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Atheists: What If You Are Wrong?

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Jeremy E Walker

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You could say the same, by looking at the bible and saying the same thing.

And surely you would take issue if God had denied people the possibility of living the way they want.

No?

Many emphasize "free thought", and "freedom from religion" and "freedom from tyranny".

When they do, they demonstrate that they think freedom is a good thing, something desirable.

But these same people will then accuse God of wrongdoing for giving people "freedom" to do as they will.

The words of Christ ring so true:

“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling to their playmates,

“‘We played the flute for you, and you did not dance;
we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.’

For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds.”
 
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Eudaimonist

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But these same people will then accuse God of wrongdoing for giving people "freedom" to do as they will.

What you might be thinking of here is the issue of the combination of eternal hell and free will. Together, they make a brutal combination. I don't see any atheists saying that free will by itself as a bad thing.



eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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bhsmte

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And surely you would take issue if God had denied people the possibility of living the way they want.

No?

Many emphasize "free thought", and "freedom from religion" and "freedom from tyranny".

When they do, they demonstrate that they think freedom is a good thing, something desirable.

But these same people will then accuse God of wrongdoing for giving people "freedom" to do as they will.

The words of Christ ring so true:

“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling to their playmates,

“‘We played the flute for you, and you did not dance;
we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.’

For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds.”

One of my main issues with Christianity, but there are many:

God sends Jesus to save everyone and only allows him to be exposed to a small part of the population and then requires a person to fully accept Jesus to enter paradise. If you don't accept him you are doomed. The murderer or serial rapist will be saved and allowed paradise, as long as they repent and find Jesus in prison, the Hindu or non-believer that spends their life helping others, is doomed, all because they don't believe in the Christian story. If the Christian God was fair, he would have assured all the population had equal exposure to Jesus, which he didn't and the result has been, the majority of the worlds population, are not Christian.

If you think that is a moral God, that loves all his creation, knock yourself out.
 
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Jeremy E Walker

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What you might be thinking of here is the issue of the combination of eternal hell and free will. Together, they make a brutal combination. I don't see any atheists saying that free will by itself as a bad thing.



eudaimonia,

Mark

Why is the combination brutal?

That would be like saying that the combination of prison and the ability to choose to be a law abiding citizen are brutal.

Surely you would not accuse a judge of being brutal if he sentenced an unrepentant criminal to prison now would you?
 
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Eudaimonist

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Why is the combination brutal?

That would be like saying that the combination of prison and the ability to choose to be a law abiding citizen are brutal.

Prison isn't eternal.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Jeremy E Walker

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God sends Jesus to save everyone and only allows him to be exposed to a small part of the population and then requires a person to fully accept Jesus to enter paradise. If you don't accept him you are doomed. The murderer or serial rapist will be saved and allowed paradise, as long as they repent and find Jesus in prison, the Hindu or non-believer that spends their life helping others, is doomed, all because they don't believe in the Christian story. If the Christian God was fair, he would have assured all the population had equal exposure to Jesus, which he didn't and the result has been, the majority of the worlds population, are not Christian.

If you think that is a moral God, that loves all his creation, knock yourself out.


I actually think it is:

straw-man.jpg


Phrases like: "fully accept Jesus", and "the Hindu or non-believer .... is doomed, all because they don't believe in the Christian story", are not phrases or ideas found in the Bible at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQqTiNQk9Fc
 
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Jeremy E Walker

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Prison isn't eternal.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Yes I know. I also know that Christianity tells us that people are chiefly, spiritual beings and thus eternal beings who are unrepentant and in open, willful rebellion against The Eternal Holy and Righteous God, hence the need for a mediator between God and man, hence, Christ.


Thus, when one dies, they go to either one of two places, Heaven i.e. the eternal dwelling place of the righteous who like God are lovers of righteousness and have been justified by Christ's vicarious death and resurrection, or hell i.e. the eternal dwelling place of the unrighteous who are not like God and are lovers of unrighteousness who rejected the offer of salvation.
 
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JGL53

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Yes I know. I also know that Christianity tells us that people are chiefly, spiritual beings and thus eternal beings who are unrepentant and in open, willful rebellion against The Eternal Holy and Righteous God, hence the need for a mediator between God and man, hence, Christ.


Thus, when one dies, they go to either one of two places, Heaven i.e. the eternal dwelling place of the righteous who like God are lovers of righteousness and have been justified by Christ's vicarious death and resurrection, or hell i.e. the eternal dwelling place of the unrighteous who are not like God and are lovers of unrighteousness who rejected the offer of salvation.

There's no good reason whatsoever to suspect any of the above assertions are true. As an e.g., Zoroastrianism makes more intrinsic sense than all that. And even adding Mormonism to the above doesn't make it that much more unbelievable.

