Atheists: Why does theism still exist?

[Colter]

Do you get the impression that I despise religious people?

No, it's a generalization.

 

[Freodin]

It's verifiable for me, your own personal experience with God would be verifiable for you. Jesus used the wind as an analogy.

Verification or falsification have to be independent from the individuum. That's part of the concept.

 

[Colter]

You are begging the question. Jesus may be mistaken in his epistemological views. He isn't necessarily an authority on epistemology.

Incidentally, I don't think that Jesus is recorded as arguing that. I think that it is a misattribution.


eudaimonia,

Mark

When Jesus resurrected himself from the dead, it may not have been logical, but he did it anyway just to mess with the people who hide behind epistemological walls.

 

[Freodin]

When Jesus resurrected himself from the dead, it may not have been logical, but he did it anyway just to mess with the people who hide behind epistemological walls.

That must be the reason why he is always on these forums to debate people who hide behind epistemological walls... or supports his loyal followers.

 

[Colter]

Verification or falsification have to be independent from the individuum. That's part of the concept.

Ok, I get that, but its just a human concept, it doesn't prevent realities from existing, rather is more of a man made construct used in scientific inquiry.

Religion is concerned specifically with the scientist, not science. But yes, I know, religion wonders out of its realm and gets tangled up in the weeds when it shouldn't concerning scientific issues like evolution and YEC.

 

[bhsmte]

I struck a raw nerve? Its my experience, Atheist pick apparent flaws, look for wedge issues on these forums. They don't look for validation of spiritual experience, they look down on religious people from an icy intellectual mountain. BTW, I'm under no illusions that you will like my thoughts, atheist despise religious people.

Of course you feel that way. The content and tone of your posts would lead one to no other conclusion.

 

[Chany]

Ok, I get that, but its just a human concept, it doesn't prevent realities from existing, rather is more of a man made construct used in scientific inquiry.

How familiar are you with the study of epistemology? Any decent epistemological system has to have some justifying principle, something to make statements true beyond just stating the statements out loud. On the surface, claims of subjective, personal experience are no better than claims I've made up because they have the same amount of impersonal justification.

The only difference is in action: the person claiming the subjective experience will probably act as if the experience was true while the person who made one up will not act upon it.

Action, however, is not a justification of the truth value of the claim itself, but the result of belief, regardless of the truth content.

The reasons we do not accept your personal experience as valid evidence is:

a) It is no different from someone who we know is insane, yet acts upon their beliefs and assumptions

b) We can study the psychological/neurological/social mechanics behind religious experience and find out that what people consider "spiritual" experience is very much more physical than they believe.

 

[bhsmte]

When Jesus resurrected himself from the dead, it may not have been logical, but he did it anyway just to mess with the people who hide behind epistemological walls.

Did it to mess with people who hide behind epistemological walls?

It would be just as legitimate to state; people actually believe that, to convince themselves.

 

[JGG]

BTW, I'm under no illusions that you will like my thoughts, atheist despise religious people.

Is that a fact? What has led you to this conclusion?

 

[Eudaimonist]

When Jesus resurrected himself from the dead, it may not have been logical, but he did it anyway just to mess with the people who hide behind epistemological walls.

Such as Christians who hide behind their views of what is Truth?

We all have epistemologies -- standards and methods of determining what is truth or falsehood -- there is no escape from that. You have "walls" just as much as anyone else.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[ThinkForYourself]

I struck a raw nerve? Its my experience, Atheist(s) ... don't look for validation of spiritual experience, ...

I think you are wrong here.

If you can validate God with evidence, if God will provide them with a spiritual experience, I think many atheists on this forum will become believers. I know I will. Neither you, nor God, can apparently be bothered.

 

[ThinkForYourself]

It's verifiable for me, your own personal experience with God would be verifiable for you. Jesus used the wind as an analogy.

But God/Jesus haven't provided us with that personal experience.

Why has God forsaken us?

 

[ThinkForYourself]

It's verifiable for me, your own personal experience with God would be verifiable for you. Jesus used the wind as an analogy.

But God/Jesus haven't provided us with that personal experience. And many atheists on this forum were Christians, and even then God chose not to provide us with a personal experience.

Why has God forsaken us?

 

[Loudmouth]

Ok, I get that, but its just a human concept, it doesn't prevent realities from existing, rather is more of a man made construct used in scientific inquiry.

There is nothing more man made than mythologies and deities.

In the end, the existence of God is indistinguishable from the non-existence of God.

