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Atheists' non-fundamental concept of God in relation to the universe.
- Thread starter Pachomius
- Start date
Actually, I'm having a bit of trouble getting it. Could you please repeat everything you've said throughout this entire thread in a different way? Perhaps you could write a few posts even longer than what you have so far to help everyone understand.
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Jade Margery
Stranger in a strange land
I think this may be the first time I've ever been happy to see a thread godwin'd.
Might push the thread in a more interesting, less repetitive direction here... Certainly no one is forced to follow me on this merry little tangent, just thought I'd have fun with some comparisons.
Let us see the fundamental difference between god and Hitler. (I'm assuming, for the sake of this argument, that you are not a universalist, Ephesia. Please excuse me if I'm wrong.)
In Hitler's Germany, German citizens or soldiers who opposed Hitler were either executed or sent to the camps along with the Jews.
So:
Disobey Hitler --> Get killed and/or tortured.
Disobey god --> Get killed, eventually, AND THEN tortured. Forever.
Yes, I can certainly see how people in the second group have more of a choice than people in the first.
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< staff edit > < staff edit >
< staff edit > < staff edit >
< staff edit > < staff edit >
I looked for a thread in this here philosophy board on one that is the most closest to the exposition of the existence or non-existence of God in the Christian faith in relation to the universe, which is that
I looked up the public profile of this poster to learn whether he is an atheist or whatever, but on a very quick glance, I can't see any designation from his public profile.
Here are the first two posts of this thread.
No, I didn't look up the public profile of Rilke's Granddaughter, but I think in her post she is being very relevant to the subject of the thread in bringing up the matter of the definition of God and also the matter of the definition of evidence.
I will not here take up the definition of evidence.
But I will try to find out how atheists < staff edit > , understands God in relation to the universe in the Christian faith.
If you are one of the participants in the thread Evidence for God and you are still actively around, you might care to tell readers here whether it was ever mentioned at all there that God in relation to the universe in the Christian faith is:
By the way if you atheists who are always harping on evidence know of any at least apparently exhaustive treatment of evidence in the web, absolutely free to access or at most with a simple registration only, please let me know, for I really am most excited to read on what is evidence which is so very very very important to atheists.
Let me put it this way, about evidence, what is the fundamental concept of evidence for atheists in relation to the universe?
< staff edit >
Pachomius
< staff edit > < staff edit >
< staff edit > < staff edit >
I looked for a thread in this here philosophy board on one that is the most closest to the exposition of the existence or non-existence of God in the Christian faith in relation to the universe, which is that
God is the maker of everything that is not God Himself.
And here, I found this thread entitled, "Evidence for God," by Wiccan_Child.
I looked up the public profile of this poster to learn whether he is an atheist or whatever, but on a very quick glance, I can't see any designation from his public profile.
Here are the first two posts of this thread.
No, I didn't look up the public profile of Rilke's Granddaughter, but I think in her post she is being very relevant to the subject of the thread in bringing up the matter of the definition of God and also the matter of the definition of evidence.
I will not here take up the definition of evidence.
But I will try to find out how atheists < staff edit > , understands God in relation to the universe in the Christian faith.
If you are one of the participants in the thread Evidence for God and you are still actively around, you might care to tell readers here whether it was ever mentioned at all there that God in relation to the universe in the Christian faith is:
Maker of everything that is not God Himself.
< staff edit >
By the way if you atheists who are always harping on evidence know of any at least apparently exhaustive treatment of evidence in the web, absolutely free to access or at most with a simple registration only, please let me know, for I really am most excited to read on what is evidence which is so very very very important to atheists.
Let me put it this way, about evidence, what is the fundamental concept of evidence for atheists in relation to the universe?
< staff edit >
Pachomius
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There are so many ad hominem fallacies in there I can't even...
Could you clearly and succinctly just state the purpose of your thread, < staff edit >
Could you clearly and succinctly just state the purpose of your thread, < staff edit >
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EphesiaNZ
It's me! Who else could it be...
I know this is an ideal but, what about if everyone had said "NO" to despots like Hitler? As we know too Hitler wasn't the first tyrant in history to persecute Jews/Christians - the Roman's probably did one of the worst jobs on these people but they met their fate with God in their hearts.
With God, you can truly repent at the last moment but I doubt saying sorry to the Nazi's would have got you anywhere...