I have zero hatred for anyone. That includes the many christians who believe the above. I just feel sorry for such christians. You have essentially created a monkey, put it on your own back, then have to live out your life with a monkey on your back. There is something Very wrong with that picture.
 
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bhsmte

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I actually think it is:

straw-man.jpg


Phrases like: "fully accept Jesus", and "the Hindu or non-believer .... is doomed, all because they don't believe in the Christian story", are not phrases or ideas found in the Bible at all.

[William Lane Craig] Q&A - Is Jesus the only way? What about those who never heard the Gospel? - YouTube

As usual, Craig talks out of both sides of his mouth. On one hand, he knows it looks bad if God judges good people poorly if they don't believe in him, so he sort of covers his bases. But, he admits, salvation is only found through Christ. He would have made a good politician.

Sam Harris called him on the immorality of this topic quite well below:

Sam Harris demolishes Christianity - YouTube
 
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Eudaimonist

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Yes I know. I also know that Christianity tells us that people are chiefly, spiritual beings and thus eternal beings who are unrepentant and in open, willful rebellion against The Eternal Holy and Righteous God, hence the need for a mediator between God and man, hence, Christ.


Thus, when one dies, they go to either one of two places, Heaven i.e. the eternal dwelling place of the righteous who like God are lovers of righteousness and have been justified by Christ's vicarious death and resurrection, or hell i.e. the eternal dwelling place of the unrighteous who are not like God and are lovers of unrighteousness who rejected the offer of salvation.

Once you go to either heaven or hell, you will be there forever. You will not get another chance to get into heaven from hell for all eternity. That is what is brutal.

It would be very different if hell really did function like a prison, where you serve your sentence, are released, and then get a chance to prove that your character has improved.

This isn't rocket science. I'm sure that you must see my point.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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JGL53

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Eudaimonist: "Once you go to either heaven or hell, you will be there forever. You will not get another chance to get into heaven from hell for all eternity. That is what is brutal.

It would be very different if hell really did function like a prison, where you serve your sentence, are released, and then get a chance to prove that your character has improved...."

This is an important point for me also. As an e.g., I think that the seemingly supernatural aspects of Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, and Christian Universalism are wrong, since they are basically literalizing metaphors, i.e., interpreting poetic expression as being actual historical events.

They are wrong in my opinion but I would pass no negative moral judgment on them per se for this misinterpretation. (I don't see believing without evidence per se as a moral failure - one could argue it is, I suppose.)

But I judge believers in eternal punishment - really radically sectarian religionists - to be additionally be morally corrupt. - Or, rather, their promotion of such a ghastly idea like hell to be highly morally corrupting - especially of children.

As Christopher Hitchens made the point many times: a Hitler, a Stalin or a Pol Pot are only able to torture you for a finite length of time and then murder you. In contrast, christian believers in hell believe in a god that has created many people just to wind up in eternal pain - where the annihilation of death is not available. So they present a god to the world that is worst than a Hitler, a Stalin, or a Pol Pot.

That is just so very NOT right. One wishes they could see the light and cut that out. It is an embarrassment to the entire human race.
 
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Jeremy E Walker

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There's no good reason whatsoever to suspect any of the above assertions are true. As an e.g., Zoroastrianism makes more intrinsic sense than all that. And even adding Mormonism to the above doesn't make it that much more unbelievable.

I have zero hatred for anyone. That includes the many christians who believe the above. I just feel sorry for such christians. You have essentially created a monkey, put it on your own back, then have to live out your life with a monkey on your back. There is something Very wrong with that picture.

Whether or not what I said is true is not what we were discussing.

We were discussing how I reconcile the concept of an eternal hell with the existence of humans who possess the capacity for making choices.

As far as creating a monkey, I do not think one has to look to hard to find that human beings are fundamentally messed up. The recent mass shootings in the states bears this out along with every other account of people doing horrific things to one another and to themselves.

I live life with no illusions about the sinful adamic nature that is within me that is continually opposed to the will of God.

I am free and completely liberated by Christ who bore the penalty for my sins on the cross and I now walk in the newness of This Life.

I have never felt more free.
 
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JGL53

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Whether or not what I said is true is not what we were discussing.

We were discussing how I reconcile the concept of an eternal hell with the existence of humans who possess the capacity for making choices.

As far as creating a monkey, I do not think one has to look to hard to find that human beings are fundamentally messed up. The recent mass shootings in the states bears this out along with every other account of people doing horrific things to one another and to themselves.

I live life with no illusions about the sinful adamic nature that is within me that is continually opposed to the will of God.

I am free and completely liberated by Christ who bore the penalty for my sins on the cross and I now walk in the newness of This Life.

