Atheists: Why don't you steal, rape, pillage, etc?

[Ken-1122]

First of all, NO ONE leads a "good moral life". They lie and hide their vileness as I was explaining with the previous points. To understand this, use math.

I think you are confusing good and moral with perfect. Though nobody may be perfect, IMO plenty of people live good and moral lives.

Ken

 

[Archaeopteryx]

*sigh* please read the first post before you comment. The whole point of this thread was about how it is logical for atheists to take what they want if they can get away with it.

Yes, that point was addressed already.

And then he tried to mention that atheists are more succesful, so I pointed out almost all of the top 50 billionaires are theists or agnostic,

Agnosticism and atheism are not mutually exclusive categories.

and then I discovered the ONE atheist, George Soros, proves the point of this thread: he chose to commit "economic war crimes" as some called it, to earn billions in profit for himself by harming entire nations. I was pointing out he was being entirely logical as an atheist (and that almost NONE of the other top 50 who are theist and agnostic engaged in that practice even though they could earn billions and get away with it) and proving my point in the thread.

Your point was poorly reasoned to begin with. So it bears repeating: by what tortured logic are you able to draw a connection between Soros' actions and atheism?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

And you know it's funny how ChristianForums is dominated by atheists even though they are like 5% of the population they make up like 70% of this Christian forum. How can you explain that? It's like you are all missionaries for your anti-religion religion. Like something in your soul is driving you to have a desire to force your viewpoints onto others so you spend all day on the ChristianForums trying to convert Christians into Atheists... what irony!

Where did you obtain these stats from?

 

[bhsmte]

*sigh* please read the first post before you comment. The whole point of this thread was about how it is logical for atheists to take what they want if they can get away with it. And then he tried to mention that atheists are more succesful, so I pointed out almost all of the top 50 billionaires are theists or agnostic, and then I discovered the ONE atheist, George Soros, proves the point of this thread: he chose to commit "economic war crimes" as some called it, to earn billions in profit for himself by harming entire nations. I was pointing out he was being entirely logical as an atheist (and that almost NONE of the other top 50 who are theist and agnostic engaged in that practice even though they could earn billions and get away with it) and proving my point in the thread.

The energy you must have to expend to keep convincing yourself of these things and to ward off evidence that contradicts your beliefs, must be amazing.

 

[bhsmte]

And you know it's funny how ChristianForums is dominated by atheists even though they are like 5% of the population they make up like 70% of this Christian forum. How can you explain that? It's like you are all missionaries for your anti-religion religion. Like something in your soul is driving you to have a desire to force your viewpoints onto others so you spend all day on the ChristianForums trying to convert Christians into Atheists... what irony!

I mean seriously? 16,000 posts? 24,000 posts? On a Christian forum.... and it doesn't seem to be because you "like" Christians... so you are spending all that time on a forum to argue with people you don't like, basically to try and proselytize like a missionary... oh the irony!

Did you make these percentages up out of thin air?

 

[Ken-1122]

*sigh* please read the first post before you comment. The whole point of this thread was about how it is logical for atheists to take what they want if they can get away with it. And then he tried to mention that atheists are more succesful, so I pointed out almost all of the top 50 billionaires are theists or agnostic, and then I discovered the ONE atheist, George Soros, proves the point of this thread: he chose to commit "economic war crimes" as some called it, to earn billions in profit for himself by harming entire nations. I was pointing out he was being entirely logical as an atheist (and that almost NONE of the other top 50 who are theist and agnostic engaged in that practice even though they could earn billions and get away with it) and proving my point in the thread.

How do you know all those billionaires are theists or agnostic? Is this just an assumption? Bill Gates the worlds richest man has made it very clear that he was an atheist during several interviews; and when you consider the "Gates foundation" his attempt to give away his entire fortune to help mankind before he dies, (he has already given away over 1/3 of his fortune) and his constant attempt to get other billionaires to do the same, he has helped more than any charity; religious or otherwise. So how does his deeds fit into this thread?