 

[Colter]

But God/Jesus haven't provided us with that personal experience. And many atheists on this forum were Christians, and even then God chose not to provide us with a personal experience.

Why has God forsaken us?

True religion is a matter of the sincere child seeking God. A person could be in the Christian social club and have no sincere relationship with God at all. In fact most professed Christians are actually secularists. God asks for complete allegiance or none at all.

You raise a very legitimate issue in your post, while there are varieties of religious experience, we do ponder why us and not another? In my addiction recovery experience I ask why did I "get it" yet another person can't be reached and sticks a shotgun in his mouth? Why? We can only speculate that at some deep level the individual is still holding back on making the sacred choice that God gives them contrary to all appearances.

consider this:

"Religion is functional in the human mind and has been realized in experience prior to its appearance in human consciousness. A child has been in existence about nine months before it experiences birth. But the “birth” of religion is not sudden; it is rather a gradual emergence. Nevertheless, sooner or later there is a “birth day.” You do not enter the kingdom of heaven unless you have been “born again” — born of the Spirit. Many spiritual births are accompanied by much anguish of spirit and marked psychological perturbations, as many physical births are characterized by a “stormy labor” and other abnormalities of “delivery.” Other spiritual births are a natural and normal growth of the recognition of supreme values with an enhancement of spiritual experience, albeit no religious development occurs without conscious effort and positive and individual determinations. Religion is never a passive experience, a negative attitude. What is termed the “birth of religion” is not directly associated with so-called conversion experiences which usually characterize religious episodes occurring later in life as a result of mental conflict, emotional repression, and temperamental upheavals." UB​

Jesus in Rome, Urantia Book:

Trips About Rome​

"Jesus, Gonod, and Ganid made five trips away from Rome to points of interest in the surrounding territory. On their visit to the northern Italian lakes Jesus had the long talk with Ganid concerning the impossibility of teaching a man about God if the man does not desire to know God. They had casually met a thoughtless pagan while on their journey up to the lakes, and Ganid was surprised that Jesus did not follow out his usual practice of enlisting the man in conversation which would naturally lead up to the discussion of spiritual questions. When Ganid asked his teacher why he evinced so little interest in this pagan, Jesus answered:

“Ganid, the man was not hungry for truth. He was not dissatisfied with himself. He was not ready to ask for help, and the eyes of his mind were not open to receive light for the soul. That man was not ripe for the harvest of salvation; he must be allowed more time for the trials and difficulties of life to prepare him for the reception of wisdom and higher learning. Or, if we could have him live with us, we might by our lives show him the Father in heaven, and thus would he become so attracted by our lives as sons of God that he would be constrained to inquire about our Father. You cannot reveal God to those who do not seek for him; you cannot lead unwilling souls into the joys of salvation. Man must become hungry for truth as a result of the experiences of living, or he must desire to know God as the result of contact with the lives of those who are acquainted with the divine Father before another human being can act as the means of leading such a fellow mortal to the Father in heaven. If we know God, our real business on earth is so to live as to permit the Father to reveal himself in our lives, and thus will all God-seeking persons see the Father and ask for our help in finding out more about the God who in this manner finds expression in our lives.” UB 1955​

 

[Colter]

There is nothing more man made than mythologies and deities.

In the end, the existence of God is indistinguishable from the non-existence of God.

For you that may be true, but not for the spirit born.

 

[bhsmte]

For you that may be true, but not for the spirit born.

Why would God only make some people "spirit born"?

Why is it, that fewer and fewer people in the world appear to be "spirit born"?

Is this all part of God's plan? If so, explain this plan.

 

[quatona]

Why would God only make some people "spirit born"?

And why Colter, of all?

 

[Colter]

Why would God only make some people "spirit born"?

Why is it, that fewer and fewer people in the world appear to be "spirit born"?

Is this all part of God's plan? If so, explain this plan.

God gives you a choice, if you don't want to live and be obedient to his will you don't have to. That is the freedom choice that you have.

But lets assume for a moment there is no God and no such choice has been given to you, you are still powerless to continue your life once your flesh terminates.

 

[bhsmte]

God gives you a choice, if you don't want to live and be obedient to his will you don't have to. That is the freedom choice that you have.

Why wouldn't a God make the choice compelling for all, by providing what each person needs to believe?

But lets assume for a moment there is no God and no such choice has been given to you, you are still powerless to continue your life once your flesh terminates.

As a believer, can you show me how you know your life will continue after death and how you have verified that it will?