Atheists' non-fundamental concept of God in relation to the universe.

[Jade Margery]

So I've skimmed through this thread and read a couple of your posts very carefully, Pacho, and I still have no real clue what you're trying to say or ask. I'll just use your last one as an example.

You bring in so many things when the fundamental concept of God etc. is so simple, any man in the street can understand it.
Maker of everything in the universe that is not God Himself.

Okay. You've said this 'maker' line about a dozen times now. Yes, that is a fundamental concept of the christian god. We got that. We're good. As many have asked, what is your point?

I am asking you if you know that to be the précis of the fundamental concept of God in relation to the universe, in the Christian faith, yes, no?

Yes. And I'm pretty sure there isn't a single educated adult in western civilization that doesn't know that.

If no, then what do you find problematic in that fundamental concept of God in relation to the universe, in the Christian faith?

You are asking us... if we don't know... that a group of people believes something specific. Yes? And then you are asking us what we find problematic with not knowing that a group of people believes that specific thing? This question is just beyond confusing. How can you find not knowing something to be problematic?


Really what it comes down to is, why are you making long, repetitive posts that all say the same thing and neither make a solid point nor ask a real philosophical question?

 

[ToHoldNothing]

Well that is your opinion, but what is Jesus without the Father maker of everything?


So, let us go first to the most fundamental concept in the Christian faith in regard to God in relation to the universe.

Will you stay there, or you want to bring in so many things, but avoiding the most fundamental issue in the Christian faith on the fundamental concept of God in relation to the universe.


That will reveal you to be a diversionary thinker.





Pachomius

The fundamental concept of God in Christianity as related to the universe could be said to be more specific than you're making it. A God merely creating the universe and distinct from it again sounds merely like a Deist God who doesn't care.

But the Christian God is said to fundamentally want a relationship with its creation, which makes it different from the Deist God in a significant way, it is personal, not impersonal, it is related, not detached to the universe it creates. It does not take a non-interventionist position, so to speak.

And the distinctions continue. Even if you specify that the fundamental concept of God is, in this conversation, about the universe as relates to God, we still seem to have distinctions in Christianity about God that make it different from Deism, for example

 

[Lord Emsworth]

If no, then what do you find problematic in that fundamental concept of God in relation to the universe, in the Christian faith?

It is incomplete and deceptive. But that is not my problem, Pachomius. If anything, it is yours.

 

[Pachomius]

So I've skimmed through this thread and read a couple of your posts very carefully, Pacho, and I still have no real clue what you're trying to say or ask. I'll just use your last one as an example.



Okay. You've said this 'maker' line about a dozen times now. Yes, that is a fundamental concept of the christian god. We got that. We're good. As many have asked, what is your point?



Yes. And I'm pretty sure there isn't a single educated adult in western civilization that doesn't know that.



You are asking us... if we don't know... that a group of people believes something specific. Yes? And then you are asking us what we find problematic with not knowing that a group of people believes that specific thing? This question is just beyond confusing. How can you find not knowing something to be problematic?


Really what it comes down to is, why are you making long, repetitive posts that all say the same thing and neither make a solid point nor ask a real philosophical question?

Well, if you find nothing problematic with the fundamental concept of God in the Christian faith, in relation to the universe, insofar as acquaintance with the concept in the Christian faith is concerned, then I am happy that you do have the acquaintance correctly.

I am happy.

That is my point.

And I am not happy if atheists and non-Christians keep on getting the fundamental concept of God in relation to the universe, in the Christian faith, wrongly.

Why am I not happy?

Because I am not happy when people don't get the correct information about the concept of my God etc., just as I am not happy with people who don't get the correction information of what I am and where I work and what I do for weekends, etc.

Specially when what wrong information they get about me is not to my credit.

So, if you do know that in the Christian faith, the fundamental concept of God in relation to the universe is that:

God is the maker of everything that is not God Himself.​

Then you have the correct information and I am happy for being a Christian that people like you get the correct information about my God insofar as the concept is concerned, in relation to the universe.

Okay, are you still not acquainted with my point?

Or you think I have some other agenda here?

Let me hear what you think are my other agenda here.