Ken

 

[derGroßmütige]

How do you know all those billionaires are theists or agnostic? Is this just an assumption? Bill Gates the worlds richest man has made it very clear that he was an atheist during several interviews; and when you consider the "Gates foundation" his attempt to give away his entire fortune to help mankind before he dies, (he has already given away over 1/3 of his fortune) and his constant attempt to get other billionaires to do the same, he has helped more than any charity; religious or otherwise. So how does his deeds fit into this thread?
Ken

Bill Gates attends Church (whether or not he fully believes is up for debate but certainly no atheist! he used to say he was AGNOSTIC, not atheist) and Bill Gates even said giving a lot to charity is "kind of a religious belief" (since you are sacrificing self-interest for others, WHICH IS THE POINT OF MY THREAD!).

"The moral systems of religion, I think, are super important. We've raised our kids in a religious way; they've gone to the Catholic church that Melinda goes to and I participate in. I've been very lucky, and therefore I owe it to try and reduce the inequity in the world. And that's kind of a religious belief. I mean, it's at least a moral belief" - Bill Gates

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Bill Gates attends Church (whether or not he fully believes is up for debate but certainly no atheist! he used to say he was AGNOSTIC, not atheist) and Bill Gates even said giving a lot to charity is "kind of a religious belief" (since you are sacrificing self-interest for others, WHICH IS THE POINT OF MY THREAD!).

"The moral systems of religion, I think, are super important. We've raised our kids in a religious way; they've gone to the Catholic church that Melinda goes to and I participate in. I've been very lucky, and therefore I owe it to try and reduce the inequity in the world. And that's kind of a religious belief. I mean, it's at least a moral belief" - Bill Gates

And? What point are you driving at here? Atheists do good works. Theists do good works. Some atheists are jerks. Some theists are jerks. Is this news to you?

 

[Ken-1122]

Bill Gates attends Church (whether or not he fully believes is up for debate but certainly no atheist! he used to say he was AGNOSTIC, not atheist) and Bill Gates even said giving a lot to charity is "kind of a religious belief" (since you are sacrificing self-interest for others, WHICH IS THE POINT OF MY THREAD!).

"The moral systems of religion, I think, are super important. We've raised our kids in a religious way; they've gone to the Catholic church that Melinda goes to and I participate in. I've been very lucky, and therefore I owe it to try and reduce the inequity in the world. And that's kind of a religious belief. I mean, it's at least a moral belief" - Bill Gates

Bill Gates wife is Catholic and he may have changed his position as a result of their marriage, but he was talking about philanthropy before her.

Ken

 

[derGroßmütige]

And? What point are you driving at here? Atheists do good works. Theists do good works. Some atheists are jerks. Some theists are jerks. Is this news to you?

In absolute terms, yes. But if you compare, you lose: Secular people give far less than Religious people do.

According to the non-partisan Social Capital Community Benchmark Survey (by Harvard and other universities):
People who attend church weekly or more are 33% of the population but make up 52% of charitable donations (and this DESPITE us being POORER on average) and 45% of the nationwide time volunteered. Whereas the secular people (who either go to church either zero, once, or twice per year, or explicitly say they are atheist) are 26% of the population but only contribute 13% of the dollars to charity and 17% of the time volunteered.

The average annual giving among the religious is $2,210, whereas it is $642 among the secular.

And again, this is despite us being poorer on average!

The problem with many studies on the subject is they group people by what they "identify as" rather than by the truth. If you go based on people who actually believe and attend regularly (since it makes no sense to lump them in with the secularists who attend church only on Christmas/Easter), the differences are DRAMATIC.

 

[Davian]

Did you make these percentages up out of thin air?

Are not 75% of statistics made up on the spot?

 

[civilwarbuff]

My tastes have changed living in Milwaukee.

 

[Chany]

Could you please give an argument in which we should do good actions for the sake of goodness itself?

 

[civilwarbuff]

My tastes have changed living in Milwaukee.

Is that from Mader's? If so have a Franzikaner Dunkel for me (out of the boot of course).