I have never felt more free.

Good for you. And if you can sleep at night believing that billions of humans, none of whom ask to exist, will eventually suffer an eternity in pain, then I will hand it to you. You are capable of believing in a horror of which I cannot even conceive.

As for being free, I am free in such a way that you have absolutely NO conception - apparently.

But you are you and I am me. And I am SO happy about that.

As for being free, I am free in such a way that you have absolutely NO conception whatsoever - apparently.
 
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Syd the Human

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Like I said, not much of a deity.

Your opinion of the deity would not affect reality. For example, there are people who hate the Christian god, for things like having their sister die of cancer or getting some really painful disease or whatever. Does that affect his existence? How you feel about something does not really change reality.
 
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bhsmte

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Your opinion of the deity would not affect reality. For example, there are people who hate the Christian god, for things like having their sister die of cancer or getting some really painful disease or whatever. Does that affect his existence? How you feel about something does not really change reality.

Nope, it usually doesn't.
 
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Eudaimonist

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I am free and completely liberated by Christ who bore the penalty for my sins on the cross and I now walk in the newness of This Life.

I have never felt more free.

That's nice. I am free of the potentially tormenting belief that my non-Christian loved ones are stuck in hell for all eternity.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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durangodawood

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Atheists, do you ever worry what will happen to you if you are wrong in your disbelief in God and He really does exist.....
Worry?

No. But it would be awesome if I was wrong!

A chance for the great Me-Project to carry on after I die! Sign me up!
 
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stevenfrancis

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The way I understand heaven and hell would be not so much that there is a God anxious to "send" us to either place, (more correctly either state of being). There is much fuss, (and for good reason), made of man's "free will". The ability to make choices. Besides man's free will, there is God's will, which is expressed in natural law and in revelation through prophets, scripture, etc. If we choose to use our free will to do God's will....that is then we are showing in our mortal life, that we have love for God, and His will for us. So at our departure point from mortal life, and upon our birth into eternal life, it is a perfected continuum of the way we orient our will. The perfected state of the mortal love of God and His will is heaven, paradise and such. A close proximity to the ultimate good for eternity.

We can also choose to defy God's will. To serve self. To cater to one's own desires of the flesh at every important decision point. It's possible that this is even a preference. If this is the case.....if one desires a separation from God and His will for us, and chooses that path at every given opportunity, and if this accompanies without remorse or attrition, and we carry this expression of our free will forward until mortal death and birth into eternal life, then we are saying that we wish our eternal life to be far from God. This would be our express desire. A distinct distance from God. Those who are oriented in their lives to prefer God's will, and feel and honest disobedience unto death carry on into a perfect continuum of their desired state. The perfected state of disobedience and turning away from God by acts of free will, and eternal separation therefore from God also, is called "hell" by believers in God. But though to a believer, eternal separation from God might be considered "hell", for a determined and willful disbeliever this eternal separation may actually be thought of as heaven.

This is not to say that the disbeliever is bent on evil simply from disbelief. I'm going to use a term here which has a negative connotation to most, but when discussing the Christian faith, it has a different meaning. That term is "ignorance", and a finer distinction of "invincible ignorance" may even be applied to some. This doesn't refer to one's intellect when discussing Christianity. This is a reference to one's ability to feel and practice "faith". The state of invincible ignorance can be manifest by lack of catechesis, lack of exposure to the gospel, cultural bias, peer group, world view, etc.. Not so much the persons conscious choices, nor any specifically intended kind of disobedience or lack of respect for God. Non-believers in this category might self-identify in a religion outside of Christianity, for instance. Or perhaps as secular humanists. Atheists and agnostics. Others as well. Where the person still makes their choices based on informed conscience, and moral and ethical natural law, and is not exerting energy to specifically and actively work against God's laws in some fashion with the intent of doing so. This type of person is not likely to find themselves in the state which Christians refer to as hell. Particularly if the person is remorseful when wrong is done to what I can only call natural conscience and natural law, (which to a Christian is thought of as an indwelling of the Holy Spirit). Because they are still orienting their life to the good, and at least show a preference for the light. They simply have not been (yet), called by Jesus Christ in a way which they understand or have self-awareness of.

The Christian believes that all are raised to eternal life. And in a manner of speaking, all get the eternal life they have begun to construct in their mortal life, in an ultimate or perfected form.

Of course, I expect I am not expressing these rather complicated thoughts with clarity. Particularly to the non-believer, and apologize for my limitations of vocabulary and intellectual prowess. But on the last day, a good many of us will be surprised, I suspect, of who we see and don't see in any given eternal state of being.