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Jade Margery
Stranger in a strange land
What if everyone said "NO" to a god that tortures people for eternity for arbitrary reasons? And the Christians have more than a few tyrants on their historical side of the fence. Including Hitler, despite the recent attempts to white-wash him as an unbeliever. (Stalin was godless. Legitimately godless. Hitler was a christian. Every demographic has its nutjobs and monsters.)
So, with god you can always repent on your death bed. That's assuming you're lucky enough to have a death bed. If you get smacked by a bus or fall in an open manhole or take a bullet to the face in combat, well, tough cookies. Torture forever!
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EphesiaNZ
It's me! Who else could it be...
Firstly, you can say no to God - no one is forcing you or anyone else to believe and if anyone is forced then this is not the correct way to God.
Hitler from what I have read was raised as a Catholic but threw it away when his brains went to his backside but he seemed not to be atheist either after that.
Yes, a bit unfortunate if you get struck by a bus before you repent - your choice when you do it, so sooner the better is the motto here.
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Jade Margery
Stranger in a strange land
Firstly, you can say no to God - no one is forcing you or anyone else to believe and if anyone is forced then this is not the correct way to God.
Hitler from what I have read was raised as a Catholic but threw it away when his brains went to his backside but he seemed not to be atheist either after that.
Yes, a bit unfortunate if you get struck by a bus before you repent - your choice when you do it, so sooner the better is the motto here.
The point is that giving someone a choice between doing what you tell them and death/torture is not actually a choice. Even if you can let them change their mind at the last minute, it's still a case of coercion.
If a man captured a woman and told her, 'Have sex with me or I will shoot you dead', and that man was later quite justifiably on trial for rape, he couldn't say "Well, she chose to have sex with me so it wasn't rape!" When you tell someone they are free to make a choice, but then threaten them disproportional punishment for making the 'wrong' choice, then they were never really free to choose, were they?
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EphesiaNZ
It's me! Who else could it be...
That's a very conditional scenario you paint there. If I was in a situation where I had a deranged person holding a gun to my head and was telling me do what he said or die then, how would I be sure that they would not kill me after I did the action they required. In your scenario that happens quite often.
When you are threatened you really have no "free choice" but you do have a choice - I think that's where the argument lies.
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Jade Margery
Stranger in a strange land
It is also quite possible that he is bluffing and has no bullets or wouldn't risk a murder charge. Just as it is very possible there is no hell. What the man would or wouldn't do is beside the point: Using a threat beyond the natural consequences of an action, particularly pertaining to death or pain, means you deny the other person a real choice.
That is exactly what I mean. What is the basic difference between 'Do what I say or I will shoot you.' and 'Do what I say or I will have you tortured forever.' Both are threats. The only difference is that one is infinitely worse than the other--I would much rather be shot than tortured for eternity.
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I will send tomorrow a pm to Wiccan_Child and ask him whether he had a concise and to the point fundamental concept of God in relation to the universe in the Christian faith.
And here it is again:
There can't be too much repetition of that fundamental concept of God in relation to the universe in the Christian faith.
I have read works on no God but never in them come across any fundamental concept of God in relation to the universe in the Christian faith.
The authors talk about tooth fairy, invisible pink unicorn, Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, Bearded Old Man in the Sky, celestial teapot, flying spaghetti Monster.
Even Russell -- he seems to have started the trend -- went that direction, most unworthy of him and his much vaunted intelligence and mental acuity and discriminating skill in mathematics.
Anyway, he was one very confused mind when it comes to the very big picture of existence from oneself and existence from another.
And very loose and versatile with the word, meaningless, pronouncing everything and anything he does not want to channel his brain cells to attend to, because it is not in consonance with his lifestyle, with the label, meaningless.
Generally there are countless gripes from atheists against God in all times and climes, but never one relevant fundamental concept of God in relation to the universe in the Christian faith.
Pachomius
And here it is again:
Maker of everything that is not God Himself.
There can't be too much repetition of that fundamental concept of God in relation to the universe in the Christian faith.
I have read works on no God but never in them come across any fundamental concept of God in relation to the universe in the Christian faith.
The authors talk about tooth fairy, invisible pink unicorn, Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, Bearded Old Man in the Sky, celestial teapot, flying spaghetti Monster.
Even Russell -- he seems to have started the trend -- went that direction, most unworthy of him and his much vaunted intelligence and mental acuity and discriminating skill in mathematics.
Anyway, he was one very confused mind when it comes to the very big picture of existence from oneself and existence from another.
