Atheists: Why don't you steal, rape, pillage, etc?

[paulm50]

My point is Evolution. Animals kill other animals for territory, rape their females. The strong crush the weak, which helps the species improve.

The weird thing about Atheists is they always use religious arguments ("don't hurt the weak", "I'm a good person", etc.) instead of logical arguments like evolution, euthanizing the weak/burdens on society, etc.

Another thing is they say they are "good" people often, and isn't good a construct of religion? If you are Atheist then there is no "good" or "evil". i.e. Atheists saying Hitler is an "evil monster" make no sense. Or do you atheists not believe in Evolution? Are you against euthanizing the elderly or handicapped?

What logical arguments can you have for not stealing a car if you know you can get away with it? Or robbing a bank? Or kidnapping the women you want who rejects you?

Read the evidence of Armies saying they were doing gods work. Doing all the things you mention. Some claiming god told them too. God has never been shy of killing anyone who upset him.

 

[JGG]

"Or put another way, if an adult hovers over a child you will observe one set of behaviors (group #1). However, if said child believes he isn't being watched and you observe him with hidden cameras you will see his "true" character (group #2). It is my belief that for the most part, religious types are group #1 whereas atheists are group #2."

When people misbehave while others are not looking is better?

You're telling us that the "true" character of atheists is what then? How does that compare to the "true" character of Christians?

 

[Steve Petersen]

http://www.amazon.com/The-Moral-Landscape-Science-Determine/dp/143917122X

 

[Ken-1122]

You're telling us that the "true" character of atheists is what then? How does that compare to the "true" character of Christians?

I think his point is, the true character of the Atheist is what you see; but the true character of the christian is unknown because the christian is convinced he is constantly being watched.
IOW when the atheist does good, he does it because he wants to do good; when the Christian does good, you don't know if he is doing it because he wants to do good, or if he only does it because he is convinced some guy in the sky is lookin' over his shoulder keepin' score.

Ken

 

[JGG]

I think his point is, the true character of the Atheist is what you see; but the true character of the christian is unknown because the christian is convinced he is constantly being watched.
IOW when the atheist does good, he does it because he wants to do good; when the Christian does good, you don't know if he is doing it because he wants to do good, or if he only does it because he is convinced some guy in the sky is lookin' over his shoulder keepin' score.

Ken

Somehow, I don't think that's his point. I'm sure he'll tell us when he replies.

 

[Ken-1122]

Somehow, I don't think that's his point. I'm sure he'll tell us when he replies.

If that's not his point; I can't wait to see what it is then.

K

 

[SkyWriting]

You're telling us that the "true" character of atheists is what then? How does that compare to the "true" character of Christians?

Both groups are known to turn toward God, or away from God. It could be said that Christians attempt to turn toward God more often, but that would be an overly broad generalization.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

Both groups are known to turn toward God, or away from God. It could be said that Christians attempt to turn toward God more often, but that would be an overly broad generalization.

I don't turn toward God. Not sure any atheist would.

 

[JGG]

Both groups are known to turn toward God, or away from God. It could be said that Christians attempt to turn toward God more often, but that would be an overly broad generalization.

Are you telling us that the average Christian is more moral than the average atheist?

That's not what I was referring to. I was quoting this:

"Or put another way, if an adult hovers over a child you will observe one set of behaviors (group #1). However, if said child believes he isn't being watched and you observe him with hidden cameras you will see his "true" character (group #2). It is my belief that for the most part, religious types are group #1 whereas atheists are group #2."

When people misbehave while others are not looking is better?

What you were saying is that with Christians you will see one set of behaviours, but never their true character, as they believe they are always being watched. With atheists, we see their "true" character because they don't believe they are being watched.

So if the two behaviours are essentially the same, as you suggest it is, then:
(a) when atheists are moral, it is because that is their "true" character, as they're not doing it just because they believe they are being watched.
(b) when Christians are moral, we only know that they believe they are being watched. We have no insight into their "true" character.
(c) when either an atheist or Christian is immoral we know that it is their "true" character, as the former does it not believing they are being watched, that latter does it despite believing they are being watched.

Based on this model we can see that atheists come in either moral or immoral character. Christians, as far as this model shows, might only come in the immoral character variety.

Is that the model you want to use, or should we scrap it?

As dgiharris was telling us, when atheists are moral it is because they want to be moral. When Christians are moral we can only surmise that it is because "an adult is hovering over them."

I'm not going to suggest one is "better", but you explain that one requires maturity.

 

[Eudaimonist]

It is perhaps worth noting that even when I play video games that give moral options, I tend to choose the "good" options.

For instance, in Mass Effect, I much prefer playing a Paragon (something like Captain Kirk) rather than a Renegade (a "bad ass"). This desire comes naturally to me.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[GrimKingGrim]

It is perhaps worth noting that even when I play video games that give moral options, I tend to choose the "good" options.