 

[derGroßmütige]

Could you please give an argument in which we should do good actions for the sake of goodness itself?

No. Because that is circular logic. We do actions for a reason.

And maybe the problem of this thread is I tried to pose it in a way as to ask the Atheists here why THEY don't rape, pillage, steal, etc. And they all have emotional reasons as to why they don't. I was trying to point this out to them so they can see there is no logical reason to reject doing what Judeo-Christian societies view as "evil" when it is in their own self-interest if they can get away with it.

But perhaps a better question would have been: Imagine you're neck-down paralyzed and a person who has no emotions arrives who wants to kill you and take your stuff, and when you ask him to not do it, he asks "Why not?"

Because when I said "Why not?" before, all Atheists could say is "wow". No response. Because they have no answer. That was my entire point and the Atheists here basically conceded defeat at that point.

There is nothing an atheist can say to convince an emotionless person not to. That is my point even if I had to play Devil's Advocate to make it. They are only making appeals to emotion, not appeals to logic, because there is no logic in rejecting your own self-interest or pleasure when you don't have to. There is at least, *some* logic in refusing your own self-interest if you are convinced of the existence of an after-life where bad actions are punished.

But anyways, I really don't have the time for this, wish I could just delete this thread because it's really pointless since most of the atheists here won't "seriously consider" (literally in this thread said that) opposing people's views.

And I get it, when I was atheist I was 100% sure of myself, and in the end it took a spiritual experience for me to convert, and frankly people who become religious simply out of fear or just making a logical guess is not true faith so my thread is pointless since I made the mistake of trying to convince people using logic, rather than emotion. I just don't like using appeals to emotion (particularly empathy/guilt) as the Atheists here are doing like when they say "Being good has it's own rewards" ambiguously and ignoring the reverse "Being evil has it's own rewards" is far more true.

And ironically that "has it's own rewards" statement the Atheists here used comes from a British clergyman who said Virtue gives pleasure but that those without religion who basically act Virtuous only for pleasure's sake will "never get the pleasure because they can never have the virtue".

 

[quatona]

Atheists: Why don't you steal, rape, pillage, etc?

Just so I know what makes you even wonder:
What´s the reason you don´t steal, rape, pillage, etc?

 

[muichimotsu]

No. Because that is circular logic. We do actions for a reason.

And maybe the problem of this thread is I tried to pose it in a way as to ask the Atheists here why THEY don't rape, pillage, steal, etc. And they all have emotional reasons as to why they don't. I was trying to point this out to them so they can see there is no logical reason to reject doing what Judeo-Christian societies view as "evil" when it is in their own self-interest if they can get away with it.

But perhaps a better question would have been: Imagine you're neck-down paralyzed and a person who has no emotions arrives who wants to kill you and take your stuff, and when you ask him to not do it, he asks "Why not?"

Because when I said "Why not?" before, all Atheists could say is "wow". No response. Because they have no answer. That was my entire point and the Atheists here basically conceded defeat at that point.

There is nothing an atheist can say to convince an emotionless person not to. That is my point even if I had to play Devil's Advocate to make it. They are only making appeals to emotion, not appeals to logic, because there is no logic in rejecting your own self-interest or pleasure when you don't have to. There is at least, *some* logic in refusing your own self-interest if you are convinced of the existence of an after-life where bad actions are punished.

But anyways, I really don't have the time for this, wish I could just delete this thread because it's really pointless since most of the atheists here won't "seriously consider" (literally in this thread said that) opposing people's views.

And I get it, when I was atheist I was 100% sure of myself, and in the end it took a spiritual experience for me to convert, and frankly people who become religious simply out of fear or just making a logical guess is not true faith so my thread is pointless since I made the mistake of trying to convince people using logic, rather than emotion. I just don't like using appeals to emotion (particularly empathy/guilt) as the Atheists here are doing like when they say "Being good has it's own rewards" ambiguously and ignoring the reverse "Being evil has it's own rewards" is far more true.