Anyway, read the title of the thread:

Atheists' non-fundamental concept of God in relation to the universe, [add] in the Christian faith [can't complete that line in the title box because the space allowed is too limited].​

From the title alone you know already that I am into correcting the non-fundamental concept of God in relation to the universe, in the Christian faith, which atheists and non-Christians are or might not get correctly.

You are not one of them, okay, I am happy that you are not one of them.

So, you can depart from this thread and go your way happy that I am happy, and there are two more happy people in the world.



You still feel something is wrong here?

Okay, tell me what is wrong here in this thread.




Pachomius

 

[Pachomius]

I have to leave the computer but I am still online.

Be back in 30 minutes time.


Thanks for participating, everyone here.




Pachomius

 

[Jade Margery]

Well, if you find nothing problematic with the fundamental concept of God in the Christian faith, in relation to the universe, insofar as acquaintance with the concept in the Christian faith is concerned, then I am happy that you do have the acquaintance correctly.

I am happy.

That is my point.

And I am not happy if atheists and non-Christians keep on getting the fundamental concept of God in relation to the universe, in the Christian faith, wrongly.

Why am I not happy?

Because I am not happy when people don't get the correct information about the concept of my God etc., just as I am not happy with people who don't get the correction information of what I am and where I work and what I do for weekends, etc.

Specially when what wrong information they get about me is not to my credit.

So, if you do know that in the Christian faith, the fundamental concept of God in relation to the universe is that:

God is the maker of everything that is not God Himself.​

Then you have the correct information and I am happy for being a Christian that people like you get the correct information about my God insofar as the concept is concerned, in relation to the universe.

Okay, are you still not acquainted with my point?

Or you think I have some other agenda here?

Let me hear what you think are my other agenda here.


Anyway, read the title of the thread:

Atheists' non-fundamental concept of God in relation to the universe, [add] in the Christian faith [can't complete that line in the title box because the space allowed is too limited].​

From the title alone you know already that I am into correcting the non-fundamental concept of God in relation to the universe, in the Christian faith, which atheists and non-Christians are or might not get correctly.

You are not one of them, okay, I am happy that you are not one of them.

So, you can depart from this thread and go your way happy that I am happy, and there are two more happy people in the world.



You still feel something is wrong here?

Okay, tell me what is wrong here in this thread.

Pachomius

Mostly I'm just confused as to why this is even an issue to discuss. Do you really think there is a single atheist on this site who doesn't know that in the christian faith, 'god' created everything except himself? Where, if anywhere, have you seen this misconception? And what does a non-fundamental concept even mean?

After some studying, it seems like you're just stating the obvious in a very round-a-bout and reiterative way and trying to get people to see things from your point of view... when they already do. I've been trying to figure out if that's all you're talking about, or if there is actually some kind of philosophical debate here that I'm just missing entirely. Your writing is very difficult to understand clearly.

 

[Pachomius]

Mostly I'm just confused as to why this is even an issue to discuss. Do you really think there is a single atheist on this site who doesn't know that in the christian faith, 'god' created everything except himself? Where, if anywhere, have you seen this misconception? And what does a non-fundamental concept even mean?

After some studying, it seems like you're just stating the obvious in a very round-a-bout and reiterative way and trying to get people to see things from your point of view... when they already do. I've been trying to figure out if that's all you're talking about, or if there is actually some kind of philosophical debate here that I'm just missing entirely. Your writing is very difficult to understand clearly.

Good, please don't mention tooth fairy, flying spaghetti monster, invisible pink unicorn, celestial teapot, when you refer to God in the Christian fiath in relation to the universe.


Now, let me see, you will repeat that you are just into explaining how God in the Christian faith in relation to the universe is like those characters because He is as incoherent as them.

Just say that He is to you from your thinking incoherent, or impossible, or unthinkable in your mind, no need to bring in characters which are not to the issue of the concept of God in the Christian faith in relation to the universe.

It just goes to show that you are diversionary thinkers and speakers.





Pachomius

 

[Jade Margery]

Good, please don't mention tooth fairy, flying spaghetti monster, invisible pink unicorn, celestial teapot, when you refer to God in the Christian fiath in relation to the universe.


Now, let me see, you will repeat that you are just into explaining how God in the Christian faith in relation to the universe is like those characters because He is as incoherent as them.

You seem to have me mixed up with someone else? And I don't think anyone is (or has been) saying that.