For instance, in Mass Effect, I much prefer playing a Paragon (something like Captain Kirk) rather than a Renegade (a "bad ass"). This desire comes naturally to me.


eudaimonia,

Mark

I do similar in Fallout. But I chose the bad path in my most recent playthrough. Collecting fingers and stealing.

 

[Eudaimonist]

I do similar in Fallout. But I chose the bad path in my most recent playthrough. Collecting fingers and stealing.

I did play a Renegade in Mass Effect once, but only because I wanted to see the content I was missing.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[SkyWriting]

Are you telling us that the average Christian is more moral than the average atheist?

(a) when atheists are moral, it is because that is their "true" character, as they're not doing it just because they believe they are being watched.
(b) when Christians are moral, we only know that they believe they are being watched. We have no insight into their "true" character.
(c) when either an atheist or Christian is immoral we know that it is their "true" character, as the former does it not believing they are being watched, that latter does it despite believing they are being watched.

I was claiming that no Christian changes their behavior "because they are being watched."
If you insist on this line of thinking, then I would point out that people believe in "Karma",
they believe in their ancestors, they believe is spirit guides, they feel their dead parents
are watching, they hear their parents voices in their heads, or they remember being in jail
last time they stole a car. All of these experiences "hover over" people as they make decisions.
Not just "gods."

 

[GrimKingGrim]

I was claiming that no Christian changes their behavior "because they are being watched."
If you insist on this line of thinking, then I would point out that people believe in "Karma",
they believe in their ancestors, they believe is spirit guides, they feel their dead parents
are watching, they hear their parents voices in their heads, or they remember being in jail
last time they stole a car. All of these experiences "hover over" people as they make decisions.
Not just "gods."

Conscience. Common sense. Reflection. What are good people not allowed to have these?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

I was claiming that no Christian changes their behavior "because they are being watched."

Demonstrably false. I've talked to several Christians that say if they didn't have their god watching, they would have no reason not to do horrible things.

 

[nonbeliever314]

Why don't I do bad things since I have no God to follow?..... Let me say this, if you want to hear something "bad" from a non-believer, here goes. Say I took a trip to Africa, and I stumbled upon a place of worship. I say "Oh, this is interesting, let's go there!" (After all, I'm on "vacation") As I just about get to the door I start to hear a little girl screaming, so I barge in, and the girl is about to have her genitals destroyed because her religion says it should be done. Here's what I'd do, 1) Confirm the act was just about to be done 2) If confirmed, charge the person about to perform it (most likely male) 3) If little girl is unharmed, take her and run 4) If the girl is harmed already, beat the "poop" out of the person performing the "ritual", cut off their genitals and throw it at the followers, take the girl and get her to a hospital. (Yes this is just a made up situation, but that's what I would probably do) You harm an innocent child because of some god that isn't real, you'll feel the real wrath of a real human being.

 

[nonbeliever314]

And if you want to hear one more "bad" thing I would do...... If any person of faith made one of my kids cry because they convinced them they would burn in hell if they didn't accept some guy nailed to a piece of wood as their savior, that's mental abuse to my child, so I'd beat the heck out of them.

 

[JGG]

I was claiming that no Christian changes their behavior "because they are being watched."

No Christian? I will refer you to the early posts of this thread where we heard otherwise. You can click for context.

If I was 100% sure He didn't exist. Yes. Of course. Why not?

No, I only don't do it because I have faith. Why resist taking what you want, if not for religion?

If you insist on this line of thinking, then I would point out that people believe in "Karma",
they believe in their ancestors, they believe is spirit guides, they feel their dead parents
are watching, they hear their parents voices in their heads, or they remember being in jail
last time they stole a car. All of these experiences "hover over" people as they make decisions.
Not just "gods."

Well yes, that's true. I fail to see what your point is.

Isn't it better to do the right thing because it's the right thing to do, not because of gods, or karma, or ancestors, or spirit guides, or dead parents, or jail time?

Isn't it better to do the right thing because it helps someone else out, not because of some perceived punishment or reward?

 

[GrimKingGrim]

Demonstrably false. I've talked to several Christians that say if they didn't have their god watching, they would have no reason not to do horrible things.

Heck, we've got the Op of this thread as a wonderful example

 

[dgiharris]

I was claiming that no Christian changes their behavior "because they are being watched."

As someone who grew up Christian, I seriously disagree.

If I had a nickel for every time I've seen someone who was Christian do something that they completely disagreed with simply because they thought that was what god wanted them to do or that god was watching, I'd have a lot of nickels.

On the flip side, just look at this thread. There are many Christians in this thread that are just "shocked" that atheist don't run around raping and pillaging just because they have no belief in a god. That viewpoint says alot about Christians if you think about it.

.....

As dgiharris was telling us, when atheists are moral it is because they want to be moral. When Christians are moral we can only surmise that it is because "an adult is hovering over them.".

Slight correction, with Christians I would change "we can only surmise..." to =>"we are uncertain if"