And very loose and versatile with the word, meaningless, pronouncing everything and anything he does not want to channel his brain cells to attend to, because it is not in consonance with his lifestyle, with the label, meaningless.
Generally there are countless gripes from atheists against God in all times and climes, but never one relevant fundamental concept of God in relation to the universe in the Christian faith.
Pachomius
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ToHoldNothing
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The problem here is that a fundamental concept of God in relation to the universe in the Christian faith presumes atheists only disbelieve in the Christian god, which isn't the case. We need a catch all fundamental concept of God in relation to the universe moreso.
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sandwiches
Mas sabe el diablo por viejo que por diablo.
So, what was the point of the thread, again? I'm still as lost as I was from reading the OP.
Are you trying to convince people of something? Are you asking a question? What are you saying?
And there's a QUOTE BUTTON. Use it, please. It seems like you're talking to yourself as you're not answering anything anyone has said so far.
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Asking atheist to explain their understanding of God calls to mind the question of whether or not you quite know what the word "atheist," means. I understand what you're trying to ask, but it's a pretty difficult question for atheists to answer.
Let me try an analogy by way of the currently popular superhero movies trend to explain why it is difficult... I'm sorry, it's what came to mind.
Suppose you were to tell me you didn't like fiction much, definitely not speculative fiction and you certainly have no interest in comic books. Suppose in response, I were to ask you who the true "Green Lantern" is.
Now, there have been five or six distinct, fictional people who have been called the "Green Lantern" within DC comics official continuity. Perhaps I explain that to you, but then ask how you can possibly know you're not a fan of the series if you don't have a favorite Lantern, or you don't know which one came first?
So who is the true Green Lantern? Which of them best embodies the spirit of the Green Lantern?
Even if you're willing to have this conversation with me, why should I expect you to be able to answer? You'd have to do quite a bit of research into material that does not really interest you, and you wouldn't learn anything relevant to yourself in that process.
Now, the analogy's not perfect. Gods are rather a heavier element in our culture than comic-book superheros, but I think it illustrates the core problem here. Atheists don't typically have their own god-concept (fundamental or otherwise) anymore than someone who doesn't read comics typically has an opinion on who the true Green Lantern is.
The question you're asking doesn't make a lot of sense to the people you're asking it of.
Let me try an analogy by way of the currently popular superhero movies trend to explain why it is difficult... I'm sorry, it's what came to mind.
Suppose you were to tell me you didn't like fiction much, definitely not speculative fiction and you certainly have no interest in comic books. Suppose in response, I were to ask you who the true "Green Lantern" is.
Now, there have been five or six distinct, fictional people who have been called the "Green Lantern" within DC comics official continuity. Perhaps I explain that to you, but then ask how you can possibly know you're not a fan of the series if you don't have a favorite Lantern, or you don't know which one came first?
So who is the true Green Lantern? Which of them best embodies the spirit of the Green Lantern?
Even if you're willing to have this conversation with me, why should I expect you to be able to answer? You'd have to do quite a bit of research into material that does not really interest you, and you wouldn't learn anything relevant to yourself in that process.
Now, the analogy's not perfect. Gods are rather a heavier element in our culture than comic-book superheros, but I think it illustrates the core problem here. Atheists don't typically have their own god-concept (fundamental or otherwise) anymore than someone who doesn't read comics typically has an opinion on who the true Green Lantern is.
The question you're asking doesn't make a lot of sense to the people you're asking it of.
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Jade Margery
Stranger in a strange land
For most atheists on this site, you can assume we've looked into the "Green Lantern" history and continuity and versions. After all, many atheists here used to be christians, and even those who weren't have had good reason to bone up on their scripture, to the point that many atheists know more about the bible and the history of the christian faith than some christians. When a book is often being used to condemn you and tell you you'll be tortured forever, that's the sort of thing you read up on.
The question he's asking doesn't make a lot of sense for an entirely different reason. He has been asked for clarification, and has responded only with parroting what he said before. I'd say the only reason most of us are even still here is for the amusement of seeing him do it over and over again. If this thread was turned into a drinking game, I could get totally smashed about three pages in.
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I tried to address that element somewhat, but I'll elaborate...
There are multiple god-concepts. They are not in agreement with one another. An atheist can do their homework and learn about each of those concepts and their history and the theology surrounding them and become extremely knowledgeable about them.
They still don't have a god-concept of their own, though.
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