Just say that He is to you from your thinking incoherent, or impossible, or unthinkable in your mind, no need to bring in characters which are not to the issue of the concept of God in the Christian faith in relation to the universe.

Bolding mine, what the heck does this mean? which are not to the issue... of the concept... in the faith... in relation to...

A coherent sentence this is not!

It just goes to show that you are diversionary thinkers and speakers.

So.... your point is that... atheists... divert things? (I'm assuming you mean 'you' in the generalized sense.)



As near as I can tell, you are now saying that comparing the christian god to the tooth fairy is not a fair parallel because as supernatural beings they are fundamentally different, i.e., one is the maker of all things but itself and the other gives children monetary awards for cast off teeth. What you seem to be missing is that atheists aren't comparing your god to a fairy. They are comparing belief in your god to belief in a fairy.

But if it would make you feel better, may I compare your god to Auðumbla, the sacred primeval cow of Norse mythology who created the gods and therefore all else? Or perhaps Nyx, the black-winged bird of the void whose egg became the earth and the sky in Greek mythology? All of which, of course, we have equal evidence for.

 

[quatona]

With all respect to your self-esteem, I have not come to a definite answer from you.

post #10
http://www.christianforums.com/t7565422/#post57643148

Now, in order that I will be certainly sure that you do get the fundamental concept of God in relation to the universe, in the Christian faith, please repeat after me the following text in quotation marks.

"I, quatona, do solemnly affirm that I do know the fundamental concept of God in relation to the universe, in the Christian faith to be:

Maker of everything that is not God Himself.​

Further affiant sayeth naught."​

Please don´t be ridiculous.
​

Now, I can be certainly sure that you are talking about the same concept of God as I am talking about, if you do affirm the preceding text above from your own lips and pen.

I have said that I acknowledge that you hold said god concept and for purposes of these discussions this god concept will be the basis.
Now, don´t make me jump through all sorts of funny loops and hoops.

We will discuss your god concept: God is the maker of everything but God Himself.

That will stop all diversions from you.

I didn´t divert from your god concept at any time. What, however, I did was:
When you told me what my position was, I corrected you.

 

[Pachomius]

Well, it is very convenient for you to cater to your hatred for God to say that you are just into comparing Christians' belief in God Who to them is in fundamental concept maker of everything that is not God Himself, to belief in a tooth fairy.


Now, you say you don't hate God.

Well, so that you will not give the impression to Christians and people who do know how persons who hate express their hatred with duplicitous words in order to engage in hate speech by hiding it behind duplicitous words, better compare Christian belief in God to atheists' fondness for the theory of evolution, because that is the nearest thing to God with atheists, evolution.

Think about that.


Then all of us will be happier with each other.

You atheists will be happy that you are not being misunderstood to be venting out your hatred for God Who in fundamental concept to Christians is the maker of everything that is not God Himself.

And Christians will be happy with you because their belief in God is not being vilified by atheists with atheists' comparing it to tooth fairy, flying spaghetti monster, invisible pink unicorn, celestial teapot, but by you atheists comparing it with your belief in evolution or whatever idea evolution is for atheists (of course for atheists it is both theory and fact).



So, don't compare God to tooth fairy, flying spaghetti monster, invisible pink unicorn, celestial teapot.


That will certainly be the civil thing to do in a Christian forum.

Also in a society that is predominantly Christian.


Then we can all Christians and atheists and anyone else discuss how God and evolution are similar and how different, but we are both explaining everything with for Christians the fundamental concept of God in relation to the universe as maker of everything that is not God Himself, and for atheists it is evolution.


So, what do you say about that?


And Christians can sing "Glory to God in the highest and peace on earth to men of good will, including atheists of good will."




Pachomius

 

[Jro]

I submit Christians' concept of God is the most sophisticated, modesty aside.

What's your measurement for sophistication?

Name one sophistication of other gods which the Christian God does not have in concept.

I'd need a definition of what you consider sophistication first.

You see, it is the fundamental concept of God in relation to the universe for Christians that:

God is the maker of everything that is not God Himself.​

So, what more sophistication can you think of that other gods which you have in your conceptual repertoire possess, which God in our conceptual repertoire does not possess, when we already define God in our conceptual repertoire as:

God is the maker of everything that is not God Himself.​

There are many creator gods. I don't understand how the definition you've offered of the Christian god is any different from the definition someone else would give of another creator god.

