lives, whether by denying Him or creating their own.

God reveals Himself inside of us, in our conscience, and outside in everything, through His general revelation, and all who deny this, will find themselves trying to hold down this truth in unrighteousness, like a spring ... it takes work! The minute you let down your guard, God will be on the rise, whether they like it or not.

How much work does it take for you to not be a Muslim? Are you suppressing Islam in unrighteousness?

 

[Dave RP]

My point is Evolution. Animals kill other animals for territory, rape their females. The strong crush the weak, which helps the species improve.

The weird thing about Atheists is they always use religious arguments ("don't hurt the weak", "I'm a good person", etc.) instead of logical arguments like evolution, euthanizing the weak/burdens on society, etc.

Another thing is they say they are "good" people often, and isn't good a construct of religion? If you are Atheist then there is no "good" or "evil". i.e. Atheists saying Hitler is an "evil monster" make no sense. Or do you atheists not believe in Evolution? Are you against euthanizing the elderly or handicapped?

What logical arguments can you have for not stealing a car if you know you can get away with it? Or robbing a bank? Or kidnapping the women you want who rejects you?

This has been an interesting discussion, I'll admit I've not read all 18 or so pages of it but here's my point of view.

I do not steal, rape or murder because I don't want to, I abhor violence and would never do anything to deliberately hurt anyone. I behave in this way because I believe it is in the best interests of society as a whole that everyone looks after each other. I don't believe in euthanasia, I would not want my mother killed when she reaches a certain age, and I wouldn't want to be killed myself at old age. I would not steal someone else's property, my neighbours ass (as it were) because I would not expect my neighbour (Muslim, Jew, Atheist, Agnostic, Taoist, Native American tradition, Druid or whatever....) to steal my goods. Society is not best served by selfish anarchy.

I do not need the fear of hell to behave in this way, I am not doing my best to help play my part in a fair and just society because some book tells me I ought to, I do so because it is in everyone's best interests that we do so. That is how evolution has made us. I do not see any better or worse behaviour from all the different faith groups in London, or the majority who have no faith.

By your argument, all the Christians would be being jolly nice to everyone, whilst everyone else was raping, stealing and murdering, and that is not happening.

 

[outsidethecamp]

This has been an interesting discussion, I'll admit I've not read all 18 or so pages of it but here's my point of view.

I do not steal, rape or murder because I don't want to, I abhor violence and would never do anything to deliberately hurt anyone. I behave in this way because I believe it is in the best interests of society as a whole that everyone looks after each other. I don't believe in euthanasia, I would not want my mother killed when she reaches a certain age, and I wouldn't want to be killed myself at old age. I would not steal someone else's property, my neighbours ass (as it were) because I would not expect my neighbour (Muslim, Jew, Atheist, Agnostic, Taoist, Native American tradition, Druid or whatever....) to steal my goods. Society is not best served by selfish anarchy.

I do not need the fear of hell to behave in this way, I am not doing my best to help play my part in a fair and just society because some book tells me I ought to, I do so because it is in everyone's best interests that we do so. That is how evolution has made us. I do not see any better or worse behaviour from all the different faith groups in London, or the majority who have no faith.

By your argument, all the Christians would be being jolly nice to everyone, whilst everyone else was raping, stealing and murdering, and that is not happening.

The very rich and the politically power commit heinous crimes but in such a sophisticated way now.

 

[Dave RP]

Even very "nice" people are sinners. Christ is the only remedy for all of us.

My guess (and it is just an intuitive type of guess) is that those who deny God (atheists) or fashion a god in their own image (humanists, pseudo-Christians), will not be able to live consistently, morally, and contentedly while attempting to remove the true God completely from their lives, whether by denying Him or creating their own.

God reveals Himself inside of us, in our conscience, and outside in everything, through His general revelation, and all who deny this, will find themselves trying to hold down this truth in unrighteousness, like a spring ... it takes work! The minute you let down your guard, God will be on the rise, whether they like it or not.

Hi, I think I live quite consistently, morally and very contentedly without any knowledge of God (in any of his various guises) in my life. Of course you may say that god (or one of them) is in my life and I just fail to recognise it, but all I can say is that I do not believe in god but still happily live a consistent and moral life.

I'm not sure in what way i would be trying to hold this truth down, as I don't feel myself in any way holding down any truth. I find enough wonder and awe in science and the natural world, and have never felt the need for a judging creator god.

Again, I really don't think I have a guard to let down, so I haven't felt god " on the rise".

The issue of debate is that you can only guess what atheists think and feel, as we can only guess how believers think and feel. You will never understand why atheists reject god, when to you it is so obvious that god is in you and in your life - whereas I can never understand how anyone could believe that a god exists and actually is involved in anyone's life. I therefore think your intuitive guess is wrong and (I can only speak for me) atheists are quite happy with their position.

 

[HerCrazierHalf]

Dave pretty much summed it up. Also I find the concept that a God is required in order to no commit evil acts to be really odd.

Wouldn't that imply that you are evil and but for the fear that you will be found out and punished? Then what happens if one day you believe God is ok with murder? Let's say that the devil tricks you or you interpret certain parts of the Old Testament as promoting murder.

 

[HerCrazierHalf]

***

Now just stop there.