And ironically that "has it's own rewards" statement the Atheists here used comes from a British clergyman who said Virtue gives pleasure but that those without religion who basically act Virtuous only for pleasure's sake will "never get the pleasure because they can never have the virtue".

You seem to think that there is no argument that is logical and not appealing to sentiments in regards to iyour own self interest, but I can posit one for you, even in regards to a borderline sociopath.

You don't wish to suffer, but in making someone else suffer, you can cause yourself to suffer in losing someone you can utilize for your self interest. Even if we're negating the notion of shared self interests, even a purely selfish person cannot logically justify killing someone that can pose both a threat and a net gain to them depending on circumstance.

If this sociopath is logical, they can still consider that in the long term, acting on self interest is not always beneficial and can, in fact, have negative results in regards to their overall self interests over time. Even getting away with murder doesn't mean that there isn't some change in time space that could affect your future endeavors. Unless you think you have absolute knowledge, killing someone, even in the situation of being quadraplegic, is not necessarily going to benefit your overall self interest, but only a particular desire in a singular context to eliminate someone.

Thinking logically, you can get around threats to your self interest with tactics, wit and knowledge and without wasting the potential of someone who can pursue their self interest as well, validating your whole position.

 

[muichimotsu]

I don't act virtuous because of the pleasure gained (that's acquired through interactions with those I share common interests with), but because it makes logical sense to not interfere with other's autonomy unless it is absolutely necessary.

 

[nonbeliever314]

I think we should ask religious groups why they rape, steal, pillage, etc..

 

[Chany]

No. Because that is circular logic. We do actions for a reason.

And maybe the problem of this thread is I tried to pose it in a way as to ask the Atheists here why THEY don't rape, pillage, steal, etc. And they all have emotional reasons as to why they don't. I was trying to point this out to them so they can see there is no logical reason to reject doing what Judeo-Christian societies view as "evil" when it is in their own self-interest if they can get away with it.

But perhaps a better question would have been: Imagine you're neck-down paralyzed and a person who has no emotions arrives who wants to kill you and take your stuff, and when you ask him to not do it, he asks "Why not?"

Because when I said "Why not?" before, all Atheists could say is "wow". No response. Because they have no answer. That was my entire point and the Atheists here basically conceded defeat at that point.

There is nothing an atheist can say to convince an emotionless person not to. That is my point even if I had to play Devil's Advocate to make it. They are only making appeals to emotion, not appeals to logic, because there is no logic in rejecting your own self-interest or pleasure when you don't have to. There is at least, *some* logic in refusing your own self-interest if you are convinced of the existence of an after-life where bad actions are punished.

But anyways, I really don't have the time for this, wish I could just delete this thread because it's really pointless since most of the atheists here won't "seriously consider" (literally in this thread said that) opposing people's views.

And I get it, when I was atheist I was 100% sure of myself, and in the end it took a spiritual experience for me to convert, and frankly people who become religious simply out of fear or just making a logical guess is not true faith so my thread is pointless since I made the mistake of trying to convince people using logic, rather than emotion. I just don't like using appeals to emotion (particularly empathy/guilt) as the Atheists here are doing like when they say "Being good has it's own rewards" ambiguously and ignoring the reverse "Being evil has it's own rewards" is far more true.

And ironically that "has it's own rewards" statement the Atheists here used comes from a British clergyman who said Virtue gives pleasure but that those without religion who basically act Virtuous only for pleasure's sake will "never get the pleasure because they can never have the virtue".

Then congratulations- you're a moral nihilist. If you can't make an argument why I ought to perform a good action because there is just something about good actions that makes them desirable, then you admit that you have no moral grounds. As I said before, the threat of punishment extends to any actions. For example, if God commands you to rape and mutilate a small child, then you ought to do this under your argument. This clearly is not morality; it is coerced behavior for one's own survival against a deity. There must be something about goodness itself that compels us to seek it; otherwise, you are a pure ethical egoist.

Which, ironic enough, is the position of at least two atheists on this board, one of which I am pretty sure was in this thread.