Hope you get my drift.

Not at all. It would help me understand if you used short, declarative sentences with clearly defined words, such as "My god is more sophisticated than other gods because he only drinks martinis in tuxedoes."

 

[Freodin]

Well, it is very convenient for you to cater to your hatred for God to say that you are just into comparing Christians' belief in God Who to them is in fundamental concept maker of everything that is not God Himself, to belief in a tooth fairy.


Now, you say you don't hate God.

Well, so that you will not give the impression to Christians and people who do know how persons who hate express their hatred with duplicitous words in order to engage in hate speech by hiding it behind duplicitous words, better compare Christian belief in God to atheists' fondness for the theory of evolution, because that is the nearest thing to God with atheists, evolution.

Think about that.


Then all of us will be happier with each other.

You atheists will be happy that you are not being misunderstood to be venting out your hatred for God Who in fundamental concept to Christians is the maker of everything that is not God Himself.

And Christians will be happy with you because their belief in God is not being vilified by atheists with atheists' comparing it to tooth fairy, flying spaghetti monster, invisible pink unicorn, celestial teapot, but by you atheists comparing it with your belief in evolution or whatever idea evolution is for atheists (of course for atheists it is both theory and fact).



So, don't compare God to tooth fairy, flying spaghetti monster, invisible pink unicorn, celestial teapot.


That will certainly be the civil thing to do in a Christian forum.

Also in a society that is predominantly Christian.


Then we can all Christians and atheists and anyone else discuss how God and evolution are similar and how different, but we are both explaining everything with for Christians the fundamental concept of God in relation to the universe as maker of everything that is not God Himself, and for atheists it is evolution.


So, what do you say about that?


And Christians can sing "Glory to God in the highest and peace on earth to men of good will, including atheists of good will."




Pachomius

Now you say that God as creator of everything for a Christian is on an identical level as Evolution is for Atheists.

But as Evolution does not have such a position - not by far! - for an atheistic worldview, your comparison is invalid.

It is not comparable to the "comparison" of God to tooth-fairies or the invisible pink unicorn (BBHHH), because this comparison made by Atheists uses as a level for comparing just a single evaluation: both God and the compared objects do not exist.

So by using invalid comparisons you show your disrespect for the position of Atheists.


That must mean you hate us and hide your hatred behind walls of text.

Amirite or what?

 

[Jro]

Well, it is very convenient for you to cater to your hatred for God to say that you are just into comparing Christians' belief in God Who to them is in fundamental concept maker of everything that is not God Himself, to belief in a tooth fairy.

If someone honestly sees things that way, why does that upset you? You haven't really offered any reasons for why it's wrong besides 'it's diverting us from what I want to talk about.'

Well, so that you will not give the impression to Christians and people who do know how persons who hate express their hatred with duplicitous words in order to engage in hate speech by hiding it behind duplicitous words, better compare Christian belief in God to atheists' fondness for the theory of evolution, because that is the nearest thing to God with atheists, evolution.

I spend most of my days studying evolution and I can honestly say that it's not like a god for me. For example, when I get hurt, I do not say "OH EVOLUTION BLAST IT." When I want something I do not say "HEY EVOLUTION GET ME THIS." When I have questions about the world, evolution is suited to answering a narrow range of them however. Fortunately these are the questions I'm interested in. It's a scientific theory much like the germ theory of disease.

And Christians will be happy with you because their belief in God is not being vilified by atheists with atheists' comparing it to tooth fairy, flying spaghetti monster, invisible pink unicorn, celestial teapot, but by you atheists comparing it with your belief in evolution or whatever idea evolution is for atheists (of course for atheists it is both theory and fact).

Just because I think a belief is false doesn't mean I'm vilifying it. It seems like you just want people to stop making that comparison because you dislike the comparison. I'm not sure how successful you'll be with that.

Then we can all Christians and atheists and anyone else discuss how God and evolution are similar and how different, but we are both explaining everything with for Christians the fundamental concept of God in relation to the universe as maker of everything that is not God Himself, and for atheists it is evolution.