This is my understanding, and your mileage may vary significantly. But it's closer to the truth than the hateful God boogeyman that I hear spoken of in speculative posts by some of the more vocal and even angry (?) dis-believers in modern times.

God bless,
 
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Davian

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Atheists, do you ever worry what will happen to you if you are wrong in your disbelief in God and He really does exist.
No. Without an objective measure of some sort to show that gods are anything more than characters in books, I see no need to worry.
Do you find the thought of there being no afterlife depressing?
No. I do not miss what I never had.
How do Atheists conquer the fear of hell? Especially if they have come from a Christian background and been raised to believe in such things?
I have never had such beliefs.
 
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JGL53

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The way I understand heaven and hell would be not so much that there is a God anxious to "send" us to either place, (more correctly either state of being). There is much fuss, (and for good reason), made of man's "free will". The ability to make choices. Besides man's free will, there is God's will, which is expressed in natural law and in revelation through prophets, scripture, etc. If we choose to use our free will to do God's will....that is then we are showing in our mortal life, that we have love for God, and His will for us. So at our departure point from mortal life, and upon our birth into eternal life, it is a perfected continuum of the way we orient our will. The perfected state of the mortal love of God and His will is heaven, paradise and such. A close proximity to the ultimate good for eternity.

We can also choose to defy God's will. To serve self. To cater to one's own desires of the flesh at every important decision point. It's possible that this is even a preference. If this is the case.....if one desires a separation from God and His will for us, and chooses that path at every given opportunity, and if this accompanies without remorse or attrition, and we carry this expression of our free will forward until mortal death and birth into eternal life, then we are saying that we wish our eternal life to be far from God. This would be our express desire. A distinct distance from God. Those who are oriented in their lives to prefer God's will, and feel and honest disobedience unto death carry on into a perfect continuum of their desired state. The perfected state of disobedience and turning away from God by acts of free will, and eternal separation therefore from God also, is called "hell" by believers in God. But though to a believer, eternal separation from God might be considered "hell", for a determined and willful disbeliever this eternal separation may actually be thought of as heaven.

This is not to say that the disbeliever is bent on evil simply from disbelief. I'm going to use a term here which has a negative connotation to most, but when discussing the Christian faith, it has a different meaning. That term is "ignorance", and a finer distinction of "invincible ignorance" may even be applied to some. This doesn't refer to one's intellect when discussing Christianity. This is a reference to one's ability to feel and practice "faith". The state of invincible ignorance can be manifest by lack of catechesis, lack of exposure to the gospel, cultural bias, peer group, world view, etc.. Not so much the persons conscious choices, nor any specifically intended kind of disobedience or lack of respect for God. Non-believers in this category might self-identify in a religion outside of Christianity, for instance. Or perhaps as secular humanists. Atheists and agnostics. Others as well. Where the person still makes their choices based on informed conscience, and moral and ethical natural law, and is not exerting energy to specifically and actively work against God's laws in some fashion with the intent of doing so. This type of person is not likely to find themselves in the state which Christians refer to as hell. Particularly if the person is remorseful when wrong is done to what I can only call natural conscience and natural law, (which to a Christian is thought of as an indwelling of the Holy Spirit). Because they are still orienting their life to the good, and at least show a preference for the light. They simply have not been (yet), called by Jesus Christ in a way which they understand or have self-awareness of.

The Christian believes that all are raised to eternal life. And in a manner of speaking, all get the eternal life they have begun to construct in their mortal life, in an ultimate or perfected form.

Of course, I expect I am not expressing these rather complicated thoughts with clarity. Particularly to the non-believer, and apologize for my limitations of vocabulary and intellectual prowess. But on the last day, a good many of us will be surprised, I suspect, of who we see and don't see in any given eternal state of being.

This is my understanding, and your mileage may vary significantly. But it's closer to the truth than the hateful God boogeyman that I hear spoken of in speculative posts by some of the more vocal and even angry (?) dis-believers in modern times.

God bless,

You seem to mean well - though many fundamentalist protestant christians would assume you are going to hell because you are catholic, which they don't think qualify you per se as a saved christian - I just assume you're in the same boat as everyone, including me. And welcome aboard.

What I get from your post is that hell is a state of mind. That I can agree with.

Or that hell is a word describing the separation from god in the afterlife for those who didn't have the right state of mind while on earth - those that did get to be with god eternally in an afterlife. Well that's a possibility.

People who are diehard agnostic on the whole subject emphasize we can know of the truth or falsity of religion and the various religious claims so we should just hang loose and not worry about it. They generally recommend following the golden rule and hoping for the best.

I'm not hot to argue with agnostics. I think they may have a point.

Personally if following the golden rule as best I can is not good enough for the "unknown" god that MAY be up there somewhere, then I am not interested in playing any silly reindeer games.
 
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