'The weird thing about Atheists is they always use religious arguments ("don't hurt the weak", "I'm a good person", etc.) instead of logical arguments like evolution, euthanizing the weak/burdens on society'.

'Euthanize the weak' as a logical argument...everybody has read this, right?

And it is rather revealing admit those who hold this point of view. It implies that an overwhelming portion of the reason they themselves are not committing these acts either:
1) because of fear of eternal punishment or
2) someone else (God or their church) says so.

Why are evil acts treated as the default behaviors?

 

[FredVB]

I know many who are not believers, including many who were in my family, and atheist among them. There are among them indeed still those who are likable. We might call such good people, as they would. But believers are not generally called good people by others. Why is that? They are said by some to be hypocrites. This is with consideration of a higher standard, which believers generally often don't meet. It is not that others including atheists do meet such higher standard. But there is the higher standard of God's goodness. Believers, atheists, and others might often be good people in much the same way according to our standards in our society, but we don't meet the standard for goodness of God. The redemption from God is to bring believers to that through God's work with what they go through, and it can take their life in some cases, it is God's grace.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

My point is Evolution. Animals kill other animals for territory, rape their females. The strong crush the weak, which helps the species improve.The weird thing about Atheists is they always use religious arguments ("don't hurt the weak", "I'm a good person", etc.) instead of logical arguments like evolution, euthanizing the weak/burdens on society, etc.

Another thing is they say they are "good" people often, and isn't good a construct of religion? If you are Atheist then there is no "good" or "evil". i.e. Atheists saying Hitler is an "evil monster" make no sense. Or do you atheists not believe in Evolution? Are you against euthanizing the elderly or handicapped?

What logical arguments can you have for not stealing a car if you know you can get away with it? Or robbing a bank? Or kidnapping the women you want who rejects you?

Why should humans emulate predator prey relationships? Do they "self realise" this? If our essence (or lack of it) is placstic, mouldable culturally - why say we ought (logically to choose as preferable) snarl and roar?Thats the kind of stuff the 'devil' sells us, leading to paths away from life. Or, back to the jungle...

 

[GrimKingGrim]

Even very "nice" people are sinners. Christ is the only remedy for all of us.

What's the quote around the word nice for? Are you questioning the authenticity of nice people?

My guess (and it is just an intuitive type of guess) is that those who deny God (atheists) or fashion a god in their own image (humanists, pseudo-Christians),

I think all these generalizations are wrong

will not be able to live consistently, morally, and contentedly while attempting to remove the true God completely from their lives, whether by denying Him or creating their own.

Some people do not need a god to be a normal functioning member of society. Plenty of people go about their day not giving religion a thought once.

God reveals Himself inside of us, in our conscience, and outside in everything, through His general revelation

Respectfully, I disagree.

and all who deny this, will find themselves trying to hold down this truth in unrighteousness, like a spring ... it takes work!

Well growing up with a Christian mother there are certain things I habitually do that really don't care to change. I even say "God why?!" for comedic effect in inconvenient situations.

The minute you let down your guard, God will be on the rise, whether they like it or not.

Why can't he just rationally take my guard down with reason? More importantly why is my pathetic human guard so effective against a god?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I have to disagree with those who have said that humans are in some way special in their fundamental moral behaviour; there is clear evidence that other animals can be empathic, altruistic, have a sense of fairness, and have social groups with rules that transgressors are punished, ostracised, or exiled for breaking. Our morals and ethics may be more nuanced and sophisticated, but the evidence suggests they are built on a basic foundation shared by various other social animals. Social Darwinism may often go over the top, but game theory establishes a clear rationale for such behaviour in social groups, and recent studies in in-group and out-group behaviour suggests a clear selective advantage in the long term for cooperation within groups and competition between groups, again consistent with an evolutionary basis.

Just a few examples: the Moral Lives of Animals, Fairness & Morality in Chimps, and even rats show altruistic behaviour.

 

[Oafman]

/thread

 

[jayem]

Atheists: Why don't you steal, rape, pillage, etc?

Because that's what religious people do. Especially to people who have a different religion, and think they're enacting God's will on unbelievers.

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
---Blaise Pascal

 

[paulm50]

Atheists: Why don't you steal, rape, pillage, etc?

Because that's what religious people do. Especially to people who have a different religion, and think they're enacting God's will on unbelievers.

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
---Blaise Pascal

Some times that do it because god told them to. Today some did, tomorrow more will, all saying the same as Joshua told his troops. And priest told WW2 soldiers, god is on your side.

 

[jayem]

Some times that do it because god told them to. Today some did, tomorrow more will, all saying the same as Joshua told his troops.

Still happens. Remember Paul Hill, James Kopp, and Scott Roeder? All claimed to be devout Christians, carrying out God's commands.

Few things in the world are more dangerous than a religious fanatic who thinks he's doing God's will.

 

[paulm50]

Still happens. Remember Paul Hill, James Kopp, and Scott Roeder? All claimed to be devout Christians, carrying out God's commands.

Few things in the world are more dangerous than a religious fanatic who thinks he's doing God's will.

Most Christians have left this insanity behind, now it's the haven for people who are mad. In the Middle East we see a bible used much as we did, as a tool for leaders to grab power.