Not similar. Evolution explains the diversification of life, not the origin of the universe, the origin of life, the origin of planets, etc., etc., etc. Covers a specific range of topics. It seems like you just really dislike the comparison to creatures you don't believe in, but for me, personally, regardless of the specific contents of a belief, if it is unjustified and unevidenced it is untenable. If you'd rather discuss something else, I'm happy to drop it for the purpose of this thread, but it seems like you want me to drop it in both the fora and society. If that's the case, we haven't discussed it enough for me to understand why you think that it's an incorrect comparison.

 

[Pachomius]

You have not proven that God does not exist.

But just the same, I am not into the existence of God, but into the concept of God.

And on concept to concept comparison I see you atheists are very conspicuous to be into hate speech no matter how you sanctimoniously you avail of camouflages.





Pachomius

 

[Jade Margery]

Well, it is very convenient for you to cater to your hatred for God to say that you are just into comparing Christians' belief in God Who to them is in fundamental concept maker of everything that is not God Himself, to belief in a tooth fairy.

You reallly don't have to add 'fundamental concept maker of everything that isn't himself' into every other sentence. It just adds artificial length to the phrase and makes it difficult to follow. What are you, the reincarnation of William Faulkner? And what is it with you and repetition?

Now, you say you don't hate God.

Just as you surely do not hate the tooth fairy or Santa, atheists do not 'hate' god. There's simply no point in wasting energy on hating something that doesn't exist.

Well, so that you will not give the impression to Christians and people who do know how persons who hate express their hatred with duplicitous words in order to engage in hate speech by hiding it behind duplicitous words, better compare Christian belief in God to atheists' fondness for the theory of evolution, because that is the nearest thing to God with atheists, evolution.

Bolding mine. By any chance, is English your second language? I mean this not as an insult, but merely as an observation that while your spelling is excellent, your sentence structure sometimes suggests a different underlying association.

And no, as others have pointed out, evolution is no where near to god in concept or actuality. For one thing, there is evidence for evolution.

Think about that.

Then all of us will be happier with each other.

You atheists will be happy that you are not being misunderstood to be venting out your hatred for God Who in fundamental concept to Christians is the maker of everything that is not God Himself.

Whut.

And Christians will be happy with you because their belief in God is not being vilified by atheists with atheists' comparing it to tooth fairy, flying spaghetti monster, invisible pink unicorn, celestial teapot, but by you atheists comparing it with your belief in evolution or whatever idea evolution is for atheists (of course for atheists it is both theory and fact).

Hey, if the imaginary allegorical shoe fits...

So, don't compare God to tooth fairy, flying spaghetti monster, invisible pink unicorn, celestial teapot.

That will certainly be the civil thing to do in a Christian forum.

Also in a society that is predominantly Christian.

You never did tell me whether I could compare your god to Nyx the Greek black-winged bird or Audhumbla the Norse cow of creation.

Then we can all Christians and atheists and anyone else discuss how God and evolution are similar and how different, but we are both explaining everything with for Christians the fundamental concept of God in relation to the universe as maker of everything that is not God Himself, and for atheists it is evolution.

So, what do you say about that?

I say you're standing on a metaphorical street corner in a thunderstorm and yelling 'Agree that I'm wet! But don't compare it to being dunked in a pool! Rain and pools are different things!'

I'm still pretty bemused trying to figure out what all the fuss is about.

And Christians can sing "Glory to God in the highest and peace on earth to men of good will, including atheists of good will."

D'awww, we get a special mention! As a woman though, I'm still feeling left out.

 

[Pachomius]

It is clear that you atheists who keep defending your concepts of tooth fairy and similar company as the fundamental concept of God in the Christian faith in relation to the universe, it is clear that you don't have the correct fundamental concept of God in relation to the universe in the Christian faith.


So, on concepts alone you are missing the issue of God or no God insofar as the fundamental concept of God in relation to the universe in the Christian faith is concerned.



But you are assuaging your to all appearances hatred for the correct fundamental concept of God in the Christian faith in relation to the universe, even though you claim not to hate God on your gratuitous assumption that God does not exist, by repeating concepts of tooth fairy, flying spaghetti monster, invisible pink unicorn, celestial teapot. etc.


You hate the concept even as concept, by bringing in vilifying concepts to conflate the concept of God with, which you don't have to if you don't harbor hatred in your heart.


You see, even in concept alone, the fundamental concept of God in the Christian faith in relation to the universe, namely:

Maker of everything that is not God Himself,​

stirs up so much consternation of hate in your whole neurology that you cannot keep to equanimity, but have to resort to derogatory epithets like the characters of tooth fairy, flying spaghetti monster, invisible pink unicorn, celestial teapot, when you know that the concept of God etc. is not similar to the concepts of these characters -- unless in your own arbitrary construction owing to your hatred.


Summing up, you don't have the correct fundamental concept of God in relation to the universe in the Christian faith, namely:

God is the maker of everything that is not God Himself.​

That is the whole point of this thread, namely:

Atheists' non-fundamental concept of God in relation to the universe.​

Hope you see the whole point here.





Pachomius

 

[Jade Margery]

Don't you ever get tired of typing "fundamental concept of God in the Christian faith in relation to the universe"?

You used it seven times in your last post. If I had a dollar for every time you've used it in this thread, I could probably buy myself a brand new video game.

It's incredible... I've seen posters who act like they want to discuss something, but then only repeat their own view with every new post while ignoring everyone else's comments or rebuttals, but you up the ante and repeat yourself half a dozen times in twice as many sentences. If you have no interest in listening to other people, why should we listen to you?

 

[Pachomius]

14th May 2011, 04:18 PM
Gracchus
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Originally Posted by Pachomius
What is the fundamental concept of God in relation to the universe?​

That is like asking what the relationship is between Russel's Teapot and the Flying Spaghetti Monster and the asteroid belt, or the Invisible Pink Unicorn and Beijing.

As a Christian theist I will say that the fundamental concept of God in relation to the universe is that God is the creator of the universe.​

What about other Christians here and also non-Christians?​

Brahma creates, Vishnu preserves, and Shiva destroys. If a god is or gods arpostulated at all someone has made some baseless statement about his or their "fundamental" nature(s).

It is like asking whether Goldilocks had a blue hair ribbon or a red one, based upon a personality assessment.

This is one poster who is into diversionary thinking and writing.


I called him a liar and started thread to expatiate on his lies, but the admin canceled it and gave me a counseling message.

I promised him not to call him a liar anymore and to come back to the thread there, but he has not returned.


I learned from him that he is not really an atheist but a panentheist, one who maintains that God is in everything and everything is in God.

I told him that is all right in a poetic sense, but come to think of it, also very correct, because God is everywhere and operates everything, and He is of course above and beyond everything tht is not God Himself.


Anyway, paging Gracchus, please join this thread, and you can give your insights into atheists' non-fundamental concepts of God in relation to the universe in the Christian faith.


Now, please, atheists and non-Christians in this Christian forum, abstain from all such utterances which on the one hand betray your lack of correct information on the true fundamental concept of God in relation to the universe, namely:

Maker of everything that is not God Himself.​

And on the other hand, by bringing in other concepts not at all equivalent to the true concept of God etc., you are leading people like myself from your words alone of tooth fairy, etc., that you are resorting to insulting Christians and God Himself, even just the correct concept of God etc., and arming yourself with a escape valve of phoney intellectual finesse, when people do see hatred in you instead of serious concentration on an issue.





Pachomius

 

[Jro]

It is clear that you atheists who keep defending your concepts of tooth fairy and similar company as the fundamental concept of God in the Christian faith in relation to the universe, it is clear that you don't have the correct fundamental concept of God in relation to the universe in the Christian faith.

Which is why we're asking you to correct it and explain what it is about the concept that makes a belief in god different from a belief in the tooth fairy. I know that christians think god created the universe, just as the other religions people believe that other gods are responsible for creating the universe. What I want to know is 1) Why you believe that this is important 2) What makes the Christian account special so that we should concern ourselves with it above other creation accounts 3) What you're really hoping to get out of this thread.

But you are assuaging your to all appearances hatred for the correct fundamental concept of God in the Christian faith in relation to the universe, even though you claim not to hate God on your gratuitous assumption that God does not exist, by repeating concepts of tooth fairy, flying spaghetti monster, invisible pink unicorn, celestial teapot. etc.

You hate the concept even as concept, by bringing in vilifying concepts to conflate the concept of God with, which you don't have to if you don't harbor hatred in your heart.

Not true. I don't hate the tooth fairy, flying spaghetti monster, invisible pink unicorns OR a celestial tea pot. Or god for that matter. I'm not vilifying any of them by comparing them to each other, I'm commenting on a similarity that I perceive. Just like I see no evidence for a tooth fairy, and thus no reason to believe in it, I see no evidence for god, and thus no reason to believe in him. Again, this is not about the concepts, it is about unsubstantiated and unsupported belief. It's just like, my opinion man. It seems like you want to have a discussion with atheists about this, so maybe be a bit more patient and answer people's questions rather than just getting offended when people don't want to talk about exactly what you want to talk about.

stirs up so much consternation of hate in your whole neurology that you cannot keep to equanimity, but have to resort to derogatory epithets like the characters of tooth fairy, flying spaghetti monster, invisible pink unicorn, celestial teapot, when you know that the concept of God etc. is not similar to the concepts of these characters -- unless in your own arbitrary construction owing to your hatred.

Summing up, you don't have the correct fundamental concept of God in relation to the universe in the Christian faith, namely:

God is the maker of everything that is not God Himself.​

It doesn't follow that this makes the concept of god immune to the same problems that the tooth fairy, fsm, etc. have- you might as well say "The tooth fairy does not need to be evidenced because she takes teeth." What about this concept makes god different from a) other gods and b) other unevidenced metaphysical beasties.

Hope you see the whole point here.

Nope, still lost. You've got to explain a bit more about this than just one sentence repeated over and over.

 

[Pachomius]

18th May 2011, 09:18 AM

Gracchus
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Originally Posted by Pachomius
Well, if you are an atheist who writes against the existence of God in the Christian faith in relation to the universe, please then don't bring in the flying spaghetti monster, the invisible pink unicorn, the celestial teapot, and similar flippant concepts and names to refer to God.​

The reason that people bring up the Flying Spaghetti Monster, the Invisible Pink Unicorn, and Russel's Teapot, is not to use those terms to refer to God, but to point out that there is exactly as much reason to believe in them as there is to believe in God. In fact there is more reason to believe in these things because they have attributes that are observable in principle, as opposed to God who has no observable attributes.

About Christians who do not know the fundamental concept of God in the Christian faith in relation to the universe, namely, that God is the creator of the universe, this issue is of concern to the leaders of the Christian faith.

And they discuss whether such Christians who do not know can get to the kingdom of God.​

So then, you have to have some intellectually unfounded and entirely theoretical belief to enter the Kingdom? You can't get in just by being a decent human being? I know lots of Christians believe this. The can murder, commit adulteries, molest children, lie cheat and steal, but because they believe something completely unsubstantiated they are "saved".

Did you know that Christians used to fight and kill each other over the question of whether the Son was of the same substance as the Father (homousion) or of a similar substance to the Father (homoiusion)? and that "substance" was by definition insubstantial! That didn't stop those men of faith from murdering and damning each other over that iota.

"Faith" has two meanings: On one hand it means belief. On the other hand it means trust. If you really believe or trust, then you will try to do the right thing. With practice you may even succeed occasionally. Or maybe you do the right thing just because it appeals to you. If I were God I would love those who loved what i loved, even if they had never heard of Me.

I would not be so forgiving perhaps, of those who believed in Me completely but went on doing the wrong thing in the confidence that they would be forgiven.

Not all Christians put their faith in a god who is a sadistic moron, but some of them do.

[ Bolding from Pachomius }​

Here is Gracchus again, he had at that point in the other thread won the first prize for engaging in vituperative name-calling on God.



There are some half facts and some sweeping lies in the post above, lies but material lies because I presume the man did not intend to speak truly informed lies (sic).


All in all I will give him his good faith, but why does he have to throw in a stink bomb at the very end, to smear God?


Unless his spleen is full of hatred for God, even in fundamental concept only, as the maker of everything that is not God Himself.


In a later post he tried to explain that in effect he was not insulting God, etc.

Better not to use such vituperative epithets on God in a Christian forum, so as not to have to explain yourself afterward, when you have already done your civil self a grievous wound, and Christian readers here an outrage.

Develop the habit of abstinence from all such derogatory name-calling on God, this is a Christian forum, and we take seriously the command of God not to take His name in vain.


On my part at the risk of being accused of undeserved self-commendation and sounding odious, I take it as my Christian duty to remind atheists and non-Christians here to guard their tongue in referring to God even just the concept of.





Pachomius